Zudah & GM: Accident Prone Machines?

[Gelgoog Jager]

"...the existing GM was an accident-prone machine due to its rushed development..."

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ndam3.html

For me this line meant that due to the EF's need to speed up the GM's mass production, not to mention cost reduction, the GM was built with low quality parts and without sufficient quality control, while it was expected for it perform almost as well as the Gundam, fact that can be implied from the transfer of the Gundam's learning computer program unchanged, or rather not adapted to the GM's lower specs.

Now, even if the GM did constantly break down after every battle, I would like to assume that the EF could easily make up with its superior logistics, enabling them to get every GM repaired after every battle.

However, as far as we can see in the animation, the GM doesn't seem to have such a high failure/accident rate that could reflect such condition. In fact the best reference I can think of is the third episode of MS Igloo, where 4 GMs pursue a Zudah while being pursued by a second Zudah. The outcome is that 3 GMs and Zudah break apart during the pursuit, the remaining GM has to abandon the pursuit due to engine problems (and is subsequently intercepted and shot down) and the second Zudah has to cut off its engine before also suffering engine problems.

Prior to this, we can see a third Zudah breaking apart during a test flight, while trying to catch with another Zudah that went on ahead. The Zudah that went ahead at first the tries to catch up with the unit that is about to break apart, and while it is unsuccessful, it doesn't seem to have any engine problems at that point.

The point I'm trying to reach is: could we assume that the Zudah's and GM problems are similar?

Both units were designed with a slim frame, but unlike a Gundam that was built with top of the line components, the frame of the former two probably can't handle the same stress as the Gundam.

In the case of the Zaku, we can probably assume that they are high quality machines that can remain operational with little maintenance, based on the fact that undersupplied Zeon remnants keep using them many years after the end of the OYW.

Another important detail is that while a MS-05B or a MS-06F can't accelerate as fast as a GM or Zudah, their bulkier frame should probably alloy them to handle more stress than the later.

I'm thinking that perhaps the EF and Zudah have similar limitations due to their construction, but while the EF could use its logistical muscle to overcome the situation and keep an army of faulty GMs in working order after every sortie, Zeon probably wouldn't be able to do the same for a bunch of faulty Zudahs.

[MythSearcher]

"...the existing GM was an accident-prone machine due to its rushed development..."

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ndam3.html

For me this line meant that due to the EF's need to speed up the GM's mass production, not to mention cost reduction, the GM was built with low quality parts and without sufficient quality control, while it was expected for it perform almost as well as the Gundam, fact that can be implied from the transfer of the Gundam's learning computer program unchanged, or rather not adapted to the GM's lower specs.

Now, even if the GM did constantly break down after every battle, I would like to assume that the EF could easily make up with its superior logistics, enabling them to get every GM repaired after every battle.

However, as far as we can see in the animation, the GM doesn't seem to have such a high failure/accident rate that could reflect such condition. In fact the best reference I can think of is the third episode of MS Igloo, where 4 GMs pursue a Zudah while being pursued by a second Zudah. The outcome is that 3 GMs and Zudah break apart during the pursuit, the remaining GM has to abandon the pursuit due to engine problems (and is subsequently intercepted and shot down) and the second Zudah has to cut off its engine before also suffering engine problems.

Prior to this, we can see a third Zudah breaking apart during a test flight, while trying to catch with another Zudah that went on ahead. The Zudah that went ahead at first the tries to catch up with the unit that is about to break apart, and while it is unsuccessful, it doesn't seem to have any engine problems at that point.

The point I'm trying to reach is: could we assume that the Zudah's and GM problems are similar?

Both units were designed with a slim frame, but unlike a Gundam that was built with top of the line components, the frame of the former two probably can't handle the same stress as the Gundam.

In the case of the Zaku, we can probably assume that they are high quality machines that can remain operational with little maintenance, based on the fact that undersupplied Zeon remnants keep using them many years after the end of the OYW.

Another important detail is that while a MS-05B or a MS-06F can't accelerate as fast as a GM or Zudah, their bulkier frame should probably alloy them to handle more stress than the later.

I'm thinking that perhaps the EF and Zudah have similar limitations due to their construction, but while the EF could use its logistical muscle to overcome the situation and keep an army of faulty GMs in working order after every sortie, Zeon probably wouldn't be able to do the same for a bunch of faulty Zudahs.

Actually, from what I collected as information, the GM is a pretty stable machine, usually I think of the accident prone ones are the 1st batch, the 42 in the 42+288 number given in the GM MG manual.(This number only include the normal ones and not the variants)

The GM chasing Zudah scene I rationalize it as either artistic license for dramatic(not quite, you don't have a fight and just see MSs breaking down in a chase, pretty boring and irrational, the Zudah only need to aim its gun backwards to shoot at the GMs if they are so stupid to chase in a straight line, and the GMs are stupid to not just aim front and shoot since the Zudah is moving in a straight line stupidly, and not escaping too fast since the thrust to mass ratio of the 2 machines are not that far apart and the scene showed a pretty slow speed difference) or because the GMs are the first batch and didn't have their limiters set correctly. They might be running on specs pushing the unit to the RX-78-2 level(like generator at 1380kW as opposed to the 1250kW in normal GM, thrust as well) which was not designed for long term usage(fatigue reasons, RX-78-2 was using over spec custom made parts, while GMs are not) They obviously made improvements on the later batchs(the 288)

I must say that the overall setting for the line of GM have possibly signifigantly changed from what you quoted, the GM was not really accident prone anymore, at least not the GM Kai(79C). The standard 79C is a stable unit that went into various testing(79CR and 79SR) and then upgraded to GM II(79R, 179 are the newly built ones) and later the design are further upgraded to GM III(86R, Nouvel are the newly built ones). It is hard to accept that they keep using accident prone machines all the way until 0096(GM IIIs are still standard in 0096)

[Gelgoog Jager]

As you mentioned, the quote comes from a source which only considers MSG and MSGZ, so it probably is only referring to the RGM-79A and RGM-79B. The GM II is mentioned as a result of changes done afterwards though.

I also dug this old thread where a few interesting details were mentioned:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13809

1- RGM-79B were deployed on Odessa along RGM-79[G], since they are specifically said to already sue the Gundam data (prevously retrieved by Matilda's Medea corps).

2- It's said that out of 30 MS the EF brought for the battle, half were unable to participate due to mechanical problems. Based on the animation and other works, it seems the GM[G]s were sent to the front and particiapted in the actual battle while RGM-79B stayed in the rear and may have only participated in mop up operations. Given these circumstances it sounds likely that the around 15 GMs that had mechanical problems were RGM-79B.

3- Furthermore, this early deployment of the RGM-79B may even suggest that the RGM-79A wasn't deployed in combat at all.

The first thing that we can make out of this is the very likely possibility that the units in MS Igloo were also RGM-79B rather than RGM-79A..

The second one is that this seems to be another example indicating mechanical problems with the GM, namely the RGM-79B.

IIRC in other threads with more recent info on the GM development it seems that they were pushing ahead the production of the RGM-79A and RGM-79B, but keeping the original combat deployment dates. My guess is that the EF had gone ahead and produced the 330 RGM-79 (A-type + B-type), but as soon as they began entering actual combat, they started realizing they had some significant flaws: in space they broke apart in the battle (more like a race, as you mentioned) against the Zudahs, while on Earth they were outmatched by Gouf and specially Dom types.

So, between mechanical problems and environmental isues, quite likely led to pushing ahead the development and production of the RGM-79C and RGM-79D. The later was based on Luna II's RGM-79[E] and is probably better suited for space combat, while the RGM-79D, which is sometimes claimed to be an anti-Dom type, seems to have been designed to be used primarily on Earth, being easily customizable for different environments, including cold climates. Admitedly we don't see that many RGM-79D units as we see RGM-79C units (speically after MS Igloo), but this could also be simple the result of a a need of a larger variety of specific use ground units, such as the RAG-79, RGM-79F (land combat and desert types), RGM-79FD, RGM-79LV, RGM-79V, etc.

By the way, could also see the RGM-79R as a result of reconciling the RGM-79C and RGM-79D back into a single general purpose model.

[MythSearcher]

As you mentioned, the quote comes from a source which only considers MSG and MSGZ, so it probably is only referring to the RGM-79A and RGM-79B. The GM II is mentioned as a result of changes done afterwards though.

I also dug this old thread where a few interesting details were mentioned:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13809

1- RGM-79B were deployed on Odessa along RGM-79[G], since they are specifically said to already sue the Gundam data (prevously retrieved by Matilda's Medea corps).

2- It's said that out of 30 MS the EF brought for the battle, half were unable to participate due to mechanical problems. Based on the animation and other works, it seems the GM[G]s were sent to the front and particiapted in the actual battle while RGM-79B stayed in the rear and may have only participated in mop up operations. Given these circumstances it sounds likely that the around 15 GMs that had mechanical problems were RGM-79B.

3- Furthermore, this early deployment of the RGM-79B may even suggest that the RGM-79A wasn't deployed in combat at all.

The first thing that we can make out of this is the very likely possibility that the units in MS Igloo were also RGM-79B rather than RGM-79A..

The second one is that this seems to be another example indicating mechanical problems with the GM, namely the RGM-79B.

IIRC in other threads with more recent info on the GM development it seems that they were pushing ahead the production of the RGM-79A and RGM-79B, but keeping the original combat deployment dates. My guess is that the EF had gone ahead and produced the 330 RGM-79 (A-type + B-type), but as soon as they began entering actual combat, they started realizing they had some significant flaws: in space they broke apart in the battle (more like a race, as you mentioned) against the Zudahs, while on Earth they were outmatched by Gouf and specially Dom types.

So, between mechanical problems and environmental isues, quite likely led to pushing ahead the development and production of the RGM-79C and RGM-79D. The later was based on Luna II's RGM-79[E] and is probably better suited for space combat, while the RGM-79D, which is sometimes claimed to be an anti-Dom type, seems to have been designed to be used primarily on Earth, being easily customizable for different environments, including cold climates. Admitedly we don't see that many RGM-79D units as we see RGM-79C units (speically after MS Igloo), but this could also be simple the result of a a need of a larger variety of specific use ground units, such as the RAG-79, RGM-79F (land combat and desert types), RGM-79FD, RGM-79LV, RGM-79V, etc.

By the way, could also see the RGM-79R as a result of reconciling the RGM-79C and RGM-79D back into a single general purpose model.

In the MG Manual, they were referred to the "Early production type" and the "Late production type". The the "Early" and "Late" terms are kept in Gundam Encyclopaedia Ver. 1.5, but included variants and kinda disregarded the numbers.

From some of the Chinese forum entries, people have the impression that the 42+288 are all 79B instead of A+B.(Possibly because of the MG model?)

A few Japanese sites made it sound like the 79A was in fact better built units relating more to 90[E], which was later developed as the base of 79C and 79D, so it's the "Lunar II" development line of GMs(Which includes G, GS, SP, basically the Yutaka Izubuchi and Katoki Hajime designs). The 79B, on the other hand, belong to the "Jaburo" development line of GMs(The Kunio Okawara designs) and most variants are ground type.(Thus the Katoki designed FP actually belongs to this line)
The problem is, there are other Japanese sites reversing the A and B, and others disregarding the B completely. A particularly interesting one states that the A and B look completely the same(thus not the difference of early and late type), the differences are internal fixes and the IMPC(action modules) 79A took from RX-78-1 data, but B took combat data from RX-78-2(Amuro's combat).

I take on the view that both A and B have their own early and late production type, and the early types are simply poorly built, the production line were not yet adjusted and possibly created a lot of hiccups, just like the MS-04 development in Developers and the EFF don't really have time for all those. All they can do is produce more and find out the problems when the MSs are operating on field. Lunar II had more time and space for testing, and they have the method and know-how(beginning from Zanny) thus their development and production line are better. While the Jaburo and other land bases are constantly under siege, and likely have trouble doing decent testing. Getting their GMs on land would be a challenge, and using them in space? Pushing the limit a bit too much. Operation Odessa 30 GM like are early production types from the Jaburo line, while the ones we see in Igloo would be the same story. Late production types would be sharing data and info from Lunar II(Since they already have the WB data AND somehow shipped a few 79SP in Jaburo's Assault, even before Jaburo's own 79SC are completed) and are much more stable.

[Gelgoog Jager]

About the RGM-79A and RGM-79B, I have been wondering if the skirt armor might actually be an indication of RGM-79 being of one or the other model:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/RGM-79_GM

I you check the images, the GMs from MS Igloo, Gundam Crisis and 0081 (game) have a different skirt armor, more similar to that of the Gundam and later GM models.

Anyway, at this point it seems difficult to determine the truth about the RGM-79A and RGM-79B, and the late and early models you speak of, not to mention whether they are included or not among the known 330 RGM-79 confirmed GMs. I do I'm inclined to think that even the late RGM-79A/B models were flawed, which led to their replacement by the RGM-79C and later on by the RGM-79R.

After all, there doesn't seem indication of active RGM-79A/B units by U.C. 0087, while by U.C. 0096 there are still active RGM-79R units and even RAG-79. This do suggests that the RGM-79A/B units had to be forcefully retired or upgraded, since otherwise the EF would have just kept using them as they were for as long as they could, as evidenced by the EF's recurring practice to keep obsolete machines in service for decades.

On a different note, are you sure the RGM-79SP was developed in space? The RGM-79FP, which has very similar leg thrusters and is supposedly based on the RGM-79C seems to have been developed on Earth, specially given that the test unit is at Jaburo as seen in Spirits of Zeon. Perhaps the RGM-79SP hasa similar origin, though instead of being based on the RGM-79[E]/RGM-79C, its based on the RGM-79G/RGM-79GS, both units which lack the aforementioned leg thrusters.

Also, while the units seen on space are using recolored RGM-79G shields, the ones used by the White Dingos have customized ground combat shields (the RGM-79FP also has a custom ground use shield of its own), which make it looks like they were developed just for them, while the space units are borrowing equipment since their original shields were not suitable for space combat.

Edit: actually, we can even assume that the RGM-79SP is not even based on the RGM-79G/GS, but rather on the ground use RGM-79D.

[MythSearcher]

About the RGM-79A and RGM-79B, I have been wondering if the skirt armor might actually be an indication of RGM-79 being of one or the other model:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/RGM-79_GM

I you check the images, the GMs from MS Igloo, Gundam Crisis and 0081 (game) have a different skirt armor, more similar to that of the Gundam and later GM models.

Anyway, at this point it seems difficult to determine the truth about the RGM-79A and RGM-79B, and the late and early models you speak of, not to mention whether they are included or not among the known 330 RGM-79 confirmed GMs. I do I'm inclined to think that even the late RGM-79A/B models were flawed, which led to their replacement by the RGM-79C and later on by the RGM-79R.

After all, there doesn't seem indication of active RGM-79A/B units by U.C. 0087, while by U.C. 0096 there are still active RGM-79R units and even RAG-79. This do suggests that the RGM-79A/B units had to be forcefully retired or upgraded, since otherwise the EF would have just kept using them as they were for as long as they could, as evidenced by the EF's recurring practice to keep obsolete machines in service for decades.

On a different note, are you sure the RGM-79SP was developed in space? The RGM-79FP, which has very similar leg thrusters and is supposedly based on the RGM-79C seems to have been developed on Earth, specially given that the test unit is at Jaburo as seen in Spirits of Zeon. Perhaps the RGM-79SP hasa similar origin, though instead of being based on the RGM-79[E]/RGM-79C, its based on the RGM-79G/RGM-79GS, both units which lack the aforementioned leg thrusters.

Also, while the units seen on space are using recolored RGM-79G shields, the ones used by the White Dingos have customized ground combat shields (the RGM-79FP also has a custom ground use shield of its own), which make it looks like they were developed just for them, while the space units are borrowing equipment since their original shields were not suitable for space combat.

Edit: actually, we can even assume that the RGM-79SP is not even based on the RGM-79G/GS, but rather on the ground use RGM-79D.

Skirt armour might be an indication, but that kind of design will render the legs immobile.
If that's truely the indication of 79A, that is one big flaw they needed to improve before they can field the units. (Man, I can imagine the MS that cannot walk and higher-ups scolding in anger to the engineers) ;9

Being remodeled as 79C might not be that much of a matter of flawed on the MS itself. According to the analytic book Gundam and World War II, GM was likened as the M-4 Sherman tank, and the problem lies not in the tanks itself but the large quantity and many location it was produced. Parts produced in different location are not really compatible with each other, and are only suited for tanks produced in the same area. Considering the situation of the EFF will be even worse(Zeon actually took over quite a lot of land mass on Earth) GMs manufactured in the 6 different location might not be that compatible with each other. Thus the 79C serves as the standardization of the various parts and reunite the manufacturing procedures. That happened post OYW, thus we don't see A/Bs after the war.

For the 79SP, sources are contradictory. In some sources, it was supposed to be the cheaper variant than the successful but expensive 79SC. In other sources(like MS Era and Ver. 1.5) it finished production even earlier than the 79SC and was tested in Jaburo.
It is based on the 79G/GS(Master Archive) which is in turn based on the 79D, which possibly based on 79[E]/C, so I guess that line of production is not purely Lunar II. I assume the leg thrusters are similar to the FP pretty much just like its vision is similar to the SC, the design document is shared between Jaburo and Luna II, thus they can make different parts to modify their own produced units.

My take on this would be either they did shipped a few SP to Jaburo preparing for a land testing/preparation for a massive assault from Zeon, or at least some of the design documents so Jaburo can produce their own SP before the finish of their own SC. Some earlier models seemed to have overheating problems and cannot use beam weapons.