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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:55 pm 
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Paul McCartney Jr wrote:
This all comes down to a matter of taste and abilities; each suit has a strong point and a weak point. GMs do have the advantage that they won their war but thats also (partially) due to there being more of them.


Partially, but hardly the biggest reason. They had superior mobility compared to their most common enemies (the Rick Dom and Zaku II), superior weapons, and the learning computer combat data are probably the biggest reasons why the GM is the better overall machine.

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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:58 pm 
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mcred23 wrote:
Paul McCartney Jr wrote:
This all comes down to a matter of taste and abilities; each suit has a strong point and a weak point. GMs do have the advantage that they won their war but thats also (partially) due to there being more of them.


Partially, but hardly the biggest reason. They had superior mobility compared to their most common enemies (the Rick Dom and Zaku II), superior weapons, and the learning computer combat data are probably the biggest reasons why the GM is the better overall machine.


Yet I saw a tape of Black Tri Star Zaku 1s pounding a bunch of GMs

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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:00 pm 
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Pilot Skill > MS performance, in that case.

*Edit* Woot, my first triple-ninja ! Finally, I am initiated. :D

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Last edited by Lert on Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:01 pm 
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Paul McCartney Jr wrote:
Yet I saw a tape of Black Tri Star Zaku 1s pounding a bunch of GMs


That would be due to, in part, the Black Tri-Stars being overall outstanding pilots and pre-dating the learning computer data being given out to the GM's.

However, you also have that comes from what is most likely an unofficial source (Such as a game, since you say it's a video).

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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:02 pm 
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For one thing that isn't canon. It is from EiS for another the BTS were killed before the Feds had any of the standard GM. It was just put in so the Zeon people wouldn't only have to fight against fighters and battleships.

EDIT: Three times in a row...

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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:03 pm 
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Paul McCartney Jr wrote:
Yet I saw a tape of Black Tri Star Zaku 1s pounding a bunch of GMs

That's both highly unlikely and irrelevant.

It's unlikely because a) the Black Tri-stars were dead by the time the GM was rolled out, and b) they certainly wouldn't be using Zaku Is that late in the war. Both of these things suggest that whatever video you watched was a non-canon "what if" sort of thing.

It's irrelevant because the Black Tri-stars were ace pilots. They were skilled enough to win against less skilled pilots even with the disadvantage of a less advanced machine. The fact that a group of ace pilots in Zaku Is could defeat a group of grunts in GMs proves nothing about the relative merits of the GM and the Zaku I.

Edit -- Triple ninja'd. Wow.

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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:31 pm 
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It's sort of a rule-of-thumb in Gundam for "Ace" pilots to be able to get exceptional results from below-average machines.

In MSG Char pilots a grunt suit and gives the Gundam a run for it's money with a ~highly~ inferior machine... by the time he finally gets a unit that closer to the Gundam's level (Gelgoog) the skill-gap between him and Amuro is much smaller.

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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:20 pm 
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Yeah but if you were to have two ordinary piolts fight, one in a Gundam and one in a Gelgoog it would probly come down to which machine is better.


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 Post Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:50 pm 
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From Tomino's description of MS combat... I think simple luck would play the greatest role. Whichever pilot sees the the other first... that will be the victor.

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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:40 am 
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Well, I've been reading this thread for a while and decided to register in order to throw in my two cents.

GMs are better on paper, there's nothing to say against that.
But if you look at the facts... in 0080, GM Commands were owned by Rick Dom II both inside and outside the colony. In 0083, Karius took out a few GM Kai by himself with his downgraded Rick Dom II.

The bazooka isn't the only weapon the Rick Dom has, it can also carry machine guns, which might be ineffective against the Gundam, but still good against the GM's weaker armor. It could get rid of the shield (or even the whole arm, don't underestimate the power of that bazooka), then finish it with a few bullets.

Rick Dom's weak spot is close combat, but it has enough thrust and acceleration to avoid that kind of situation, as well as beam spray gun's shots.

The Rick Dom is indeed a ground unit refitted for space, but I don't see any problem with that... IIRC Aina took out Sander's squad of GMs with her MS-06RD-4 Zaku II Prototype, which is basicaly a Zaku with Rick Dom's legs.

The worst situation for a Rick Dom would be if it had to face multiple ennemies attacking from multiple directions.

In the end, I'd say Rick Dom and GM have equal chance of succes. Rick Dom has firepower and acceleration, GM has more advanced technology.


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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:52 am 
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FA-ZZ wrote:
But if you look at the facts... in 0080, GM Commands were owned by Rick Dom II both inside and outside the colony. In 0083, Karius took out a few GM Kai by himself with his downgraded Rick Dom II.


Ah, but those were the MS-09RII Rick Dom II, not the basic MS-09R Rick Dom. Zeon really improved the Rick Dom II, making it faster and more manuverable than the basic Rick Dom.

FA-ZZ wrote:
The bazooka isn't the only weapon the Rick Dom has, it can also carry machine guns, which might be ineffective against the Gundam, but still good against the GM's weaker armor. It could get rid of the shield (or even the whole arm, don't underestimate the power of that bazooka), then finish it with a few bullets.


We know this. However, as we stated eariler in the thread, the 360mm Giant Bazooka is, by far, the Rick Dom's most commonly used weapon.

FA-ZZ wrote:
Rick Dom's weak spot is close combat, but it has enough thrust and acceleration to avoid that kind of situation, as well as beam spray gun's shots.


Not really. It's faster than a GM, but not be very much. At the same time, the GM is manuverable enough to get around the Rick Dom and shoot at it again.

FA-ZZ wrote:
The Rick Dom is indeed a ground unit refitted for space, but I don't see any problem with that... IIRC Aina took out Sander's squad of GMs with her MS-06RD-4 Zaku II Prototype, which is basicaly a Zaku with Rick Dom's legs.


Yeah, but Aina's RD-4 lacked the huge armor and general bulkiness of the Rick Dom, so it was almost certianly more manuverable. At the same time, it was facing early model GM's, which lack combat data (And may lack beam sabers, as the RGM-79[E] is inconsistant with that little weapon), lack ranged beam weapons and have other bugs.

FA-ZZ wrote:
In the end, I'd say Rick Dom and GM have equal chance of succes. Rick Dom has firepower and acceleration, GM has more advanced technology.


Again, the GM has the firepower advantage. It's beam saber is far superior to the heat saber used by the Rick Dom. At the same time, it's standard beam spray gun is more powerful than the standard Giant Bazooka used by the Rick Dom, just not as accurate at longer ranges, but it makes up for that by having more ammo (and being easier to use in close) than the bazooka. Plus, to top it all off, the GM has the 60mm vulcans. While they may not be all that useful against a Rick Dom, we know they'd be useful against the various other machines a GM is likely to fight (The Gattle space fighters and Zakus being the best examples).

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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:05 am 
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Quote:
Ah, but those were the MS-09RII Rick Dom II, not the basic MS-09R Rick Dom. Zeon really improved the Rick Dom II, making it faster and more manuverable than the basic Rick Dom.

Except that 0083 Rick Dom II was downgraded because of the lack of spare parts, so it doesn't have as much thrusters as the 0080 version. Also, those were GMs Kai, not basic GMs.

Quote:
We know this. However, as we stated eariler in the thread, the 360mm Giant Bazooka is, by far, the Rick Dom's most commonly used weapon.

Quote:
Again, the GM has the firepower advantage. It's beam saber is far superior to the heat saber used by the Rick Dom. At the same time, it's standard beam spray gun is more powerful than the standard Giant Bazooka used by the Rick Dom, just not as accurate at longer ranges, but it makes up for that by having more ammo (and being easier to use in close) than the bazooka.

Quote:
Not really. It's faster than a GM, but not be very much. At the same time, the GM is manuverable enough to get around the Rick Dom and shoot at it again.


Well, machine guns are GM's most commonly used weapon as well. We don't see that many GM with BSG. Even in 0083 machine guns are the GM's standard weapon.
About the mobility, we don't see many GMs zipping around and dodging sideway like Rick Dom do.
Finally, most GMs carry a shield, which might reduce the overall maneuverability..

Quote:
Yeah, but Aina's RD-4 lacked the huge armor and general bulkiness of the Rick Dom, so it was almost certianly more manuverable. At the same time, it was facing early model GM's, which lack combat data (And may lack beam sabers, as the RGM-79[E] is inconsistant with that little weapon), lack ranged beam weapons and have other bugs.

The RD-4 was supposed to be used for test purpose only and it didn't have as much thrusters as the final Rick Dom has to compensate the bulkiness.
Actually, the specs on that one are totally contradicting each other, but you can see that there's practically no room for "skirt" thrusters and that the back thrusters are smaller.

Edit: As for beam sabers, they're definitely more effective against mobile suit armour, but I'm not sure against heat sabers, after all it's just superheated metal versus superheated plasma. I don't remember seeing a heathawk or a heat saber being cut in half by a beam saber.


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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:27 pm 
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Again in Movie III Rickdom uses its heat saber to parry GM's beam saber, so obviously heat saber can withstand beam saber at least briefly for indirect hit [parry].

From the movie it seems that unless Rickdom stops moving GM is not likely to make easy kill, and exploding Rickdom right next to the ship is pretty bad news for the ship... GM doesn't seem to be able to dodge and turn faster than Zeon MSs in the movie, and one of the Rickdom fighting Gundam at Side 6 does dodge left and right quickly before getting nailed by Amuro.

After watching movie again from the scene with Rickdom making the final shot that destroy Whitebase's remaining engine it seems that Giant bazooka can be fired 2-3 times very rapidly in quick succession.


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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:57 pm 
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Aina didn't exactly take out Terry's squad on her own. There was a Musai and she had two escort Zaku IIs with her when the battle started. By the time Shiro got there though all GMs apart from Terry's were destroyed and Aina's Zaku was the only one left. The Salamis and Musai were also destroyed. Also as Red said those weren't the RGM-79 GM they were a pre-production model.

What happens with heat hawks and other heat weapons when they touch a beamsaber is that they don't melt or break right away. Since they are designed to take alot of heat the metal can withstand a few blows with a beamsaber but not that many and not for long. Since while there is a limit to how much heat the metal can take the beamsabers don't have this problem. The heat hawk has the lowest heat resitence while the Dom/Rick Dom's weapon has the highest.

The amount of thrusters doesn't determine a MS' speed. A MS could have lots of small weak ones but still move slower than one with two huge powerful ones. The size of them doesn't matter either but in Gundam the bigger ones are usually more powerful.

Nope in MSG movies and tv show the GMs mostly used beamspray guns. THe shields might reduce their mobility but not as much as the Rick-Dom's heavy armor.

Any MS moving around would be a rather hard kill. Destorying a MS isn't as easy as most people seem to think same with shooting down an enemy plane in real life.

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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:33 pm 
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At 43.8 tons Rickdom's empty weight is only around 3 tons heavier than GM [and on par with Gundam's 43.3], so the additional weight for full weight [78.6 tons for Rickdom and 58.8 for GM] is likely weapons and propellent's weight and not excessive armor. For comparision Gelgoog's empty weight is 42.1 tons and full weight is 73.3, yet it looks slimmer than Rickdom.


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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:48 pm 
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Yeah but IIRC the Rick-Dom also had the hover jets removed and switched with normal ones which made it lighter than the Dom. I forgot it was that light though. Although even like that it should weigh mroe if it has more armor. So maybe the Rick-Doms isn't as heavily armored as I thought. With it's full weight though its manuverability would be lowered more than the GM's would be with it's shield.

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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:29 pm 
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Jets don't work in space, so the hover jets were replaced with some form of rocket propulsion... liquid-fueled, I'd assume.

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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:31 pm 
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By normal ones I meant normal rocket thrusters.

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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:35 pm 
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Quote:
Except that 0083 Rick Dom II was downgraded because of the lack of spare parts, so it doesn't have as much thrusters as the 0080 version.


That was proven to be blatantly false, wasn't it?

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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:58 pm 
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Not sure. About all I know is the 0080 has higher performance going by the stats other than that I have no idea.

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