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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:01 am 
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Which is the best MS series among these two? Let's consider a few things though:

-Although in the original MSG, all GMs have beam spray guns, most other ovas and side stories shown us that this is not the case (specifically during OYW, MS Igloo, 0080, Lost War Chronicles and Blue Destiny among others), since most GMs usually have machine guns instead and the occasional bazooka. On the Rick Dom's case, they usually are equipped with bazookas and machine guns, and the occasional beam bazooka or sturm fausts.

-Comparing mainly MS of the same time:
a) regular GM VS regular Rick Dom.
b) GM Kai and GM Commander VS Rick Dom II.


Personally, I think the Rick Dom is better, especially the Rick Dom II against the GM Kai:

-Regular weapons prove to be more deadly for GMs than for the Rick Doms.

-Despite their bulky appearance, Rick Doms do seem to have enough rocket thrusters for above average mobility:
--The original GM has six thrusters: 2 in the backpack and 2 on each foot.
--The original Rick Dom actually has 17 thrusters: 2 on the back, 3 on the skirt, 3 on each lower leg armor and 3 on each foot sole. These are seen mainly on model kits, yet generally ignored despite the fact that the description of the Rick Dom clearly states that the hover jet thrusters(on the sole) were replaced by rockets thrusters.

-Even in the case where GMs use spray beam guns and Rick Doms only Giant Bazookas, while they are capable of destroying each other in one hit, Rick Doms can easily reload on the field their bazookas while GMs need to head back to their ships to recharge their weapons each time they empty their E-caps. After is far most likely for a Rick Dom to have extra catridges than a GM having a second beam spray gun.

-The GM's vulcans are almost useless against a Rick Dom's tough armor, while the scatter beam gun is useful against any GM visual sensor or camera.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:57 am 
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Well by the animation the GM's always lose out but this is usually explained by the Zeon's having better pilots and plot development. I think that if you had equal pilots the GM Kai would win since that varient still had a beam gun and shield. And the vulcans aren't useless since they could take out the monoeye, or shoot down the bazooka rounds.

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:36 am 
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Interesting train of thought.

Looking at the thread title, I was immediately biased towards the GM considering that I often found it to be more nimble in space and had the beam weapon advantage...if not in the form of the beam spray gun then in the form of the beam saber

HOWEVER,

You're quite right that we're often shown GMs utilising machine guns but it's not that frequent or widespread. Even recent animation adaptations show that the space forces primarily used beam spray guns (Igloo is best example) while the unfortunate few used the machine guns which is probably due to the same reloading issue you yourself made note of or due to the fact that the beam spray guns may not have been ready for every GM.

Still, the Rick Dom had the advantage of acceleration, if not speed, in space battles which could be quite pivotal in the dogfight scenarios. The Rick Dom could quite likely zig-zag faster than the GM could, launching a few rounds from its heavy bazooka or machine gun as it did so at its targets. This would mean that against a GM equipped with a machine gun only then the GM may be on the bitter end of the deal however, there is the fact that the GM usually carried a shield and I'd bet that the only GMs deployed without shields were those carrying beam guns/rifles in order to compensate for the reduction of offensive capability.
The GM's shield allows the GM the ability to close in and make use of the deadly beam saber and it's known that the GM shield was as strong as the Gundam's shield which could allow the user to survive a Dom heavy bazooka round and though it'd be destroyed, the GM would have the ability to launch a tricky diversion, hide behind the explosion and launch a quick counter-attack.

Coupled with the fact that GMs were often loaded with Amuro's combat data, that's what gave the GM pilots an edge against Zeon's Rick Doms and Gelgoog MS even more so than the fact that the Federation had several promising new MS aces and Zeon's number of MS aces was being rapidly reduced with each heated battle.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:09 am 
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GM would have advantage once it gets in close range thanks to its faster reaction/turnaround time and better close range weapons and the presence of shield. Rickdom would have advantage at middle to long distance since it is faster and its weapon generally have longer range. It is not known whether or not Giant Bazookas is reloadable during combat or not, but Rateken Bazooka is reloadable. Rickdom with newer machineguns equipped with grenade launchers and/or some strumfausts should deal with GM shield easily though. Otherwise though heat sword can cut through GM shield, Rickdom would get in range that can be dangerous since it is close to GM's advantagerous range eventhough heat sword is longer than the reach of beam saber.

MS battle should be between teams of MSs so either side should have both fighter/interceptor and attacker/supporter. In ideal condition Rickdoms equipped with bazookas should be covered with MSs with lighter weapons [Zakus, Rickdoms with machineguns, or Gelgoogs] and there should be GMs carrying BSG as well as GMs with bazookas. The MS fight part should fall into the hand of fighters while attackers break through or supporters give cover fire. Attackers should attack quickly and get out asap, hanging on can allow fighter to get in and kill the attacker [like GM killing Rickdom that finish unloading on Salamis]. Ideally Rickdoms with bazookas as attackers should stay away from GMs and let fighters do the job.

BTW Zaku II has faster turnaround time than Rickdom.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:30 am 
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The basic MS-09R Rick Dom is a pretty poor MS when compared to the RGM-79 GM, or any GM varaint for that matter. It's only major advantage is being faster in striaght flight. It does pack those highly effective bazookas, but the GM's always carry shields which will allow them to take a hit from said weapons and survive. However, the Rick Dom is highly unmanuverable, which makes it a very poor machine in close combat, and the GM is a close combat machine packing beam weapons (Which are going to kill the Rick Dom in one or two hits no matter what).

As for the others mentioned, the Rick Dom II is basically a higher performing Rick Dom and they addressed some issues such as it's poor mobility. Of course, this came at a cost and later in the war, and fairly few Rick Dom II's made it into combat (When compared to the number of basic MS-09R's).

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
-Despite their bulky appearance, Rick Doms do seem to have enough rocket thrusters for above average mobility:


Like I said above, we know that it really has below average mobility. Someone else pointed out a sad truth that it's less manuverable than the MS-06F it replaced.

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
-Even in the case where GMs use spray beam guns and Rick Doms only Giant Bazookas, while they are capable of destroying each other in one hit, Rick Doms can easily reload on the field their bazookas while GMs need to head back to their ships to recharge their weapons each time they empty their E-caps. After is far most likely for a Rick Dom to have extra catridges than a GM having a second beam spray gun.


Actually, this is an advantage for the GM. AFAIK, the Giant Bazooka can't be reloaded in the field, and it was the Rick Dom's most commonly used weapon (The 880mm Raketen wasn't very common and while the MMP-80-types were used, it was never as often as the H&L-GB05R). It only has ten rockets in a clip. The GM has it's beam spray gun, and like most beam weapons, it has about 20 shots in it.

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
-The GM's vulcans are almost useless against a Rick Dom's tough armor, while the scatter beam gun is useful against any GM visual sensor or camera.


While I won't deny that the vulcans are almost useless against the Rick Dom (But they are effecttive against pretty much everything else a GM would encounter, such as the Zakus and Gattles and whatnot), the scattering beam gun is almost never used. IIRC, you need a direct line of sight with the weapon, and in space combat, both sides are going to be moving around so quickly you're just as likely to accidently blind one of you're allies as you are to blind an enemy.

Dr.G wrote:
Well by the animation the GM's always lose out but this is usually explained by the Zeon's having better pilots and plot development
.

In most cases, yeah, but not to the Rick Doms. We see several cases of GM's getting the better of them in close combat.

And of course, we know that late in the war, Zeon had worse pilots than the Federation, who on top of having better trained and battle tested pilots also had Amuro's learning computer data, which would give them a decent edge in combat (Particularly melee).

And that's all I feel like repling to right now. :mrgreen:

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:54 am 
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Not to mention that the Rick Dom is essentially a downgrade of a Mobile suit that was originally designed to work on land, taking away the remarkability that the Dom possessed in a hurried attempt to replace the Zaku II. (It actually has a lower generator output than the MS-09 Dom.) Nevertheless, the Production lines were still modified to adapt for the mass production of Rick Doms, since the Zeon were running out of options and time.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:12 pm 
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The problem with the Dom series (and the Gouf, to a lesser extent) was that its intended purpose changed after it was designed but before it entered mass production. The Dom was originally meant to fight conventional weapons -- which it is very good at. High speed and a heavy-hitting weapon is wonderful for taking out large and slow well-armored enemy units like your standard EFF Salamis, Magellan or Big Tray. The Dom's high speed makes it able to avoid most AA fire, its heavy armor allows it to ignore most of what does hit it (AA fire tending to be lower calibur), and its hard-hitting bazooka is capable of disabling a target with one shot (take out the bridge or the engines, and the entire ship is dead in the water).

However, these exact qualities are what make it a poor machine for anti-MS combat. High straight line speed means poor maneuverability (this isn't a matter of thruster placement or acceleration figures -- it's a law of physics. The faster something is going, the harder it's going to be to make it stop or change directions). The bazooka, while powerful enough to destroy a GM with a single solid hit, is slow to fire and has a relatively slow projectile -- meaning that, except at close range (where the GM is exceptionally dangerous), it's likely that a GM would be able to dodge a Dom's bazooka shot, or at least get its shield up (which, as mentioned earlier, would destroy the shield but save the GM). The heavy armor is nice, but it's bulky and heavy, both of which make the Dom that much easier to hit -- absolutely deadly against the GM equipped with a beam spray gun, and even a machine gun is capable of destroying a Dom with sustained fire (and both weapons are easier to use than the Dom's bazooka -- the advantage of rapid fire).


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:16 pm 
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Rickdom's manuverability in MSG seems decent enough. But in close range [in UC world] AMBAC and reaction/turnaround time may be more important than firing small thrusters to redirect, thus GM still outmanuver Rickdom at close range due to its faster reaction/turnaround time. Rickdom II fixs this problem somewhat by having faster turnaround time at 1.8 sec instead of Rickdom's 2.1 sec.

Turnaround time of most GMs according to MAHQ are around 1.5-1.6 sec, with GM Sniper II at 1.3 sec, and Gundam at 1.1 sec after magnet coating. Zaku II time is 1.7 sec, Gelgoog is 1.5 sec, Jaeger is 1.4, Kampher is 1.2, but the monster is Alex at 0.8 sec. Act Zaku in beyond the blaze manga may have insane reaction time after limiter is removed.

In previous post my opinion is that Dom on Earth [not in space] has been shown to dash quickly in multiple directions and jump, so it doesn't have to dash in and attack in completely straight line. The dashing slash attack requires Dom to dash to the side of the enemy MS in order to pass through, not straight into and crash into. All of this requires space to move around however, so Dom would be able to have major advantage only in area where fast dash and dance is possible.


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:49 pm 
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How is the Rick-Doms speed in a straight line better than the GM's if it's acceleration is 0.67 when the GM's is 0.94? Just wondering.

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:53 pm 
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RGM-79 GM wrote:
How is the Rick-Doms speed in a straight line better than the GM's if it's acceleration is 0.67 when the GM's is 0.94? Just wondering.
The Rick Dom seems to have a higher top speed, but the GM is likely to reach its top speed sooner than the Rick Dom. That is what accelration is: how fast a mobile suit can reach its top speed from a dead stop. At least that's how I see it as being.

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:05 pm 
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The problem is, though, that in space there is no such thing as top speed. You can accelerate until you run out of propellant, and there's nothing to slow you down, so you'll just keep going faster and faster until you run dry.

Honestly, the official stats are useless. For example, according to the official stats, the GM is running a 1250 kW reactor. By comparison, the M1 Abrams main battle tank has a 1500 horsepower turbine engine, which is the equivilent of about 1119 kW. You're telling me that a freaking nuclear fusion reactor has barely more juice than a modern day tank engine? And that this is enough to run everything in a sixty foot giant robot, including a compact energy weapon? Right...


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:06 pm 
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In space since there is no real top speed limit doesn't that mean the MS with the higher accel would move faster? Thats what I thought it was like anyway.

Bravefencerkirby your right about the generator output but do we really have anything else to go by?

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:08 pm 
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RGM-79 GM wrote:
In space since there is no real top speed limit doesn't that mean the MS with the higher accel would move faster? Thats what I thought it was like anyway.

As far as top speed is concerned, the only thing that really matters is propellant capacity. All else being equal, a spacecraft that pulls a thousand gees fully loaded and carries 50% of its full weight in propellant will max out at a slightly lower velocity than a spacecraft that pulls 0.001 gees but carries 60% of its full weight in propellant. Of course, the second spacecraft will take waaaaay longer to reach its maximum velocity!

As far as specs comparisons go, they're complicated by the fact that the official specs for One Year War mobile suits are total rubbish. The current official specs are loosely based on those from Gundam Century, which said that the Rick Dom had greater acceleration than the GM (5.72 gees versus 3.94 gees, which is almost 50% higher) but less maneuverability (2.1 seconds for a 180-degree turn, versus 1.6 seconds for a GM and 1.7 seconds for a standard Zaku II). The current specs use the same values for turn times, confirming that the Rick Dom is one of the least maneuverable One Year War mobile suits, but the thrust-to-weight ratios are now completely screwy. Judging from the animation, the Rick Dom certainly looks fast, but its low maneuverability would help explain why it often gets chopped up by GMs in melee combat.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:25 pm 
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Oh ok. Thanks Mark.

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:05 pm 
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Well, it's also no surprise that many GM units used conventional weaponry. Earlier in their introduction, the beam spray gun wasn't that widely used given the GM's numbers and such and it wasn't until later that most had them.

But even still, later on like 0083, you can see many GM Kai units with conventional machine guns and bazookas (especially when you see the large group of them moving in to engage the Delaz Fleet MS near that satellite installation). Even more advanced units like the GM Custom and GM Cannon II were using the conventional GM Rifle when they were more than capable of using beam rifles.

Most likely because they are much easier to maintain and, as mentioned, they are reloadable on the field while with a beam spray gun (before E-Pacs were widely used) would require you to return to the ship to recharge.

I would assume the Gelgoog Marine is more than capable of using a beam rifle or beam machinegun as well, but at least they have the added excuse of probably lack of resources and facilities to be able to maintain all of them except for Cima's Marine Commander Type's beam rifle. (similar to how a lot of the Delaz Fleet's Rick Dom II's have lower mobility and speed)

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:25 pm 
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HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
Well, it's also no surprise that many GM units used conventional weaponry. Earlier in their introduction, the beam spray gun wasn't that widely used given the GM's numbers and such and it wasn't until later that most had them.


The beam spray gun (And beam weapons in general for Federation MS) really didn't start getting used in any decent numbers until the basic GM-types entered production in mid-November.

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
But even still, later on like 0083, you can see many GM Kai units with conventional machine guns and bazookas (especially when you see the large group of them moving in to engage the Delaz Fleet MS near that satellite installation). Even more advanced units like the GM Custom and GM Cannon II were using the conventional GM Rifle when they were more than capable of using beam rifles.


There are reasons for this. The beam spray gun isn't very effective at long range and it's ammo is limited when compared to any machine gun. While the 90mm bullpup favored by the EFF in the years after the OYW may not have a much greater range, you can carry far more ammo and it'll still be effective against most Zeonic machines they're likely to fight. The GM Rifle is a further improved weapon, with a larger clip and longer range.

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
I would assume the Gelgoog Marine is more than capable of using a beam rifle or beam machinegun as well, but at least they have the added excuse of probably lack of resources and facilities to be able to maintain all of them except for Cima's Marine Commander Type's beam rifle. (similar to how a lot of the Delaz Fleet's Rick Dom II's have lower mobility and speed)


I think it is safe to say the Gelgoog Marine can use a normal beam rifle at the very least (A beam machine gun may be a bit of a stretch). But yeah, Cima's unit didn't use them for an assortment of reasons (Lack of proper facilities and resources like you say, but also because Zeon simply didn't have enough beam rifles for all their Gelgoogs and they were also on the run for three years, meaning they could have easily lost them or choose to ditch them for whatever reason).

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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:03 pm 
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In outer space long range combat would seem more likely than close combat, in which the Rick Dom does better.

I admit I don't recall seeing a Dom or Rick Dom reloading its Giant Bazooka or carrying extra clips or catridges, but that is something not uncommon for most grunt units in most Gundam series (Like the GINNs from GS, who despite never been seen carrying extra ammo clips, have machinguns that never run out of ammo, regardless that the stats indicate that it carries 40 rounds per clip), to never show the ammo clips or catridges of most weapons that we know can be reloaded on the field.

I really don't know how does the individual catridge of the Giant Bazooka looks like, but as most Zeon weapons, even if it looks odd, it still should work.

Although the shield does give the GM the possibility of surviving one hit from the giant bazooka, the beam bazooka does seem to destroy both the GM and its shield in a single shot, (at least I recall it doing so in EiS, the only animated use of the Rick Dom's beam bazooka as far as I remember).

At close quarters, the Rick Dom's best chance is to take as much advantage of it longer heat saber in order to strike first, otherwise, it will be at disadvantage.

In MS Igloo the only GMs that carry BSG are the GM Kais, the regular version carries a 90mm machinegun. On the other hand, all Rick Doms are seen with giant bazookas and all Gelgoogs have beam rifles.


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:17 am 
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Uhh... where did you read that the GINN only has 40 rounds per clip?


True, Beam bazookas would generally deal a lot of damage, but I don't see them as being very accurate. A solid-shell based bazooka could at least have a rocket that can lock onto the target. As for the heat sabre... I don't think those would fare well against a beam sabre.

The GM seems to carry a few fancier weapons, though I always thought of suits like the Gelgoog, Dom and such to be the more mobile units (even though some of them have names that just make no sense).


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:56 am 
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The Rick Dom's beam bazooka was also bulky, slow to fire, and extremely rare was it not?

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:25 am 
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Bulky, most likely in order to house the reactor to be able to give it sufficient power and shot numbers, though rate of fire is unknown. I would guess rare also given that they are never widely reported except for a few times like the Zaku beam sniper (which was big) and supposedly in the non-canon Encounters in Space "episode" where Anavel Gato's has a Rick Dom equipped with one, but that thing doesn't look too much bigger than a normal giant bazooka anyways.

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