Byalant-First flight capable MS?

[domtropen]

But your word sounds like Asshimar and Z cannot sustain their flight though . On the other hand IIRC Asshimar seems to be able to hover and fly around a bit in MS form, but rather slow. Not so sure if Z can move around in midair in MS form or not.

High power generator doesn't solve the problem of using up propellant, so without the majority of thrusters being jet oy hybrid jet-rocket the problem of running out of propellant quickly is still a problem. Byalant seems to solve this by being able to carry more propellant and sacrificing its weapon load by having small claws/ beam gun combo instead of hands and big beam rifle.

IIRC V2 seems to be able to fly high, but not so sure in the episode against Zanneck if V2 does reach Zanneck's position or not. Psyco Mk III is only in the fighting videogame though.

[jam!]

But your word sounds like Asshimar and Z cannot sustain their flight though . On the other hand IIRC Asshimar seems to be able to hover and fly around a bit in MS form, but rather slow. Not so sure if Z can move around in midair in MS form or not.

They can't. They do the same thing other MS with high-powered thrusters do: repeatedly use bursts of thrust to alter their aerial elevation. For instance, in the movies when Mk II is fighting the Gaplant, it's shield is destroyed and it starts to fall. Camille then uses the thrusters to catch up to his flying platform. Basically, the MS can perform rocket jumps in mid-air but they cannot fly.

High power generator doesn't solve the problem of using up propellant, so without the majority of thrusters being jet oy hybrid jet-rocket the problem of running out of propellant quickly is still a problem. Byalant seems to solve this by being able to carry more propellant and sacrificing its weapon load by having small claws/ beam gun combo instead of hands and big beam rifle.

I think that's what I said too.

[auriga]

Well... There is the Byalant's precursor, the Icarus Unit. But then again, it appears in a side story and it isn't strictly a MS built for flight; rather, it's the Hazel with add-on parts. That, and I don't know much about its performance.

So yeah, unless someone comes up with another MS, I'd concede to the Byalant. Besides, it's another reason for me to like it.

[toysdream]

But your word sounds like Asshimar and Z cannot sustain their flight though . On the other hand IIRC Asshimar seems to be able to hover and fly around a bit in MS form, but rather slow. Not so sure if Z can move around in midair in MS form or not.

They can't. They do the same thing other MS with high-powered thrusters do: repeatedly use bursts of thrust to alter their aerial elevation. For instance, in the movies when Mk II is fighting the Gaplant, it's shield is destroyed and it starts to fall. Camille then uses the thrusters to catch up to his flying platform. Basically, the MS can perform rocket jumps in mid-air but they cannot fly.

You sound awfully certain here, but do you really have evidence to support this sweeping distinction? Judging from the animation, the mobile sut forms of the Asshimar and Zeta Gundam seem every bit as capable of midair maneuvering as the Byarlant. When it first appears, the Asshimar frequently flies around in MS form attacking the ground-bound heroes, and during the Kilimanjaro and Dakar episodes the Zeta flies around in mobile suit form as well. These aren't just rocket-assisted jumps, either, so I can't see how these examples are any different from the Byarlant.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

As for the Gouf Flight Test Type, it's never been described as having heat problems. The original version simply had a short cruising range due to its limited fuel supply, and the H-4 version proved explosion-prone due to its flaky new engines. These problems were presumably solved in the Gouf Flight Type that appears in The 08th MS Team.

-- Mark

The MS-07H8s in 08th team seem capable fo flying without much trouble, and as someone already mentioned, they even catch up with the Zanzibar, but since they appear only briefly, we don't know how they hold out after flying for long periods of time or at higher altitudes.

When checking the profile I noticed that Mahq has these Gouf Flight Types also listed under the Advance of Zeta photonovel. It might be a longshot, but if anyone who has seen this novel could share any additional info about the these Goufs, maybe we could have a better understanding on their capabilities and limits.

The instruction manual from the model kit might provide useful info as well.

[Dean_the_Young]

I could be wrong, but wasn't most of the extensive Ashimar MS combat either in free-fall conditions or in a combination where the MS mode was used for speed and altitude and then MS for maneuverability and attack until more height was needed? The only case of semi-flight that I can remember from either MS is at Dakar when Kamille and whats-his-face stop the falling Ashimar, and even then they got to the point in MS mode.

What examples of thorough sustained atmospheric flight are you thinking of? From either suit?

[domtropen]

In Z movie I Asshimar in MS mode can fly circle and up and down around Arumada, and Gaplant in MS mode can fly up, down and around too but need to transform back to MA for speed. Asshimar can even fly in MA mode with one leg lost [and associate jet engines], something I am not sure if Z or Gaplant can do.

On the other hand even with firing up thrusters periodatically to gain altitude, if any MS can do that to stay up in the air continuously for 10-20 minutes without landing on platform, that would be more or less close to flight and is pretty capable of aerial combat against slower enemy units [not against more manueverable MS, MA, or aircraft]. Even then most of Gryps era MSs cannot do so.

[jam!]

I would agree with domtropen but like the previous thread, we've come to the question of "what is flight"?

If flight is simply being able to perform extended aerial combat with no support systems then there are many Gryps era MS which qualify for that role and AFAIK, the Gouf H8 would definitely be one of the first (if not THE first) considering how it was able to catch up to a shuttle racing towards escape velocity hence it is very fast in the air and can gain altitude very quickly and efficiently.

[domtropen]

As Mark pointed out early planes can fly for minutes and that's counted as flight. Many birds cruise through the sky by gliding with some wing beating.

Most Gryps era conventional MSs don't seem to be able to fly for long. They have to land on something to jump again, and their thrusters are unlikely to keep thrusting continuously for 10-20 minutes. TMS and Byalant can maintain their flights either by carrying more propellant than usual or having jet or hybrid engines. Gouf flight types have jet engines in their legs, but there seems to be problems preventing them to fly for long periods. That may make Byalant the 1st "conventional" MS that can fly and combat in midair for long enough to be considered as viable aerial MS.

[toysdream]

Maybe I'm just uncharacteristically mellow today, but I think I agreed with all of the last few posts.

I could be wrong, but wasn't most of the extensive Ashimar MS combat either in free-fall conditions or in a combination where the MS mode was used for speed and altitude and then MS for maneuverability and attack until more height was needed?

I just scanned through all the Zeta episodes dealing with aerial combat, and I think that's about right. The Asshimar and Gaplant tend to use their MA forms to move about and gain altitude, allowing them to switch to their MS forms to dodge and dogfight in freefall. Some highlights:


In episode 13 of Zeta Gundam, the Asshimar stays up in the air most of the time, touching down only twice to grapple the Gundam Mark II. On the other hand, it's constantly switching back and forth between MS and MS forms, and when it's trying to chase the HLV at the end of the episode it finally breaks off the pursuit as it turns back into a mobile suit to fend off Kamille.

In episode 14, Rosamia endorses your description with her own dialogue; changing her Gaplant into MS form to duel Kamille, she exclaims that "Even in freefall, mine's better!" Of course, the rocket-powered Gaplant has its own issues, and can't even reach the battlefield under its own power; in this episode it uses a booster, and in the next one a Base Jabber.

On the other hand, episode 14 also ends with an extended dogfight between the Asshimar, Gundam Mark II, and Hyaku Shiki. The Asshimar remains in MS form almost all the way through the battle, while the AEUG suits also manage to stay aloft the whole time, only occasionally hopping onto the Audhumla for a rest. In fact, the episode ends with the Mark II and Hyaku Shiki hovering in midair as they pick up Amuro Ray, as if they have all the time in the world. I'm not sure if we should count this as evidence against the Asshimar's flight abilities or for those of the Mark II and Hyaku Shiki, but either way it seems fair to say that all these machines are roughly comparable.

Episodes 15 and 16 also show the Asshimar and Gaplant in a fairly good light. Rosamia uses the Gaplant's MS form to pursue and shoot down the Dodai-riding Gundam Mark II, and Buran uses the Asshimar's MS form to climb out of the way of enemy bazooka barrages not once but twice during episode 16--one of the only cases where the Asshimar doesn't take the time to transform before boosting upward.

In the Dakar battle of episode 37, we see a little more aerial Asshimar action that doesn't really add to what we saw in the earlier episodes, but we do see some impressive performance from the Byarlant. Not only does Jerid launch from his Garuda-class carrier without a Base Jabber, but he then flies all the way to Dakar and fights an extended midair battle. Although the Zeta Gundam spends most of its time in Wave Rider form, it does engage in a short dogfight with the Byarlant, in which its MS form is able to match the Byarlant move for move.

In episode 38, on the other hand, the Byarlant launches on a Base Jabber and doesn't leave it for the duration of the battle. In fact, when Jerid gets knocked off his Base Jabber, his Byarlant falls helplessly into the sea. On reflection, my best guess here is that the Audhumla is flying so high (its typical altitude for shuttle launches is 30,000 meters, according to the Zeta Gundam Historica series) that it's simply past the Byarlant's maximum ceiling.


So, what have we got here? For the most part, all of these machines seem roughly equal when it comes to short midair battles. Even if they're just alternating between rocket-assisted jumps and intervals of freefall, the Gundam Mark II and Hyaku Shiki are able to fight extended midair battles in scenarios like episode 14, and the Zeta's MS form is able to match the Byarlant during the skirmish over Dakar. The Asshimar and Gaplant have similar capabilities in MS form, and their ability to switch into MA form for a speed or altitude boost means that they can stay in the air almost indefinitely. On the other hand, only the Asshimar, Byarlant, and Zeta Gundam can actually fly to the battlefield under their own power, and only the Byarlant can do that without transforming.

Going back to the One Year War, we can probably apply the same kind of distinction to the various iterations of the Gouf Flight Type. The original MS-07H model was able to take off and fight in midair, but its cruising range was too limited for practical use. The MS-07H-8, which fixed this problem and also didn't explode at random, would presumably give the Byarlant stiff competition.

All in all, I still think the term "sustained flight" is being taken too narrowly. As I pointed out in the last thread on this subject, the Me-163 rocket fighter that Germany deployed in World War II had a flight time of less than ten minutes, but I doubt anyone would argue that it couldn't actually fly. I think it's fair to say that machines like the Gundam Mark II and Hyaku Shiki are just as flight-capable as the Me-163, especially given their performance in episode 14. The Byarlant certainly has better cruising range, but as far as the title of this thread is concerned I think it's a stretch to call it "the first flight-capable mobile suit."

-- Mark

[Dean_the_Young]

Wow Mark, you have gotten mellow in your age.

I like your analogy of the AEUG MS and the Me-163. Perhaps instead of just "first flight capable", we should decide what to change it to. First self-sustained continuous atmospheric flight?

[domtropen]

I would say that Mk II and Shiki are more capable than many other mp non-transformable MSs of its time in the air. A quick look at Mk II's stat by the book shows that its backpack is quite impressive with more than 80,000 kg thrust. Its outer leg thrusters should not be weaker than OYW MSs, so that may give additional 6,000-12,000 kg thrust per leg. Shiki's stats may be a bit off [it is listed as nearly as heavy as Rick Dias so either its stat or Rick Dias's stat is in error], but its stat still gives the backpack thrust to above 70,000 kg and probably similar thrust from leg thrusters as Mk II. Both are a few tons lighter than mp non-TMSs at their time too. Thus it is not surprising that they can fight in the air better and for longer duration than Nemo, Hizack or Act Zaku.

[Dean_the_Young]

To keep this topic alive (and perhaps turn it into the semi-official Byalant topic), why is the Byalant sometimes called under-armed? It has two beam sabres (one of which killed the Psycho gundam), and two mega-particle guns, and aren't those beam-rifles by another name?

So two close weapons, and two one-hit-kill (ignoring shields) long-range weapons. Considering how rarely even the Zeta used its vulcans or missiles, what's wrong with it?

[Ascension]

You're an official Jerid fanboy... you shouldn't be expected to understand...


No, seriously, it's a good question. I guess it might just be one of those profile typing errors you occasionally see around MAHQ...

[Shmoo Zero Omega]

This all makes you wonder why they just didn't bother strapping jet engines to an MS... I mean, with a fusion reactor, you have pretty much limitless power and thus, limitless flight time, since air is your propellant. Jets in combination with rockets would be a potent combination.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

To keep this topic alive (and perhaps turn it into the semi-official Byalant topic), why is the Byalant sometimes called under-armed? It has two beam sabres (one of which killed the Psycho gundam), and two mega-particle guns, and aren't those beam-rifles by another name?

So two close weapons, and two one-hit-kill (ignoring shields) long-range weapons. Considering how rarely even the Zeta used its vulcans or missiles, what's wrong with it?

1.) Don't forget that the only reason it even "beat" the Psyco Gundam was before Four intentionally put the Psyco Gundam's HEAD (which also happens to be right where the cockpit is) into the Byalant's path to protect the Zeta. If he were ACTUALLY fighting it in some way, it's highly doubtful that he'd come close to winning.

2.) Mega particle guns, beam rifles, mega beam cannons, etc are SOMETIMES associated, but not always the same. Maybe in terms of general concept like how they work, but nowhere near in terms of power issues.

Though, "standard" mega particle guns on Mobile Suits (while obviously varying in output) are generally similar to beam rifles, the main difference being that mega particle guns are typically fixed weapons (from what I've noticed). Beam Rifles are handheld, optional armaments a majority of the time with few exceptions (like the Gaplant).

When you consider that the Byalant ONLY has 2 mega particle guns and 2 beam sabers and compare it to other standard MS of the time, it IS quite underarmed in weaponry. Other MS of the time are pretty multi-roled in being able to have several different weapons armed for various situations or, in general, just have more weaponry. Compare the various MS from Zeta to the Byalant and you'll see...like the Hambrabi is a much more capable MS and even saw some limited production because of it.

And consider the fact that the Titans are a group who want powerful MS at lower costs. The Byalant is really not that much better than most standard MS at the time besides a bit more speed and mobility. A similar problem that was run into with the Barzam. And even a lot of grunt MS have more weaponry with things like beam rifles, bazookas, beam sabers, vulcans, machine guns, scattering beam guns, missile launchers, grenades, grenade launchers, various mega launchers, etc, etc.

[domtropen]

From Dom onwards IIRC thermonuclear jet engine in UC need a little bit of propellant as heat transfer medium, so it does use some propellant but much less than rocket.

Wondering is there any big difference in the time from activation to the time the vehicle [MS or anything] take off between rocket and jet engines?