GN TAU drive operation time

[iamthebest22]

Hey guys, I'm working on a short story for my gunpla, and I was just wondering if anyone here has an idea how long do GN tau drives operational time in battle. I've read here I think before that an Ahead scout one can last a whole week (without battle), but in the movie, I saw the guy (forgot his name) talk about how they are running low and time on their tau drive while shooting at the "jupiter probe". I know that true GN drives have an almost infinite operational time, so what about the tau drives in the GN-XIII's? Thanks!

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

I believe that it's less the GN Tau drives specifically and more the mobile suit power in general. True GN Drives provide both power and GN particles, while GN Tau drives only provide GN particles and require an external power source to do so. Non-Gundams in 00 are generally powered by an internal battery, which is recharged as needed from a wireless power transmission system connected to the orbital elevators run by each faction (which are in turn powered by solar panels at the top end of each elevator).

I don't think it's actually possible for GN Tau drives to run out of particles as long as they still have power; the limiting factor would be the mobile suit's power reserve, which could be strained by some combination of long operating time (eg, being active for a week straight), being out of range of the recharge system (not sure what the specs are on that, though), extreme power demands (ie, draining the battery faster than it can recharge), and the recharge system being at capacity (ie, a lot of mecha all trying to recharge at once means recharging is slower for everyone).

[iamthebest22]

Right, GN tau drives need external battery(ies), so technically, if a suit has both a true GN drive and a GN tau drive, the tau drive can technically also last infinitely (as long as you said doesn't get over the power extreme needed) cause the GN drive could theoretically charge itself and the GN tau drive at the same time?

[Areku]

Confirmed:

True GN Drive -Power-> MS' Battery
________'-GN Particles-> MS' GN Condenser

External power -Power-> MS' Battery -Power-> GN Drive Tau -GN Particles (toxic)-> MS' GN Condenser

Theoretical:

True GN Drive -Power-> MS' Battery -Power-> GN Drive Tau -GN Particles (toxic)-> MS' GN Condenser
________'--------------------------------------GN Particles------------------------------------^

Practically, I think the only benefit to this mixed drive system is a GN Particle production rate of about x2 (at most) that of a single drive, at the cost of added weight and complexity (a larger variation of equipment to support the different needs of Tau and True drives and possible segregation of the different types of particles). It's unlikely that the different types of GN Particles produced by a mixed drive system could be used to create the dramatic increases in GN Particle output seen in an unmixed Twin Drive system.

If correct, that means you effectively have a heavier and more complex single True drive system with the option to use a Tau drive as a source of extra (toxic) particles if needed in an emergency.

[E08]

iamthebest22, I believe this is the Ahead variant (link:http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/00v/gnx-704tfs.htm) you are referring to?

The Ahead Forcing Scout type can last one week w/o battle due to several modifications. To increase its operating time, the Ahead Forcing Scout Type is equipped with an additional large battery (the electrical energy stored in this battery is used to power the suit’s GN Drive Tau) and extra GN Condenser. In addition, the GN Drive Tau has also been adjusted to allow it to produce a set amount of GN particles for an extended period of time.

[knighief]

[iamthebest22]

@E08 yeah that's the one, okay so as E08 mentioned, it has an additional large battery, or else it wouldn't last a week (and limits on GN particles). so Imma guess a normal suit like a GN-XIII would at most last a day (I rewatched the movie, and the part when they were chasing the "Jupiter Probe", Andrei Smirnov says that they're running low on POWER, Not GN particles as I had thought.), but if I do do it like how Areku mentioned, the GN tau drive could theoretically be infinite when in use with the true GN drive. Thanks!

[Areku]

as in GN Condenser?

Ehmmm... Yes, though I never feel comfortable calling it that. Every real-world condenser I can think of primarily serves as the means of reducing enthalpy, which is needed to facilitate a Rankine cycle (sustainability) in a closed thermodynamic system. Without a real-world condenser, modern power plants would need to constantly draw freshwater into their power-production cycle and then expel it directly as steam, fundamentally changing the design of the plant and dramatically reducing safety and efficiency.

By contrast, a GN Condenser is pretty much just an elaborate storage tank for GN Particles, functioning more like a tank or pressurizer than a condenser.

tl;dr: I forgot that what I was trying to describe was called a GN Condenser, because it's not a condenser.

[knighief]

[E08]

@E08 yeah that's the one, okay so as E08 mentioned, it has an additional large battery, or else it wouldn't last a week (and limits on GN particles). so Imma guess a normal suit like a GN-XIII would at most last a day (I rewatched the movie, and the part when they were chasing the "Jupiter Probe", Andrei Smirnov says that they're running low on POWER, Not GN particles as I had thought.), but if I do do it like how Areku mentioned, the GN tau drive could theoretically be infinite when in use with the true GN drive. Thanks!

IMO a GN-X III lasting for a day without any battle is very likely, but if there is any battling, it might not last that long. Remember that the GN Drive Tau is providing power, and GN particles for both beam weapons and thrust as well. All these can be consumed very quickly during combat.

As for the movie part, i didn't check, but the power here is it talking about energy or firepower? If it is power (as in energy), than like i said above, it is also primarily provided by the GN Drive Tau. If so, low on power likely mean low on GN particles as well.

When is your story set anyway? Depending on the time period, having a true GN Drive-GN Drive Tau combo might be very tricky...

About the later GN Drive Tau, the GN particles they emitted are non-toxic. In fact, even for the GN Drive Tau used in season 1, only the particles in beam weapons are toxic. The GN particles used for propulsion and Throne Drei's GN Stealth Field are non-toxic.

[SonicSP]

Warning: Long Post. Replying to a lot of other posts.

- The unknown and proof of viability in my opinion is whether the Original Drive has enough excess energy to give to the Tau Drive/charge the electrical batteries. How much energy will greatly affect the efficiency curve of the particle output of the overall system since it work affect things like how fast can they charge the Tau Drive's batteries, etc.

- If the excess energy isn't a lot then the MS will sortie with both reactors working at full output but the Tau Drive will probabaly drop over time to conserve energy in the battery as the battle drags on. The Original Drive will then recharge the battery slowly over time when the battle is over. The operational time should theoretical still be unlimited since you have the Original Drive there but the "particle output" graph in battle will be more complex.

Particle output wise it would still outperform an equivalent double Tau Drive unit though - assuming the hybrid system doesn't have any serious flaws due to its implementation/design.

- It would essentially be a slightly more complex version of how things work now (Areku's chart does a good job visualizing the systems). Aside from 00, Original GN Drive suits right now actually uses more particles then the GN Drive makes because most of them have onboard GN Condensers to store excess particles (taking advantage of the fact that the Original Drive works 24/7). Tau Drives do to but they can't take advantage of the unlimited energy thing.

When these excess particles are used up, their performance drops a bit because they are now limited to just the Drive output. It applies to all of them but Virtue is the best example as it's abilities consume a lot of particles and thus it has to recharge more often (despite having more storage capacity than its three brothers). It's operational time is unlimited but it's "optimal" operation time is shorter than its operational time and varies by battle conditions. Kinda of like post Trans Am but not as severe.

The hybrid system will have this system but also has another one that applies to its batteries. Basically, the Original Drive will likely get to charge the battery outside battle but the Tau Drive will likely consume more energy than the Original GN Drive can give it. You could write the story so that Original Drive's excess energy is 100% of what the Tau Drive needs but I find it extremely unlikely that it is the case.

seems like there are two type of Tau drives, early and latest.

early type
particle output rate is less than a GN Drive
they require a special starter machine to charge and "activate" the Drives
depend on electrical power to continuously generate GN particles and is not self-sufficient without recharging
advantage is that they are very easy to produce.

latest type
upgraded and improved as such their output performance can rival a 3rd Generation Gundam's GN Drive.

wonder if GN Condenser are actually more powered than Tau Drive

About the starter thing, I believe it varies by the model as opposed to being a property of the GN Drive Tau generations. The Gundam Thrones from the first generation Tau Drives are confirmed to have their own on-board start up mechanisms, however the Throne Veranus and the GN-Xs are noted to not have them. Based on these info, I am guessing that cost is the issue as opposed to technology. There are probabaly some other models that use it but it has not been confirmed in any sources.

As for GN Condenser versus GN Drive Tau, I always assumed the former was weaker. Mobile suits like the GN Archer can't function for long without docking with Arios again and there was also the really short performance 0 Gundam ACD gave at the end of Season 2. Some of the sidestory GN Condenser suits appear to do better. However generally speaking I think most examples seems to suggest that Tau usually does better especially in the longevity department.

You are correct about the Season 2 Tau Drives having higher output that matches Celestial Being 3rd Generation Gundam. To elaborate, the 2nd Mechanics book mentioned the relative outputs it as:

S1 Tau Drive < S1 Original Drive = S2 Tau Drive < S2 Original Drive

Practically, I think the only benefit to this mixed drive system is a GN Particle production rate of about x2 (at most) that of a single drive, at the cost of added weight and complexity (a larger variation of equipment to support the different needs of Tau and True drives and possible segregation of the different types of particles). *continued*

Based on what I know of series technology, I don't think the different particle types will be an issue for this system in theory. The reason this is so is because both GN Drive types can actually produce any type of GN Particles - when they are tuned for it.

Specifically, the reason why we see different effects of GN Particles in the show is because of the specific tunings of the GN Drives themselves as opposed to a byproduct of the particle generation process. The red Tau Drives in Season 1 for example are toxic in beam form because they are purposely tuned to use higher compression rates in order to optimize beam output*. The engineers needed to do this because the Tau Drive particle output is lower so this helps make up deficiency to some extent. As E08 said, this was changed by Season 2 where they are tuned to no longer have this effect.

Some tunings like Alejandro's golden GN Drive Taus at the end of Season 1 are actually identical to the red ones but was tuned as such for purely cosmetic reasons (because he loves gold).

The solution for this hybrid system then would be to make a GN Drive Tau that has the exact same tuning as the ones used by Original Drives, which would eliminate any possible complications arising from different GN Particle tuning types in one system. There likely will be some extra complexity but probably nothing too troubling since the GN Drive units later on in the show are mostly small self contained units.

*mentioned in the 300 Years Later book and a little bit in the MG GN-X manual

By contrast, a GN Condenser is pretty much just an elaborate storage tank for GN Particles, functioning more like a tank or pressurizer than a condenser.

That's pretty much correct. In fact, they are also sometimes referred as GN Particle Tanks, which is actually the only term used in the anime's dialogue as ryushi tanko/particle tank. My research into various texts seem to indicate that the terms are interchangeable much like GN Drives and Solar Furnaces in the way they are used.

Non-Gundams in 00 are generally powered by an internal battery, which is recharged as needed from a wireless power transmission system connected to the orbital elevators run by each faction (which are in turn powered by solar panels at the top end of each elevator).

From the information that has been revealed, this is not the case though. The 2nd Mechanics book (specifically Page 27) covered some advantages that Non-GNMS have over GNMS.

It says that GNMS are usually deployed near transports since they are capable of recharging them with electricity. However, it said that non-GNMS like the Enact and Flag are capable of sourcing their energy from the Orbital Elevator and have a far higher operational time. Because of this, they are used for long term base guarding duties.

As far as I know, it wasn't elaborated why the Tau Drive mobile suits can't do this as it would be a very useful ability. I speculate it has something to do with the GN Particles themselves. They usually cause a lot of interference so maybe there is too much on the mobile suit for the energy transfer system to work properly.

It is possible that ships can still use it but it isn't noted one way or the other to my knowledge.

As for the movie part, i didn't check, but the power here is it talking about energy or firepower? If it is power (as in energy), than like i said above, it is also primarily provided by the GN Drive Tau. If so, low on power likely mean low on GN particles as well.

Andrei said something about not having enough power because they've wasted their particles moving around.

The second part makes it sound like he is referring to energy reserves as he is lamenting the previous energy wastage.

It is possible that it also has double meaning as firepower because his ally said something about the ship being too big. However the "particle wastage" line would still tie the whole thing back to energy reserves. (I.E. cannot use full power because of low energy reserves)

[Areku]

With the clarification about Tau drives and the tuning of GN Particles, my current understanding is that True GN Drives function like this:

TD Blanket -Baryonic decay products-> GN Generation Furnace -GN Particles-> GN Condenser
____l_____________________________'-GN Particles-> Flywheel -> Main Thrust and/or GN P compression
____l-------------Baryonic decay products--------------------^
____'-Baryonic decay products-> Unspecified electrical conversion equipment -Electricity-> MS' Battery

And that GN Drive Taus are effectively the same but with a non-semi-perpetual, electrically powered Baryon decaying unit in place of the semi-perpetual, self-powering TD Blanket (and a Tau won't send any BDPs for electrical conversion). Presumably, a Tau's inferior GNP production (compared to a contemporary True Drive setup) is due to limitations on the quantity (and sustainability) of electricity that can be applied to it.

If that's correct, do we have any idea about the following:
- The ratio of a True Drive's BDP allocation for GNP production and electrical production
- The relative efficiency losses of a not-TD Blanket's conversion
- The exact meaning of a Twin Drive system's ability to "square" output
- The relative power density of A.D.'s battery tech. Or better yet, how long a battery of a given size can power a Tau at full capacity.

Depending on the answers to those questions, I have a few ideas rolling around in my head for sustainably "multiplying" the number of GN Particles that can be produced from one TD Blanket over a given time, though it would probably be more practical in a Mobile Armor or small ship than in a Mobile Suit.

As a side note, based on numbers I remember seeing a while back, it seems that a TD Blanket forces the decay of Protons, initially producing very high energy Positrons and neutral Pions. These products very rapidly decay or annihilate into high energy Gammas and charmed (not a spelling error) Mesons; presumably, it is these Mesons that are converted into GN Particles, though the topological defect may radically change the progression of the particle production I've described.

[iamthebest22]

WOw that's alot of info, thank you very much Sonic!

[SonicSP]

WOw that's alot of info, thank you very much Sonic!

No problem. I love discussing about Gundam 00 mechanics, so if you have any more queries to help you with your fanfic, feel free to ask.

And that GN Drive Taus are effectively the same but with a non-semi-perpetual, electrically powered Baryon decaying unit in place of the semi-perpetual, self-powering TD Blanket (and a Tau won't send any BDPs for electrical conversion). Presumably, a Tau's inferior GNP production (compared to a contemporary True Drive setup) is due to limitations on the quantity (and sustainability) of electricity that can be applied to it.

From what has been strictly mentioned in the source materials, the only thing we know about Tau Drives are that they "convert electricity into GN Particles". The TD Blanket had also been replaced by a unit simply described as an "energy converter".

Speculatively however, I find it extremely unlikely that they don't use the "use electricity to force baryons to decay" thing (I.E. I agree with you). That "convert" line is pretty broad so something like that would still fall into it. And GN Particles are pretty exotic particles, so for them to come from the same source seems to make a lot of sense even if the decay process is a little different in some aspects.

It also fits with the names of the reactors themselves. Original or True would fit because it would fit the idea that the topological defect GN Particle generation process as something already exists in nature, just harnessed and stored in a container of sorts. By contrast, the Pseudo reactor is just trying to mimic that natural process via artificial human means and doing a worse job would rightly be called a "fake".

The technologies also appear to be easily adopted into one another too, such as the case with the Trans Am System. So that type of adaptation would be easier if the underlying process is similar.

f that's correct, do we have any idea about the following:
- The ratio of a True Drive's BDP allocation for GNP production and electrical production
- The relative efficiency losses of a not-TD Blanket's conversion
- The exact meaning of a Twin Drive system's ability to "square" output
- The relative power density of A.D.'s battery tech. Or better yet, how long a battery of a given size can power a Tau at full capacity.

We don't know any concrete answers to any of those unfortunately.

About the Twin Drive squaring ability, I speculate that the squaring happens post-baryonic particle production as opposed to during particle production. Basically what this idea means is that the the GN Drives make the particles normally before another process takes that output and place them in the "exponential" process.

The reason why I went with that speculation is due to the fact that the 00 Raiser Condenser Type in the movie also uses the Twin Drive System - except that it uses them with those particle tanks as opposed to GN Drives. With that method, it is able to achieve a large particle volume. My theory just makes it more like a fancy particle multiplier system, which would make using them with particle tanks possible.

During the Pre-Movie timeskip in the 00V Senki sidestory, Celestial Being used 00 in various tests/battles with just normal two particle tanks and the Twin Drive System off. It's particle volume in these tests were far far lower. In one example, it was able to Trans Am for only 0.03 seconds.

Of course, this doesn't make the alternatives impossible just that this seems to be the most likely scenario in my opinion based on everything I know. It is still possible that the Twin Drive System on 00 Condenser was modified to use a totally different method than the one that used GN Drives.

I sort of created a theory for this a few years back that tries to go deeper into this (why don't they put a single GN Drive there to keep feeding it particles, why doesn't the Condenser Twin have an unlimited operation time, why are the GN Drives hard to sync, etc) though it is a "soft" theory given the how out there the whole thing is.

As a side note, based on numbers I remember seeing a while back, it seems that a TD Blanket forces the decay of Protons, initially producing very high energy Positrons and neutral Pions. These products very rapidly decay or annihilate into high energy Gammas and charmed (not a spelling error) Mesons; presumably, it is these Mesons that are converted into GN Particles, though the topological defect may radically change the progression of the particle production I've described.

From what the 300 Years Later book translator commented, the book doesn't elaborate into the detail on how it works and treats it more like a complex mysterious technology for the reader. But I wouldn't be surprised if how you describe is how actually works out since sometimes the fans talking about the theories will speculate more deeply than some of the writers even using existing knowledge/theories of particle physics.

All we know about the process to my knowledge is that the unspecified topological defect forces the byronic matter/protons to decay and that GN Particles are one of the natural byproducts of the energy generation process.

[E08]

It says that GNMS are usually deployed near transports since they are capable of recharging them with electricity. However, it said that non-GNMS like the Enact and Flag are capable of sourcing their energy from the Orbital Elevator and have a far higher operational time. Because of this, they are used for long term base guarding duties.

As far as I know, it wasn't elaborated why the Tau Drive mobile suits can't do this as it would be a very useful ability. I speculate it has something to do with the GN Particles themselves. They usually cause a lot of interference so maybe there is too much on the mobile suit for the energy transfer system to work properly.

Funny thing is there is a GN Drive Tau MS with a microwave power receiver for receiving energy from an external source --- the Ahead Forcing Scout Type. The large fin-like downward propulsion at the suit's back has a microwave receiving antenna, it is used to receive electrical energy when the suit is within the transmission range of a power generating satellite. However, it is not stated what the energy is used for.

Also, the Tieren Kyitwo (Tieren Taozi's predecessor) also had a microwave receiving antenna in its back. Since the HRL did not use it in subsequent MS, it probably meant that they did not see the technology as such a big deal. While the energy transmission can grant a MS (GN or non-GN powered) infinite operating time, that is only energy wise. There might be other consumables (for a lack of better words) that need topping up.

[SonicSP]

Funny thing is there is a GN Drive Tau MS with a microwave power receiver for receiving energy from an external source --- the Ahead Forcing Scout Type. The large fin-like downward propulsion at the suit's back has a microwave receiving antenna, it is used to receive electrical energy when the suit is within the transmission range of a power generating satellite. However, it is not stated what the energy is used for.

Also, the Tieren Kyitwo (Tieren Taozi's predecessor) also had a microwave receiving antenna in its back. Since the HRL did not use it in subsequent MS, it probably meant that they did not see the technology as such a big deal. While the energy transmission can grant a MS (GN or non-GN powered) infinite operating time, that is only energy wise. There might be other consumables (for a lack of better words) that need topping up.

That is pretty interesting. So it seems that it is possible to implement it on GNMS but they don't put it on most of them for some reason.

I wonder whether it may be related to the energy capacity of the transmission system on a mobile suit level? If the Tau Drive energy consumption is much higher than a non-GNMS like Enact/Flag, then it may explain why they don't bother to put it on most GNMS especially if they are mainly used for battles. It's possible that the energy consumption on regular Tau suits combined with most of them not having batteries as large as the Force Scouting may lead to the engineers also deciding that it wasn't that useful.

The Force Ahead Scouting is a reconnaissance unit and I recall its own 00V profile said that the energy consumption in battles is much higher so it may be useful to it since it's meant to just observe things for long periods. For that purpose, having the energy charged through the microwave slowly over time might be useful for extending the operation time for scouting I presume.

I think in theory for GNMS having the remote charging thing is very useful because of the most of its functions like thrust and beams are GN Particle related which is powered by electricity. For normal MS though, I feel like the system is much less useful because they rely on more consumables like solid ammo and propulsion fuel. In fact, I think it's literally just used to power the body if I'm not mistaken.

Maybe it would have been more useful if the non-GN beam weapons developed by the blocs came by (I think one of the HG Enact manuals may or may not have said something on the subject, I cannot remember for sure). I think Katharon's Enact Landstriker had one of those beam weapons right? But I presume Katharon wouldn't have had the necessary permissions to use the system....

[E08]

If i remember correctly the Enact Landstriker had a laser weapon, which can also be considered a beam weapon i suppose.

Edit: Personally, i think the remote charging for GN MS is only a 'good to have', and may not be that cost effective. Especially, when considering the main opponents for such GN MS is the older non-GN MS. These non-GN MS also likely have no access to the remote charging, and as far as i remember, there does not seem to have a case of GN MS running out of power against non-ESF non GN MS in any story…

[SonicSP]

Good to have sounds about right. The Union didn't particularly care that much that they didn't have access to their system due to most of their military operating overseas, now that I think about it.

It really wasn't used that much in the first place I guess....