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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:41 pm 
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The Zock, despite being able to hover, also has very limited mobility compared to standard MS because of its sheer size and bulk...heck, a Xamel would be able to move much faster and be a better supporter. Neither unit is really any better than the other overall in terms of land mobility...the Zock only has speed advantages if it was in the water.

And while sheer power-wise, the Guntank is not as great as the Zock, that does not automatically mean it has "better firepower" in every sense of the words.

While mega particle cannons are undoubtedly more powerful than conventional shells, missiles and such, what's the point if you can't even aim them anywhere besides forwards, backwards and, more or less, straight up into the air???

Where you are does not matter either. Let's say...if the Zock is stuck underwater while the Guntank is up on land behind some hill, what good do those beams do you??? The Guntank would have an advantage in this situation because it can fire right over the hill and still hit you via explosions, depending on how deep you are.

And it's not like beams can always just pierce straight through hills and mountains, so even the Zock comes onto land and the Guntank is behind hills, the Guntank can still keep shooting at it and have plenty of chances to hit it while the Zock would either have to waste its energy and risk overheating by shooting constantly at the hills or, most likely unsuccessfully, attempt to maneuver itself to where the Guntank is to be able to hit it with its beams.

This is why the Zock is not as good...it requires line-of-sight to be able to accurately hit its target(s) while the Guntank can mostly just spam the area with exploding shells and other weaponry and not ACTUALLY have to make physical contact with enemy MS to be able to damage/destroy them.

This is why, even though beam rifles became the primary equipment for MS, it NEVER phased out conventional weaponry usage...because there are many times where such conventional weaponry is simply more useful than beam weapons.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:47 pm 
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Well, I can argue with that, but the Guntank is also limited to long range, while the Zock can fit the bill for close and mid range support. While its mobility is inferior to the average MS, the Guntank uses treads, which are a lot slower. I guess it would depend on what kind of support, long range, the Guntank hands down, but anything else I'd lean to the Zock.


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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:01 pm 
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Actually, the Guntank is also capable of mid-range combat as well. Its cannons are mainly long-range, but they CAN be mid-range as shown in 08th MS Team and its "hands" can either be missiles or machine guns, so there's some mid-range abilities there too.

Close-range isn't too great an option for either MS, though. The Zock because of its size and lower mobility and the Guntank for its lack of melee-specific weaponry except for maybe machine guns, so in this sort of arguement, trying to argue one is better than the other using close-range as examples is a bit moot.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:25 pm 
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Why is close combat and undersea combat even an issue here anyway, when we're talking about a Fire Support unit?

If we wanted close combat, I'd say a Gouf or GM, and if we wanted underwater Fire Support, that's what the Juagg is made for.

In terms of actually having a reliable fire support on the ground though, Guntank would still be the way to go in my opinion, simply because it can do the job reliably, and is a simple mass produced machine that isn't a nightmare to store, refuel and repair.

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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:36 pm 
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Yep, and that reliability is shown many times in MSG and, thanks to that, also in 08th MS Team as a MPed unit while the Zock...well...it didn't even seem to make it past the 3 prototypes that were made...

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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:07 am 
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Phantomexe87 wrote:
The same can be said about the guntank being limited to ground combat.


Except that the Guntank can be used in space, even if it shouldn't be.

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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:13 am 
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For accuracy and battling in difficult terrain with lots of hills or obstacles my vote would go for the Guntank, but for firepower, underwater combat and combat in closed spaces such as a cave, the Zock is my choice.

Unfortunately I have only seen the movies so I don't now how fast the Zock is while hovering on land, how well it can or not maneuver while hovering or what takes to overheat it.

-Zeon had many amphibious MS that could perform well at both close and long range, in other words, front line combat and support fire. The Z'gok is one of the best examples, having excellent close range combat capabilities rounded up with the missile launchers on its head that, while not having the same range as the Guntank's cannons, were also capable of striking enemies behind a hill or with and obstacle between them.

-A cheaper option could have been the Juagg, which while more limited in ammo, could deal some heavy damage with its 320mm rocket launchers. Also, it has been suggested by UCGO and its high output reactor that it had 4 mega particle cannons on its torso, however this is not official.

-As for the Guntank remember that the surviving prototype at White Base is the only one equipped with rockets (in the OYW at least), and the MP model replaces these with regular machine guns, which have lower firepower but should definitely have more ammo than the rocket launchers. Also the prototype's 180mm cannons were replaced by 120mm cannon in the MPed version.

-The prototype Guntank seems to have been produced in even smaller numbers than the Guncannon, being the only other protoype I recall the one that Matt Healy's unit had in the Lost War Chronicles Manga. After its first deployment it got replaced with a GM[G] with a Gundam[G]'s 180mm cannon, which is a better choice in my opinion.

-In the end there is little to compare anyway: both the RX-75-4 and MSM-10 only had a few prototypes of each build, and the mass produced version of the Guntank was lacking the firepower and defense of the original, after all it was seen easily destroyed by machines guns, suggesting that like the GM, it replaced the luna-titanium alloy with cheaper titanium or a ceramic-composite.

-Also both units could easily be replaced by other more well rounded machines.

-As a side note, if the MSM-10 we were talking about was the variation from the Journey to Jaburo PS2 Game, then it would definitely be a victory for that Zock due to the greater mobility it has. However due to its size, it would definitely belong to the MA classification intead of an MS.


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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:23 am 
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was their any point to the zock having arms? i kno they had heavy claws on them but could they really manipulate anything? or be any sort of a close range threat? was there a weapon launcher in the center of the "hand"? i guess it could be used for a ramming attack a la z'gok but i would think that if the zock got into close range with a gm its bye bye big green.

now for the guntank, we know what its got on its fingers can definitely be used to fend off someone coming head on, unless they are in a blue gouf custom. also i would think if absolutely necessary the RCL cannons can be used at near point blank range which would mean a messy finish to anyone that close to the barrels of those bad boys. obviously even though it is a video game in fed vs zeon dx, that was my fave tactic when i had to use the guntank. move up close and BOOM. say hello to my 2 little friends. :twisted:

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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:49 am 
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Quote:
was their any point to the zock having arms? i kno they had heavy claws on them but could they really manipulate anything? or be any sort of a close range threat? was there a weapon launcher in the center of the "hand"?


I don't think the Zock has any weapons there and as specified, the melee is not much of a threat when the attack is slow and the unit is large. It could be interesting to see a weapon there but still it won't make much of a difference as it will be pretty hard to use.

So far I agree that Guntank is the better support unit. Zock is more destructive in terms of weaponry and hard to control and Guntank should be more maneuverable and can still deals extreme amount of damage both mid and long range. Let's say that I believe the blue gouf custom can do the same thing it did to the Guntank to the Zocks as long as it comes close enough. Both units are slow support-designed units anyway

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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:03 pm 
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Well, at least the Zock would be able to defend itself from that stab through the head the Gouf Custom made to the MP Guntank in 08th MS Team thanks to its maser on its head

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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:43 pm 
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two things are wrong with that:

1. why would a Gouf attack an ally?

2. the Gouf could just use the heat whip and electrify the darn thing, causing the beam weapons to go bye bye.

3. lets just say that the Gouf didn't use the above statement: the Zock is too big for the gouf to just jump on willy-nilly, the Gouf pilot(assuming he is at least capable of rational thought) would just fight it while on the ground.

4. I said only two and gave three, too late now, I already raped your eyes.

anyways ontopic, this is just like the "is the Gm better then the Rick Dom in space" topic. Federation wins due to a better unit. the guntank can give better support in both land and space, while the Zock is only good underwater. and that's good, assuming that the Zock is fighting a sub or naval vessel. the Zock wouldn't really be fighting and aquatic mobile suits.

and no I'm not counting the aqua Gm/Gundam, as what are the odds of that happening?

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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:20 pm 
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I still am amazed that the we have so few federation marine MS, I mean the GM Aqua and Waterproof Gundam don't really even look all that marine like... the Zeon actually created their own complete line of amphibious mobile suits, but all the Federation did was take a GM and put some scuba diving equipment on it and call it a marine MS. Doesn't Bandai see the potential for selling marine MS kits? Last I checked the Zeon marine MS sold pretty well, what gives?

I guess the Zock would be pretty effective if you were taking a beach or something, supporting to landing force.


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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:25 pm 
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Well the Feds didn't really need marine MS with their Navy battleships and anti-sub bombers.

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 Post Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:09 pm 
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Not to mention Zeon didn't really have too great a luxery with having battleships and everything. Zeon only had submarines, so of course they would need more MS meant for more specific roles like underwater combat. It would probably be much cheaper and more practical than trying to build fleets of submarines.

Heck, a single marine MS like even the Gogg is more than capable of taking out other submarines and battleships by themselves

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:07 am 
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Zock would not do well at close range, but it would not be easy to get close to Zock since Zock has no back and has MPCs surrounding the whole MS. However Zock would have shorter range of attack compared to Guntank's shell-firing cannon, and of course it cannot fire in arc like Guntank. IIRC Zock is faster than Guntank, and by hovering it would have quicker time moving around or reposition. I am not sure how strong is Zock's armor since the only Zock seen is destroyed by Gundam's beam rifle in Movie, but mp Guntanks can be destroyed by Gouf Custom's 3-barrel gatling gun. Guntank's other main weakness is its cockpit position as glassbox on the head: why can't the fed put its cockpit elsewhere safer...

Zock would be better at midrange or close support [not melee] blasting ahead and around while Guntank would be better giving long range support or bombardment from far back. Both are pretty much mobile turret however, which may be easily replaced by fast tanks or mobile cannons or stuffs like Hildolfr.

Off-topic but in Rickdom compared to GM topic Rickdom is MS designed to be fast attack unit against large target while GM is general purpose with emphasis on close combat, so GM [mainly fighter] has an edge in close range but Rickdom [attacker] can sink or damage ships better.


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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:03 am 
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Phantomexe87 wrote:
Granted the Guntank would have the element of surprise, but its lack of mobility still limits its effectiveness. This is also assuming, that the Zock has no support, between shots, the units it is supporting would give it cover from the sides. The Zock could at least defend itself from enemy fire, while the Guntank... well, an extreme example would be what Norris Packard did. The Guntank would have to be guarded at all times, while the Zock would support its battallion on the front. Not to mention the psychological difference, the Zock is a gigantic moderatly well rounded monster of a suit, while the Guntank is a glorified turret. For support I would go with the Zock, as it packs enough firepower to go it alone, it's debatably overkill for support.

Your 08th MS Team example is one of a poor tactical choice on the Federation's part: urban combat is the absolute last place you should want Guntanks to be. The close quarters and myriad places for the enemy to hide pretty much negate the advantage of precision long-range firepower.

The proper use of a Guntank is, when possible, to have it well away from the enemy mobile suits, providing artillery bombardment. A Zock, on the other hand, only has weapons that can fire in a straight line, meaning that it has to be in the thick of the battle to do damage. Being at or near the front line and probably being the largest target on the battlefield (and one of the slowest) means that, unless you've got superior armor that lets you absorb a lot of punishment, you'll probably be one of the first to die. The Zock, as far as I know, doesn't have that.


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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:29 am 
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the zeon probably wouldve done better if they had just converted the zock into a giant cruise missile or a huge large area mine, it looked like a hideously monstrous one anyway. sending it out into the battlefield and have it launch itself into the middle of the enemy's formation or just having the darn thing blow up when it got surrounded. who knows maybe they tried that considering how desparate they were at the war's end.

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:03 am 
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Red XIV wrote:
Your 08th MS Team example is one of a poor tactical choice on the Federation's part: urban combat is the absolute last place you should want Guntanks to be. The close quarters and myriad places for the enemy to hide pretty much negate the advantage of precision long-range firepower.

I'm not so sure about that. It actually seemed to be quite effective -- the Guntanks would fire off a few rounds then change positions to avoid being detected and hit by something nasty. With the MS escort to take out any roving MS that happen to stumble on your firing position, it works pretty well. Remember that it wasn't until Norris Packard in the Gouf Custom -- an ace pilot in a high performance mobile suit -- came along that they had any trouble defending the Guntanks.

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:52 pm 
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Again in movie II there is not much example of Zock doing many things, so we do not know its max speed. The spec however, while inaccurate in many MSs, does show Zock with quite a bit more thrust than its full weight: gross weight 229 T and max thrust at 253 T [through it is listed as hydrojet thrusters' thrust but Zock's main thrusters are only in its skirt and so-called legs so I think it can work both underwater and on land, and as jet it may use air for thrust on land]. Hovering Zock should have no problem rotating rapidly, but with no back and 360 degree monoeye it doesn't even have to turn 180 degree to face enemy, and not even need to hover all the time.

As for armor we do not know much since the only Zock shown is killed by Gundam's beam rifle at pretty close range. Such heavy MS[MA?] should have, apart of water, MPGs, and reactor, lots of its mass for armor though.


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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:09 pm 
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229 tons!! your kidding thats almost twice as heavy as a boeing 747. what the heck were they feeding that thing? also why have that cannon mounted stationary on the head? didn't they realize it would be near useless if they planned to use the zock for land ops or at least part time land ops.

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