Zaku Cannon in space?

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.
Post Reply
Jamafore
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:56 pm

Zaku Cannon in space?

Is there any evidence that the Zaku Cannon is able to work in space or is it a ground only design?

I'm looking at getting a model of it, and wondering if I should paint it for space or ground deployment.

Thank you
QUOTE - Drudge Dreadnought - Bolter and Chainsword
"Facts are chains that bind perception and fetter truth. For a man can remake a world if he has but a dream and no facts to cloud his mind."
User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Zaku Cannon in space?

Well, the cover from the old MS-06K model kit from Zeta Gundam is supposedly showing a Zaku Cannon floating in space:

https://myanimeshelf.com/upload/dynamic ... 2586p2.jpg

The units seen aboard the Hario are supposedly just like this one. As a side note, IIRC the actual description said that these space bound MS-06K from Zeta Gundam have beam cannons.

A while ago Mark had pointed out how the MS-06K seemed to actually be a sort of Chimera MS, having the head of a Gelgoog Cannon and legs with thrusters like those of the Prototype Dom, and overall having a lot of physical features not seen on other members of the Zaku family.

On one hand this could suggest that the MS-06K might have at least some limited hovering capabilities on the ground. On the other hand, the MS-06K doesn't seem to have any backpack thrusters, which would suggest all its thrust must come from its legs.
Jamafore
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:56 pm

Re: Zaku Cannon in space?

Ok so it's not inconceivable for them to operate in space, assuming any of the 9 built made it there. For all the times we see them, in books, shows, games and the like, I am finding it harder to believe that their production run was so small. Anyway, thank you.
QUOTE - Drudge Dreadnought - Bolter and Chainsword
"Facts are chains that bind perception and fetter truth. For a man can remake a world if he has but a dream and no facts to cloud his mind."
User avatar
JEFFPIATT
Posts: 810
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Location: Allentown, PA
Contact:

Re: Zaku Cannon in space?

Jamafore wrote:Ok so it's not inconceivable for them to operate in space, assuming any of the 9 built made it there. For all the times we see them, in books, shows, games and the like, I am finding it harder to believe that their production run was so small. Anyway, thank you.
It's been noted that some late war Zaku models were put in to extended production some of witch were built from RMS-106 Hi-Zack frames with the external zaku body built on top of it.
User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Zaku Cannon in space?

In the particular case of old Zeon MS built on Hizack frames, it should be pointed out that the MSM-01 Marine Hizack is the only confirmed case, though I wouldn't be surprised if its sister unit, the RMS-192M Zaku Mariner, shared a similar construction. I suspect that ZZ's MS-06D Desert Zaku (not to be confused with MSV's Zaku Desert Type) could be a similar case. My point is that the machines that are not using the same OYW Zeon frame had their name or model number changed to state the difference.

Back to the MS-06K, the original story was that 9 MS-06K units were produced. More recently MSV-R introduced a minor variant of the MS-06K with a gatling gun backpack, supposedly for AA defense (the supposed original role of the MS-06J-12), which is just the an equipment swap for the existing Zaku Cannons. Along with it they introduced the MS-06JK Zaku Half Cannon, essentially a MS-06J with the backpack and shoulder shield of a MS-06K, and we are told that 24 kits for making such units were made.

In mangas and videogames the Zaku Cannon appears quite often, which has led to the belief that many more than 9 were produced, and that the official figure might only represent the first production run or the prototypes. Of particular note is the unit from the 08th MS team OVAs, which among other unique features has a different cannon backpack, resembling that of the MS-09K-1. In the Crossfire and 0081 PS3 games the Zaku Cannon is depicted using that same cannon backpack. The theory is that the backpack in question is the actual ballistic backpack that caused the balance problems mentioned in the background of the MS-06K.

On the other hand, it's speculated that the backpack commonly seen on the MS-06K is actually a beam weapon, since among other things it resembles some other Zeon beam weapons. When the MS-05L was first introduced, it's background confirmed that California Base was working on developing beam weapons of their own for their MS. The MS-14GD also came to confirm that the base did have data on the Gelgoog series. Anyway, it's likely that the beam cannon backpack of the MS-06K works on the same principle as the MS-05L's and/or the MS-14C's backpacks: they have in-built generators exclusively for powering up their weapons. The background of the MS-14C pretty much confirms that since Zeon took a long time researching and finally producing weapons with E-Caps for their MS, which as in the case of the Gelgoog were already complete and functional, using generator-powered mega particle weapons was their step gap measure in the mean time.

Last, but not least, there's the issue of the thrusters of the MS-06K: as you suspected, the MS-06K does seem to be primarily a ground use MS, with all its thrusters placed on its legs and none on its backpack. The MS-06D (MSV) is in a similar situation, with its backpack essentially being one huge radiator. However, it should be noted that there have been some minor redesigns of these two units in recent years. Leaving aside the ZZ ver. of the MS-06D, MSV-R introduced a minor variant with a thruster on the lower part of its backpack and a rifle with a longer barrel.

In the case of the MS-06K, the games Crossfire and 0081 depicted it without its hip rocket guns and replacing the section where these are connected in the back with a small backpack. Also, in the 4th UC OVA, we observe how the MS-06K on it requires a detachable booster for landing after losing its Dodai YS. As soon as it lands, it ejects it. Either options provides means to add thrusters to the back of the MS, which undoubtedly would be needed for a space bound MS. Looking at the units aboard the Hario, it does seem that the are not equipped with their hip guns, so the former option seems likely in their case. The one on the cover of the mode kit does have its guns, so an external booster would the likely choice in its case. One final possibility is that they are intended to fight on low gravity area and that they have been configured to hover on the ground in such scenarios.

As final note, I want to point out that there's at least one case of a MS operating with just a few leg thrusters in space: the AMX-101E. This machine is supposed to be ferried to the battlefield by other MS or with a detachable booster and then engage the enemy at close range on a surface it can use as standing ground. Naturally it is very likely that it would be at a severe disadvantage were it to loose its footing and be thrown into open space.
toysdream
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Zaku Cannon in space?

The animation model sheet for the Zaku Cannon in Zeta Gundam has a few handwritten notes. On the cannon itself, it says "Not a beam cannon; it's projectile." There's a note that its cockpit is changed to a Hizack one. And a third note says "Space verniers are attached to the back. It is remodeled so that it can be used in space as well." The kit manual for the Zeta version of the 1/144 Zaku Cannon confirms all three of these claims.

It seems pretty clear now that the production run of the Zaku Cannon would have to be way higher than the nine units originally claimed in the MSV series. A lot of the old MSV info has been pretty conclusively obsoleted by the last 35 years of anime and side story production, but nobody's ever gone back and authoritatively updated it.

Incidentally, I think it was me who speculated that the standard Zaku Cannon backpack might be a beam cannon rather than a projectile one. I still think you could make a good case for that theory, but the odds of it being validated in the Japanese publications are probably zero. :-)

-- Mark
Jamafore
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:56 pm

Re: Zaku Cannon in space?

I hadn't thought of the verniers, granted it's a relatively easy conversion at least with some thinking. The cannon being projectile has always bothered me, if we assume the majority of the backpack is for ammunition storage, there seems to be no feed between the gun and the backpack. Which begs the question, where is the ammo stored, and if that's not the backpack, what is the backpack for? It can't be counterweight, it's on the wrong side to do anything but make the recoil worse. It can't be too much dealing with the gun, because every picture I've seen shows absolutely no connection between it and the gun itself.
QUOTE - Drudge Dreadnought - Bolter and Chainsword
"Facts are chains that bind perception and fetter truth. For a man can remake a world if he has but a dream and no facts to cloud his mind."
User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Zaku Cannon in space?

In the thread where you posted your theory on the Zaku Cannon's beam backpack you also said that there are also a lot of sources claiming that it is indeed a beam cannon, at least in Zeta Gundam:
toysdream wrote:This also explains why they're still using these in Zeta Gundam, too. A lot of sources claim that the Zeta version of the Zaku Cannon has a beam cannon, even though it looks just like the original weapon...

-- Mark
http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 60#p355769

Regarding production numbers, in your site a translation of the MSV says:

Because its mass balance problems could not be resolved, its production run ended with a total of nine prototype units, but all these machines were introduced into combat in North America.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ction.html

As you also mentioned in the other thread, the large ballistic backpack later inherited by the MS-09K-1 is probably the one that caused such problems, which in the case of the unit seen in 08th MS led to a MS becoming a fixed piece of artillery in order to overcome the recoil/balancing problems. I would even speculate if at that point the design remains something closer to the MS-06JK (the mentioned MS-06J-12 perhaps), and it isn't until data on the early Dom types and Gelgoog Cannon become available that the final design is completed.

In turn, the gatling gun could be assumed to even precede the actual MS-06K design, possibly starting out as an optional backpack for the J-type in a similar fashion as the MS-06F minelayer type.

I do am more concerned on how the beam cannon backpack would be powered up, specially if we look at the Gelgoog Cannon: the MS-14C has the same 1,440 kW generator as other Gelgoogs, yet it supposedly has an in-built generator on its backpack for powering up its beam weapon, which would mean that the later generator is not counted toward its total output. I assume the same would apply to the MS-05L if it had an official generator output spec.

Speaking of the MS-05L, I should point out that one major difference between it and the MS-06K is that the backpack of the former includes what seems to be a compact Zaku II backpack at the bottom, which might help explain why it's much larger than the MS-06K which instead has its thrusters placed on its legs.

But unlike the the MS-05L and MS-14C, the MS-06K has those odd chest cables, as well as chest vents, connecting to the backpack, so what about this: they are intended to provide supplemental power to its beam weapon, in a similar fashion as the MS-09RS is supposed to do so for the beam bazooka. In both cases the beam weapon is able to operate without the MS output, but adding it up allows it increase the firing ratio and/or perhaps slow down how fast the weapon and/or its generator overheats.

If we assume that the Zaku Cannon didn't had a more powerful generator than what the older sources claims (which could be from the time it was meant to carry a ballistic weapons), perhaps we could assume that it's role is providing cooling for its backpack.

That being said, I do would be of the opinion that the MS-06K would require a more powerful generator for powering up its YMS-09 like leg thruster setup.
toysdream
Posts: 3164
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Zaku Cannon in space?

Jamafore wrote:The cannon being projectile has always bothered me, if we assume the majority of the backpack is for ammunition storage, there seems to be no feed between the gun and the backpack. Which begs the question, where is the ammo stored, and if that's not the backpack, what is the backpack for?
The ammo magazine is supposed to be on the left rear surface of the backpack - just to the left of the cannon, and above where the "big gun" unit attaches. The old 1/144 kit manual even includes an image of a Zaku I replacing the magazine.

Gelgoog Jager wrote:In the thread where you posted your theory on the Zaku Cannon's beam backpack you also said that there are also a lot of sources claiming that it is indeed a beam cannon, at least in Zeta Gundam:
We report, you decide! If one speculates that the original version is actually a beam cannon, though, then logically the Zeta version would be as well. :-)
As you also mentioned in the other thread, the large ballistic backpack later inherited by the MS-09K-1 is probably the one that caused such problems, which in the case of the unit seen in 08th MS led to a MS becoming a fixed piece of artillery in order to overcome the recoil/balancing problems. I would even speculate if at that point the design remains something closer to the MS-06JK (the mentioned MS-06J-12 perhaps), and it isn't until data on the early Dom types and Gelgoog Cannon become available that the final design is completed.
That's what I'm inclined to think, yeah. Or alternatively, that the "perfect" Zaku Cannon is developed alongside these machines as some kind of data-gathering exercise. One could imagine the cannon pack originally tested on the Zaku Cannon being mounted on early Doms instead, while the Zaku Cannon is refitted with a new beam version in order to gather data for the Gelgoog. (Which, after all, is intended for Earth use but has no confirmed ground-usable prototype.)
In turn, the gatling gun could be assumed to even precede the actual MS-06K design, possibly starting out as an optional backpack for the J-type in a similar fashion as the MS-06F minelayer type.
Perhaps, but the basic structure of the gatling gun backpack is the same as the normal Zaku Cannon one (which we're contemplating as a beam cannon), so it seems more likely that they were produced around the same time.
I do am more concerned on how the beam cannon backpack would be powered up, specially if we look at the Gelgoog Cannon: the MS-14C has the same 1,440 kW generator as other Gelgoogs, yet it supposedly has an in-built generator on its backpack for powering up its beam weapon, which would mean that the later generator is not counted toward its total output. I assume the same would apply to the MS-05L if it had an official generator output spec.
We do have a generator output spec for the MS-05L; the backpack generator adds 700 kW to its overall output. I don't recall reading that the MS-14C has a generator in its backpack, though, and as far as I remember it just runs off the mobile suit's own generator.

Which I'm proposing would also be the case for the "perfect" Zaku Cannon. After all, it has a really unique chest design, with the higher placement of the power cables and - crucially - vents on its chest that actually resemble no other Zeon mobile suit, let alone any other Zaku type. I'm tempted to interpret these vents as part of a cooling system for a larger generator, and the rearrangement of the cables as part of a general rearrangement of the internal parts to make room for it. Honestly, these two features resemble the Hizack much more than any Zeon machine.

Just as a reminder, we do have claims - from the old 1/100 MSV kit, and repeated in the recent MG - that a beam weapon-equipped version of the Zaku Cannon was considered. From the old 1/100 kit:
Although a beam cannon-equipped version of this machine with an improved generator was also considered, there was a limit to the improvements that could be made within the constraints of the basic design, and mass production had not yet begun by the end of the war.
-- Mark
User avatar
JEFFPIATT
Posts: 810
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:44 pm
Location: Allentown, PA
Contact:

Re: Zaku Cannon in space?

We do know that most of the Zaku Type ms still in use by the Federation at least received minor refitting to make them comparable with the Hi-Zack Shield and was fitted with the Hi-Zack style liner-seat cockpit block even if they weren't rebuilt from ground up on RMS-106 frames. We do know that post war the EFF built new runs of various Zaku Types to collect data for future ms models and equiptment packs for the Hi-zack.
ChaoticSheep1
Posts: 108
Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2013 5:37 am
Location: Australia

Re: Zaku Cannon in space?

JEFFPIATT wrote:We do know that most of the Zaku Type ms still in use by the Federation at least received minor refitting to make them comparable with the Hi-Zack Shield and was fitted with the Hi-Zack style liner-seat cockpit block even if they weren't rebuilt from ground up on RMS-106 frames. We do know that post war the EFF built new runs of various Zaku Types to collect data for future ms models and equiptment packs for the Hi-zack.
Now this is news to me. Are you talking about the Marine Hizack, Zaku Mariner and the AoZ stuff? I would love to see pictures of these refited older types.
Post Reply