Opinion: Should variable MS/fighters be as good as either?

[Dean_the_Young]

Inspired by watching some Macross and gundam clips.

Do you think transforming giant robots should be as good in either jet or MS form as pure-planes and pure-MS? It's one thing to say "they have the advantages of both", but it's an entirely different for them to be better than both at both.

I personally have always felt that MS that turn into planes an such should be a good deal slower and unweildy as planes, and probably suffer serious limitations as MS, just from the fact that MS weigh so much more than planes. Seeing what is normally an MS out-dogfight a combat jet in jet form just doesn't seem right without special reasons.

Similarly, the variables that are plane first and then robots should not only suffer speed limitations from all the extra weight of transforming (and the structural defects necessary for the transformation), but should also make incredibally fragile MS due to focusing on weight reduction for the plane mode rather than armor.

[Gadget]

For starters, Macross Veritech fighters are way more advance than Gundams. The reason is that the Veritech fighters were develop from the Protodeviln, where as Gundam were Earth development. Veritech fighters can transit from atmospher into orbit, without any booster assist.

Shape is not important in space combat. There is no 'drag'. Veritech fighters got two type of engins. The 'main' engins, under the wings, and 4 vernier engins on its back. In the battaloid mode, speed is sacrifice for agility. In Gundams, it's much eaiser to strap a booster, like the Aliea Strike or the Booster sheild in Haezel.
Robot like MS are slower only in earth's orbit. And some early Gundams like the RX-79[G] cannot even fly. In Seed, only the later Gundams like the Freedom, and Justice and fly. And because of the Seed's Gundam design, to have max. firepower, the MS must be in hummoid mode. The Veritech fighters could not spam, it will just swarm the skies with lost of micro missiles with the FAST pack.

By post ZZ, or even post Sentinal, transformation MS are dud. It's just not worth the extra efford to make one.

By the way, the Marasume weights abouyt 46 tons. The VF-1 weights about 18 to 35 tons. Transforming MS are rather heavy.

[mcred23]

Don't forget that MS are quite a deal larger than most items out of Macross. To use the two you mentioned, the VF-1 is only 12.68 meters tall when in Battroid mode, while the Murasame stands 17.82 meters tall. It's probably better to compare Macross Veritech fighters to the mini-MS of Gundam, the Zolo would do better due to it's similar size and weight to the VF-1 (And, the Zolo transforms too).

[Hyakushiki]

In Macross the fighters are called variable fighters, Veritech is a term only used in Robotech. Yes they use two types of engines conventional engines for atmospheric flight and thermonuclear engines for space flight. Most OYW mobile suits weren't designed to fly, so that's an unfair comparison they're from different bases of technology. Transforming mobile suits would definitely be slower than VF's but thats only because they're planes that transform into robots rather than robots that transform into planes.

[Samster]

Yes they use two types of engines conventional engines for atmospheric flight and thermonuclear engines for space flight.

I was under the impression that all VF's used thermonuclear engines exclusively because conventional turbofan jet engines just ate fuel like there was no tomorrow thus severely limiting operational time and range. The only exception for this was the VF-0 and even then that was only because the thermonuclear engines were not ready at the time of their initial deployment.

[Hyakushiki]

Well I could be mistaken.

[Aegis]

All variable fighters excluding the VF-0 most definitely use thermonuclear engines only. The thermonuclear engine itself is perfectly fine for both space use and atmospheric use, though the old Valkyries would've still required assistance in order to exit a planet's atmosphere, something later variable fighters along the lines of the VF-19 don't need.

As for the original topic at hand, this is not a comparison between VFs and MS. This is a topic on transforming mechas in general, and whether such machines should actually be as effective in both modes as the animation seem to portray, or should they actually be limited in either one mode or both. Personally, I also don't expect a hybrid machine to be able to excel in a particular mode the way a non-transforming machine would do; rather, they should take advantage of their transformation from one mode to another, and build their moves around that the way Macross does with their variable fighters. Beyond all that, other variables thrown into this still has to be considered, like the fact we've got ultra tough armour for both machines to consider, especially with Gundam, along with other technological discoveries that have also made the duo modes look alot more effective.

[Recon 5]

Well, what we see in Macross Zero is that the variable fighters (for both sides) far exceed the capabilities of contemporary dedicated aircraft (the hero's F-15 comes to mind) when in plane mode.

For example, while the F-15s and MiGs only launch a pair of missiles at a time, the variable fighters can do an Itano Circus while in plane mode (WE NEED MICRO MISSILES ON OUR PLANES NOW!). However, that may be due to more advanced technology.

[quasadra]

shin actually managed to dodge the missile and fire back but when nora pulls a "Viffing" move and transform, thats when shin lost the fight. with this i say a vf is about at the same level as normal fighter in term of fighter mode. vfs fighter mode is not that great by itself, its gets a lot better with help from the variable design.

[Draco Starcloud]

I would think that transformable MS sacrifice a few good traits.

The ZZ was said to be less structurally sound due to its transformable parts. That's the only official disadvantage I've heard of, though I can guess there are plenty more, such as:

Shields being part of the transformation, in the Wing and Zeta especially. If either of those suits had their shields destroyed, they'd be less aerodynamic, which means atmospheric use wouldn't be as good.

Transformation parts are likely more vulnerable. Methuss aside, the parts needed to transform a suit are likely very sensitive; if, say, a Murasame got hit while transforming, it might be stuck in mid-transformation.

A Transformable MS is limited in its weapons options compared to dedicated MS and fighters. The more weapons a Transformer has in MS mode, the more parts it has to move around when it transforms. Also, a Transformer likely won't be able to have hardpoints on its wings since it would fold any wings it has up in MS mode.

I don't think cost is really an issue with Transformers since when they're used, they come in huge quantities: Axis/Neo-Zeon had lots of Gaza-Cs at least, the Titans fielded plenty of transformable units in good quantities, AEUG had their Methusses and lots of Zeta Gundam variants, League Militaire had more Victory Gundams than Gun-EZ/Gunblastors, and the Zanscare had lots of transformers themselves.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

The ZZ was said to be less structurally sound due to its transformable parts. That's the only official disadvantage I've heard of...

There's also the fact that it needs to dock first BEFORE actually being able to transform. As shown a couple times in the ZZ anime, usually, unless it's launched in its complete MS form already, an enemy(ies) could easily interfere with its docking sequence if not outright destroy one of the components, making it impossible to dock and transform without a team backing you up.

A Transformable MS is limited in its weapons options compared to dedicated MS and fighters. The more weapons a Transformer has in MS mode, the more parts it has to move around when it transforms. Also, a Transformer likely won't be able to have hardpoints on its wings since it would fold any wings it has up in MS mode.

That's true...there's also the fact that most transformable MS are limited to just whatever is fixed on them as a whole. Usually, the only handheld weaponry (besides beam sabers since they're usually stored) a transformable MS seems to have is a beam rifle of some kind. Most MS to have heavier/fancier/greater amounts of weaponry were usually just prototypes like the Messala, ZZ, Gabthley, etc.

I don't think cost is really an issue with Transformers since when they're used, they come in huge quantities: Axis/Neo-Zeon had lots of Gaza-Cs at least, the Titans fielded plenty of transformable units in good quantities, AEUG had their Methusses and lots of Zeta Gundam variants, League Militaire had more Victory Gundams than Gun-EZ/Gunblastors, and the Zanscare had lots of transformers themselves.

Cost can depend on the unit really. The Gaza series were all pretty simplistic MS overall. Simple transformation and basic weaponry. (in slightly higher quantities like missile launchers and such) Not to mention, it was based off of a construction MS, which are always very cheap. Nothing huge or flashy. Also, having a company willing to help you out of fear of attack doesn't hurt either for discounts maybe, lol.

Same with the Methuss (very simplistic) and the Zeta series. Overall, aside from the bio-sensor (which I don't think the others besides the original had), it's also pretty simplistic. Mostly just basic weaponry that any MS would have at the time (besides the hyper mega launcher... a beam rifle, vulcans, beam sabers). The only real unique function being the transformation itself.

Most of the Titans' transformable MS were prototypes that weren't really that numerical. Only exception being, as far as I know, the Asshimar. (which was deployed all over the world)

1 Psyco Gundam
1 Psyco Gundam Mark II
2 Gaplant (unless you count the TR-5 and such)
2 Gabthley
3 Hambrabi
3 Baund Doc

...and if you count Scirocco's MS, 1 Messala...and they all get destroyed, lol.

[Draco Starcloud]

The basic Gaplant had a few more units produced according to what little Titans Test Team I've read. Two of the team's pilots, the leader and the protagonist if I'm not mistaken, each had a Gaplant at the final battle of the Gryps Conflict, which leads me to believe the Gaplant got a limited production run.

[mcred23]

I don't think cost is really an issue with Transformers since when they're used, they come in huge quantities: Axis/Neo-Zeon had lots of Gaza-Cs at least, the Titans fielded plenty of transformable units in good quantities, AEUG had their Methusses and lots of Zeta Gundam variants, League Militaire had more Victory Gundams than Gun-EZ/Gunblastors, and the Zanscare had lots of transformers themselves.

I think cost is an issue if you want it to be a good mobile suit. Yeah, the Gaza-C was built in huge numbers and it could transform, but it was also a very poor MS and I've heard that it's frame could only stand up to a few transformations (Not sure how true that may be). Axis/Neo Zeon did build and deploy a number of other transforming designs (Several in or based on the Gaza line), but I'm unsure of what numbers these units were built in.

As for the other groups, the AEUG and Titans both field various transforming units, although I can't think of any that got more than a limited production run (Although everywhere you turn now, there are another four Z-Plus units showing up, so who knows what to make of that )

[Gadget]

But it doesn't explain why tranforming MS dissappeared after post Sentinal? If cost is not a problem, then the whole tranformation system is not really effective as a combat weapoon system. Like unable to spam in fighter mode?

And in Macoss Zero, Shin's F-14 squadron got shot down because the SV-51 is invisile to radar. They were taken by suprise. Same thing happen when the VF-21 flew over the VF-11. And the -51 narrowly escape being shot down by 'viffing' or 'gerring'.

The only dedicated transformation fighter/ms is the Orb's Murasame. Personally, I think it's just an updated cannon fodder as the Astrays are getting old. I'm not really sure what Athran did in the Saviour. He just transform a lot, get in close and uses his beam sabers. Good thing Kira stop him.

[turkishproverb]

...and if you count Scirocco's MS, 1 Messala...and they all get destroyed, lol.

Ah, messala wasn't destroyed. It just sorta...stopped being shown.

As for the main topic, I would think it would make a difference in most mech shows, but not on both sides. A Fighter/mech could be as good as another fighter, but that would weaken it as a mech, ir vise versa.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

But it doesn't explain why tranforming MS dissappeared after post Sentinal? If cost is not a problem, then the whole tranformation system is not really effective as a combat weapoon system. Like unable to spam in fighter mode?

Well, even though it's not canon (given it's a novel), there is the RGZ-95 ReZEL and the D-50C Loto from Gundam Unicorn...and we still can't forget, technically, the RGZ-91 Re-GZ too. I guess the transforming MS from Zeta and ZZ were, more or less, a fad that passed by for the series.

But, other reasons were mentioned...if not the cost, then it's simply because of other things like lack of weaponry, structure weakening, etc.

[mcred23]

But it doesn't explain why tranforming MS dissappeared after post Sentinal?

Because they didn't. A number of Zanscare MS, like the Zolo, transform into helicopter-like machines. Prior to that, the EFF kept using them with machines like the ill-fated F-50D (RXR-44) Guntank R-44.

However, it's pretty clear that the peak of transforming MS, and when they were most common, was in the mid-to-late UC 0080's. At that point, the technology was new and it offered a lot of new ideas. However, it didn't take too long for most people to relize that transforming MS really didn't make overly huge differences compared to normal mobile suits or armors, and had their share of issues (Stucture issues, cost, weapon issues, etc). It's not like transforming MA simply disappeared, they were still being used, there simply weren't dozens of different transformers around anymore.

[Dark Duel]

But it doesn't explain why tranforming MS dissappeared after post Sentinal?

Because they didn't. A number of Zanscare MS, like the Zolo, transform into helicopter-like machines. Prior to that, the EFF kept using them with machines like the ill-fated F-50D (RXR-44) Guntank R-44.

And according to recent retcons, there was also the F-50D's predecessor, the D-50C Loto, and the RGZ-95 ReZel.

[mcred23]

And according to recent retcons, there was also the F-50D's predecessor, the D-50C Loto, and the RGZ-95 ReZel.

Yeah, those were mentioned in the post right above mine, but I was trying to stick to things from the animated works for simplicity's sake.

[Draco Starcloud]

But it doesn't explain why tranforming MS dissappeared after post Sentinal?

Because they didn't. A number of Zanscare MS, like the Zolo, transform into helicopter-like machines. Prior to that, the EFF kept using them with machines like the ill-fated F-50D (RXR-44) Guntank R-44.

And according to recent retcons, there was also the F-50D's predecessor, the D-50C Loto, and the RGZ-95 ReZel.

And there was at least one Transforming MS during the Crossbone Gundam story.