A MS remote weapons question...

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Hyakushiki
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Post by Hyakushiki » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:04 pm

The Psycoframe system had this function.
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Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:07 pm

Mwulf wrote:When I was talking about Funnels/Bits being hard to see... I meant for the ENEMY!
...why would you point that out? We were talking about factors that would limit the long-range deployment of remote weapons; how would the enemy being unable to see them affect that in the least?
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Post by Mwulf » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:57 pm

It was in response to another post.
Several kilometers is peanuts in space. Definately within visual range.
Which is flat-out wrong.
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Post by Wingnut » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:09 pm

Mwulf wrote:It was in response to another post.
Several kilometers is peanuts in space. Definately within visual range.
Which is flat-out wrong.
Be careful. That cement you planted your feet in could be the weights that send you to the bottom of the river (read: banned).
This is not a thread by any means, I'm just letting you know that members in identical situations to your own, have been given the ax in the past.
So let's just drop the point and keep on topic.
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Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:26 pm

Mwulf wrote:It was in response to another post.
Several kilometers is peanuts in space. Definately within visual range.
Which is flat-out wrong.
Let's look at this.

You said: "IIRC the Elmeth's bit range was several kilometers--well outside of visual/sensor range."

I said: "Several kilometers is peanuts in space. Definately within visual range."

You said: "If the bits or units were HUGE, yeah. But they're small. And they don't have any lighting.... they'd be next to impossible to see from 100 meters away, let alone a few kilometers."

I said: "As Wingnut points out, finding one's own remote weapons doesn't seem to be a problem; either the Newtype can sense them, or the psycommu system keeps track of them automatically."

You said: "When I was talking about Funnels/Bits being hard to see... I meant for the ENEMY!"

I said: "...why would you point that out?"

So your comment clearly wasn't in response to mine -- it was your comment that several kilometers away was beyond visual range in space that started the entire line of inquiry. And, for the record, my comment wasn't wrong in the context in which we were discussing -- several kilometers is within visual range when we're talking about mobile suit sized objects in open space. If you were talking about a remote weapon-sized object at that range... then it was a misunderstanding, so don't sweat it.

Now, explain to me why you would point out that remote weapons are difficult for the enemy to see from several kilometers away when we only ever see remote weapons attacking targets from a range of a few dozen meters, a few hundred at most?
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Post by Cardi Doorl » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:24 pm

Hyakushiki wrote:The Psycoframe system had this function.
I don't believe the Psycoframe did that. The Neo Psycommu system did, but I believe the Psycoframe was like a Biocomputer on steroids.
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Post by Destroy Gundam » Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:59 pm

What does that mean, exactly? I'm unclear as to what the biosensor and psycoframe actually are capable of doing.

I hope this is at least somewhat on topic. If not, I can create a thread,
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Post by Mwulf » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:13 pm

@Kirby/Wingnut... this whole thing is about my response to a single aspect of a post... just the thing about visual range. It's really not that much of a big deal. :shock:
Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:Now, explain to me why you would point out that remote weapons are difficult for the enemy to see from several kilometers away when we only ever see remote weapons attacking targets from a range of a few dozen meters, a few hundred at most?


It's simple optics. In space there's no point of reference, so distance is impossible to determine. It's just like how when the moon is high up in the sky it looks small, and when it's down by the horizon it looks bigger--the moon doesn't change size, but when it's surrounded by stars/darkness/space we have nothing to compare it to so it's much harder to judge its size.

In space--in particular the region around earth--you only have three sources of illumination: Earth, the Moon and the Sun. Starlight isn't strong enough to illuminate any object. Follow? A funnel or a bit is small, so the further away it is from the observer the smaller it appears. Because of that it would be much, much harder to see the further away it is because bits/funnels don't have running lights. The only light coming from the remote weapon would come from it's thrusters, which would appear as small pinpricks of light barely distinguishable from stars. For a normal (read: non-newtype) seeing a funnel or a bit at ANYTHING but short-range would be nearly impossible.

The same applies to mobile suits, though to a slightly lesser degree. You really won't be able to see an object (think black on black) until it gets large enough to cause a visible distortion in the background (either a starfield, satellite or man-made structure) you simply will not notice it. I believe all of this to be true in reality because I learned as much from my science teachers; I believe this much to be true in the fictional world of Gundam because Tomino said as much in the MSG novelization.

So, unless they're operating at close-range the NT controlling the bits/funnels won't be able to see them, nor will the enemy being attacked. But none of that matters insofar as bit/funnel range is concerned as bits/funnels are not controlled by conventional sensors or anything like that... it's quantum-communication that evidently does NOT require line-of-sight. Think of it as the pilot making the funnels/bits into an extension of his or her self.... 'kay?

~___~

Now, to reitterate the topic in a spiffy list-form:

Factors That Influence Remote-Weapon Range:
-Pilot Ability
-Psycommu Ability
-Remote-Weapon Hardware

Factors That Do Not Influence Remote-Weapon Range:
-Remote Weapon Visibility


*sigh*

And that's all for this post.
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Post by Hyakushiki » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:13 pm

The Biosensor can be thought of as a poor man's psycomu for moblie suits.
It can enhance the preformance of weapons and armor but its effects were
unpredictable in combat.

The Psycoframe was system of receptors spread thourghout the MS's frame
and cockpit that functioned like the psycomu but more compact.
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Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:32 am

Mwulf wrote:Factors That Do Not Influence Remote-Weapon Range:
-Remote Weapon Visibility
So, for the third time, why did you bring it up? :roll:
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Post by Wingnut » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:37 am

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
Mwulf wrote:Factors That Do Not Influence Remote-Weapon Range:
-Remote Weapon Visibility
So, for the third time, why did you bring it up? :roll:
It no longer matters. Leave that pointless point alone. Earlier I made it a strong advisement, now I am making it a direct order. Drop it.
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Post by razgriz » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:35 am

ahhh i hate posting after drama like that. *has brian griffin come enter in a banana suit to do the "peanut butter jelly time" dance* everyone feel better? good.

back to subject. assuming the pilot isnt a super newtype as in lala or amuro, could a psychic connection to a funnel be lost say to a lack of concentration and be reestablished again? once lost but now found stuff ya kno?
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Post by Mwulf » Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:16 am

Since we don't really know how Psycommu works, it's hard to say. I'd imagine that sense it's always connected to the pilots mind, the pilot is always "aware" of the remotes on some level... so I doubt the connection could be severed, but given the sheer number of bits active and the distances between the various bits, the mother unit and the enemy, it's very likely the pilot loses track of what certain bit/funnels are doing at any given time.

It could be that the psycommu computer can take over control of the bits/funnels, but that would kind of defeat the purpose of newtype weapons. I imagine that each individual has a maximum number of bit/funnels that can be operated at any given time without losing concentration.
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Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:11 pm

Mwulf wrote:Since we don't really know how Psycommu works...
They basically take "psycho-waves" -- a special kind of brainwave present only in Newtypes -- and amplify the signal, while recievers in the remote weapons themselves "hear" them and translate them into commands to attack, or maneuver, or whatever. This is useful because psycho-waves aren't blocked by Minovsky jamming, meaning that it's pretty much the only wireless communication technique that's highly reliable in a battlefield situation at longer ranges. Alternately, just see GundamOffical's definition.

Presumably, a psycommu and its remote weapons are tuned to a specific person's psycho-waves, so it wouldn't be possible for a Newtype to "hijack" someone else's funnels. I guess it would be possible for a remote weapon to move outside of the psycommu's range and lose contact... though, personally, I would program something into it that made it return toward the last known position of the controlling unit if that happened.
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Post by Aegis » Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:39 pm

Hyakushiki wrote:The Biosensor can be thought of as a poor man's psycomu for moblie suits.
It can enhance the preformance of weapons and armor but its effects were
unpredictable in combat.

The Psycoframe was system of receptors spread thourghout the MS's frame
and cockpit that functioned like the psycomu but more compact.
I wouldn't call the biosensor a 'poor man's psycommu, considering that it more or less functioned the way typical psycommu systems are supposed to function, namely in providing better control via the pilot's mind. What the biosensor can be considered, however, is a rather unpredictable version of a psycommu.

The psychoframe is definitely the psycommu on steroids, as it utilises many microscopic psycommu receivers along the cockpit, resulting in a system that is incredibly sensitive to a pilot's thoughts. As such, it's also quite unpredicatble, given what we saw at the end of CCA, albeit not as freakish as the biosensor.

Simply put, both biosensor and psychoframe are two different approaches to the psycommu system, the first being an AE design attempt at miniaturizing the psycommu system for mobile suits, the latter being a psycommu system taken to a new level.

And thanks to Evolve, we get to see the one and only example of 'bit-jacking'. :)

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Post by Mwulf » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:17 am

Psycommu seems more like a conventional application of newtype abilities, whereas psycoframes and biosensors are seem more like plot-devices than anything else. I mean, they don't -->directly<-- do anything. They might speed up a suits reaction time or enhance newtype abilities....
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