MS better suited for space combat: GM or Rick Dom?

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blaze101
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Mwulf wrote:Hm... I haven't really tried out the Rick Dom in space in GvZG, but in FvZ EVERYTHING handled like crap in space. In the low-grav areas it handled just as well... of course, the Rick Dias owns everything everyhere... it's a shame that design series never got any further; I almost like it as much as I like the Zaku designs.

In the novels, Tomino has the Rick Dom fighting on equal ground as the G3, so it's clearly superior to the GMs... in the anime it's up in the air, as whatever fits the story better will become reality. Personally, I think of the Dom as Zeon's ultimate land-combat MS that they were forced to refit for space combat because they were losing the war... of course, it WAS better than the old Zakus, and the old Zakus weren't much worse than the GMs (the lack of beam weaponry being their only real weakness) so it isn't a strecth to say Rick Doms were superior to GMs.

Of course, GM Snipers, Cannons, and Commanders were probably better... ATM, I can't think of a single EF grunt suit that could equal the Gelgoog-Jager.
Well, the GM, either way you cut it, is much better than a Zaku. Its armor has to be just as good, if not better, than a Zaku II's. It's both faster and more maneuverable than a Zaku II, and to top it off, it has better weapons. In relation to GMs and Rick Doms, the thing is that the discussions in this thread support the GM being the superior unit, overall. What really have to go with is what's depicted in the anime.

As seen in 08th MS team, the Dom types on Earth have not only superior speed but superior maneuverability (again, points to how the Dom was hovering within the city streets in 08th MS Team with such ease despite numerous enemies around). In space, GMs, though they had to work to get within range (but not too much), manage to axe Rick Doms 1,2,3. So despite them being identical and whatever the official specs say, the Dom types on Earth are of another breed from the space Dom types.
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Mwulf
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Well, yeah. Doms were so cool because they had that "hover drive" i.e. an original, innovated propulsion system. Rick Doms just have typical propulsion systems tacked on.

I see Zakus and GMs are roughly equal, or at least the late-model zakus (Hi-mobility, fz, r2, etc). Especially the act-Zaku.
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Mwulf wrote:Well, yeah. Doms were so cool because they had that "hover drive" i.e. an original, innovated propulsion system. Rick Doms just have typical propulsion systems tacked on.

I see Zakus and GMs are roughly equal, or at least the late-model zakus (Hi-mobility, fz, r2, etc). Especially the act-Zaku.
Well, late model Zaku IIs, like the R1A, R2 (hope I got those model numbers right, lol), and the FZ are definetely in league with the GM. The Act Zaku, I will admit is superior to a GM (magnetic coating=ridiculous turn around time :shock:).
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Mwulf
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On the topic of Zakus... how many times do they EVER use those shields?

I can only think of seeing one zaku design that even had the shield on it's arm (as well as on the shoulder) but I can't remember what it is... ...
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Mwulf wrote:On the topic of Zakus... how many times do they EVER use those shields?

I can only think of seeing one zaku design that even had the shield on it's arm (as well as on the shoulder) but I can't remember what it is... ...
Char used his to stop the Gundam's vulcan fire but that's about it.
As for the arm shield, you are thinking of the Knuckle shield used by Cima's Gelgoogs in 0083.
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IIRC MS-06R-2 is not selected for mass production and Rickdom is selected because of R-2 is a gas guzzler and more expensive to build. Zimmad seems to make better engines than Zeonic.

I would say comparing GM and Rickdom is not really good thing. It is sortha like comparing a fighter to a divebomber. Though being more manueverable GM would have harder time sinking ships or destroy bases than Rickdom.
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Quick question i dont know if its on or off topic but when comparing a rick dom and GM which games are we using encounter in space or the very arcade like ones like zeon vs federation or gundam vs zeta gundam?(i mean good to go statistically by the numbers and stuff on mahq but is it not better to put a GM or dom on highest difficulty and try em both out?)
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Random Zaku Pilot wrote:Quick question i dont know if its on or off topic but when comparing a rick dom and GM which games are we using encounter in space or the very arcade like ones like zeon vs federation or gundam vs zeta gundam?(i mean good to go statistically by the numbers and stuff on mahq but is it not better to put a GM or dom on highest difficulty and try em both out?)
Well, technically, we're going off what's seen in the anime, not there hasn't been examples from videogames. Still, it doesn't matter whether it be FedvsZ DX, GvsZ, or EiS, because all three depict the Rick Dom as substantially superior to the GM (damn them and their unrelenting need for game balancing j/k).
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Games are never a reliable source to use, since they often take great liberties with anything and everything.
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Mwulf
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A brief overview....

GM
Weight: empty 41.2 metric tons; max gross 58.8 metric tons
Construction: titanium alloy on semi-monocoque frame
Powerplant: Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactor, output rated at 1250 kW
Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 2 x 24000 kg, 4 x 1870 kg
Performance: maximum thruster acceleration 0.94 G; 180-degree turn time 1.6 seconds; maximum ground running speed 102 km/h
Equipment and design features: sensors, range 6000 meters


Rick Dom
Weight: empty 43.8 metric tons; max gross 78.6 metric tons
Powerplant: Minovsky type ultracompact fusion reactor, output rated at 1199 kW
Propulsion: rocket thrusters: 2 x 22000 kg, 9 x 1000 kg
Performance: maximum thruster acceleration 0.67 G; 180-degree turn time 2.1 seconds; maximum ground running speed 110 km/h
Equipment and design features: sensors, range 5400 meters

The GM has slightly superior power, but given that a good chunk of that additional power goes to the beam saber and beam spray gun, it probably evens out.

GM's total propulsion is 55480 kg. The Rick Dom's total propulsion is 53000. So the GM is faster. Because of it's extra mass, the Rick Dom likely turns slower as well.

The GM has superior sensor range, accelleratioin, turning ability and running-speed. The only area where the Rick Dom exceeds the GM is, probably, in armor and firepower.

While technically the GM is superior, if I had to choose between the two I'd choose the Rick Dom for having the overall best combat ability. I like the extra amor, and it's much easier to hit and damage/destroy targets with a bazooka than a beam weapon. For the typical pilot, it's probably the better machine.
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The GM's running speed is lower. I wouldn't say it is easier to hit targets with a bazooka. I mean a fast and manuverable MS in space can dodge a bazooka shell much easier than it could dodge a beam. Against slow ships that doesn't really change anything but against a MS(unless it is incredibly slow) a beam is the better choice.
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Mwulf
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Beams require pinpoint accuracy... sure, it's a one-hit kill IF you get a direct hit, but with a bazooka shell... so long as it explodes near to your target you're going to cause damage. It has a wider area of damage and is, therefore, the better weapon. In space you're being attacked from every angle... it's absurd to expect that you'd be able to SEE every attack, much less dodge.

Also, every time you fire a beam rifle you automatically reveal your location to the enemy. That's a major disadvantage right there.
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So what. Unless the rounds have prox. fuses it's not going to work to begin with, which with Minovsky particle radio jamming might not work anyway, and based on what we have seen of bazooka's fireing they give away your position anyway.
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A small flash of light at the barrel is somewhat less conspicuous than a giant beam of light pointing directly at your suit. :roll:
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Mwulf wrote:While technically the GM is superior, if I had to choose between the two I'd choose the Rick Dom for having the overall best combat ability. I like the extra amor, and it's much easier to hit and damage/destroy targets with a bazooka than a beam weapon. For the typical pilot, it's probably the better machine.
Oddly enough, the reasons you are choosing the Rick Dom over the GM are the very reasons why it's worse than the GM. It's extra armor makes it less manuverable and is worthless in the face of the beam weapons it's most likely to face, and the bazooka (As we've pointed out/for several reasons) isn't all that great against enemy MS.

And for the typical pilot, the GM will always be the better machine thanks to it's learning comupter (And all it's wonderful combat data from Amuro), which gave it's pilot a crucial edge when they faced the enemy.
Mwulf wrote:Beams require pinpoint accuracy... sure, it's a one-hit kill IF you get a direct hit, but with a bazooka shell... so long as it explodes near to your target you're going to cause damage.
Not quite. Beams have never been shown to require pinpoint accuracy in order to badly damage/kill an enemy MS (If they did, they never would have become as widely used as they did).

And like beam weapons, if the bazooka shell misses it's target, it's pretty much wasted. Sure, if it goes off near by, it'll cause fragments and stuff, but if a beam passes close enough to the target, it'll cause damage too (As it was stated in the Gundam novel, I'll see if I can dig up the exact wording).
Mwulf wrote:It has a wider area of damage and is, therefore, the better weapon.
Not if the shell flies right past the enemy and doesn't explode. If they miss, they just fly on. They don't explode behind their targets or anything special like that. If it hits close by, it may cause some damage, but MS armor is almost always enough to deal with little things like shrapnel and whatnot.
Mwulf wrote:In space you're being attacked from every angle... it's absurd to expect that you'd be able to SEE every attack, much less dodge.
Sensors and various parts of the MS cockpit tell you were the attack is coming from, so you will know you are under attack and probably where the attack came from. As for dodging, again, as we've pointed out, bazooka shells aren't exactly the fastest thing around (Not that they are slow pokes either), particularly from long ranges and if you know it's coming....
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Note: people have said bazooka shells can explode and cause radius damage while beams can't. Okay, true, but as Wingnut said they don't have proximity or remote fuses and need to explode on contact. Unlike ground combat, space combat don't have the ground below as a big ol' explosionboard, so how do you plan on causing blast damage very often unless under very specific circumstances?
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It has been pointed out that official specs do not reflect what is seen in animation, so it is not very reliable. Classic case in point is Gouf: in animations its thrusters can send it going up in the sky with ease, yet the spec shows that it's thrusters cannot lift it off the ground. It is also supposed to be much lighter than Zaku II, but the spec says otherwise. The spec make it look like there is no point to make Gouf at all...

In CDA when the fed attacks Axis initially GMs have the edge over Axis MSs thanks to their OS based on Amuro's Gundam that allows GMs to have fast reaction and predict and dodge incoming shots quickly in open space, but Char quickly find a strategy to counter the OS by telling Axis MSs to move back near Axis's surface and go melee. GMs start dropping like flies after that since their actual pilots, unlike the OS, are not that good [despite GMs being designed mainly as close combat/general purpose MS and the better model at CDA]. Likewise other than good aces like Amuro I doubt GMs can munch on Rickdoms the same way as Gundam, and GMs won't find it much easier to dodge bazooka rounds than beam shot.

Is it possible to set the bazooka rounds to explode a few moment after firing or after flying out over some distance? That should not be hard to do.

Eventhough buckshot type rounds can be equipped for the bazooka I do not think Rickdoms should use it since its job is attacking and sinking ships, not fighting other MSs. Those buckshot rounds won't sink ship easily.

In OYW it seems that Dom and Rickdom may be the only MSs that can move around and shoot their giant bazookas quickly with relative ease. Guncannons [IIRC] seem to stop or moving slowly before firing its cannon, Gundam seems to slow down before firing its bazooka.
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Cardi Doorl wrote:Note: people have said bazooka shells can explode and cause radius damage while beams can't. Okay, true, but as Wingnut said they don't have proximity or remote fuses and need to explode on contact. Unlike ground combat, space combat don't have the ground below as a big ol' explosionboard, so how do you plan on causing blast damage very often unless under very specific circumstances?
If a beam scores a glancing hit on an MS forearm; it leaves some burnt or melted armor. If a bazooka shell does that it explodes, damaging other parts of the MS. All I'm saying is that if I were forced to choose between piloting either suit I would choose the Rick Dom.
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domtropen wrote:In CDA when the fed attacks Axis initially GMs have the edge over Axis MSs thanks to their OS based on Amuro's Gundam that allows GMs to have fast reaction and predict and dodge incoming shots quickly in open space, but Char quickly find a strategy to counter the OS by telling Axis MSs to move back near Axis's surface and go melee. GMs start dropping like flies after that since their actual pilots, unlike the OS, are not that good [despite GMs being designed mainly as close combat/general purpose MS and the better model at CDA].
First off, CDA isn't exactly canon/official, so don't base theories on it too much. And that doesn't sound right, as the animation in the third MSG movies and other sources all pretty much say the GM does better in close combat that most other machines thanks to it's learning computer data (Of course, CDA already has enough problems, this is just another one).
domtropen wrote:Is it possible to set the bazooka rounds to explode a few moment after firing or after flying out over some distance? That should not be hard to do.
Could such a thing be done? Easily.

Is such a thing done in Gundam? No. We never see such a system employed (At least in the One Year War/By Zeon, which is what we're talking about).
domtropen wrote:In OYW it seems that Dom and Rickdom may be the only MSs that can move around and shoot their giant bazookas quickly with relative ease. Guncannons [IIRC] seem to stop or moving slowly before firing its cannon, Gundam seems to slow down before firing its bazooka.
Well, in space, anyone can move around and fire bazookas with ease. It's on Earth where the Dom's ability to do that make it effective (Since most other MS have to stop since they are on foot). Of course, stopping to fire allows you to make your shot slightly more accurate...
Mwulf wrote:If a beam scores a glancing hit on an MS forearm; it leaves some burnt or melted armor. If a bazooka shell does that it explodes, damaging other parts of the MS. All I'm saying is that if I were forced to choose between piloting either suit I would choose the Rick Dom.
I think you're kinda overestimating the effectiveness of that possibile spread damage from a bazooka shell going off near by. To use your example, a bazooka shell getting a glance hit on a MS's forearm, the shell will probably go off when it contacts (Which I think is what you are impling). That'll do heavy damage to the forearm and probably take most of the arm off, but that's about it. We see this sort of thing happen time and time again. There is no real damage from the small peices of shrapnel or even from the entire explosion (Other than blackened armor and whatnot). Like I said, it seems to be you are thinking the explosion will be more effective than it really is...
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IIRC in MSG final battle Gundam slows down when firing bazookas, while it can fire beam rifle with ease while dashing around. Rickdoms however have been seen flying fast and shoot at the same time.

I am well aware that CDA is just a manga. However GMs do get data from Amuro's data in Gundam's learning computer [at least in part].

IIRC GMs doesn't have that much melee action in the movie. There is a scene in movie III during the setup of the solar system that a Rickdom is sparring [using heat saber] with a GM [Rickdom with advantage] behind Gundam, and another scene before Gundam engage Elemeth with Rickdom wacking its bazooka at GM causing GM to loose its grip on BSG, ant that GM cut the wacking Rickdom with beam saber. Another scene with Zaku II kick a Ball into GM, destroying both. And last one is GM cutting Rickdom after it disable ship's cannon. These all doesn't tell that much about GM being that much better in melee over Rickdom or even Zaku II.
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