Cockpit question...

[-Mit-]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... 729487.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/3TV_6WbtOX4/maxresdefault.jpg

An interesting mecha`s feature in the "Fang of the Sun Dougram" and "MechWarrior Online" is the cockpit in the "head" of a combat vehicle. "Plus" this location of the pilot in the simplicity and security of ejection, however...

In both universes the cockpit have no armor, except that is bulletproof glazing... Question - "Why?"

After all, such advanced military equipment is more logical to use different sensors than a direct review; again, for the greater safety of the pilot it would be better to cover the cockpit normal armor...

So, is there any practical explanation for a controversial engineering decision?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

You pretty much answered your own question. It's a trade off between protecting the pilot and running the risk that they might be blinded by battle damage, or making sure that the pilot can always see what they're doing but running the risk that they might be more easily killed by enemy fire. Either possibility is effectively a mission-kill on the mecha (neither a pilot that can't see what they're doing nor a dead pilot can accomplish their objective), so it's more about weighing which possibility you think is more likely.

One reason Gundam tends to put its pilots in the torso (necessitating exterior cameras and cockpit monitors, rather than just cockpits with transparent canopies) is because they're also used in space, meaning that you have to have the cockpit in the mecha's center of mass to avoid giving your pilot whiplash every time the mecha reorients itself. Other franchises that don't use their mecha in space don't have to deal with that, so it might make more sense for them to use a glass-canopied cockpit in the head.

[-Mit-]

You pretty much answered your own question. It's a trade off between protecting the pilot and running the risk that they might be blinded by battle damage, or making sure that the pilot can always see what they're doing but running the risk that they might be more easily killed by enemy fire. Either possibility is effectively a mission-kill on the mecha (neither a pilot that can't see what they're doing nor a dead pilot can accomplish their objective), so it's more about weighing which possibility you think is more likely.

But it turns out that there are overlapping components - the armored glass of the cockpit to review the naked eye and sensor system collects and displays information to the pilot in different ranges and modes of review...

So maybe it would be wiser to cover the glazed cockpit with conventional armor, while the sensors are not corrupted?

One reason Gundam tends to put its pilots in the torso (necessitating exterior cameras and cockpit monitors, rather than just cockpits with transparent canopies) is because they're also used in space, meaning that you have to have the cockpit in the mecha's center of mass to avoid giving your pilot whiplash every time the mecha reorients itself. Other franchises that don't use their mecha in space don't have to deal with that, so it might make more sense for them to use a glass-canopied cockpit in the head.

What about "SPT Layzner"? He has been used in space, but it has a glazed cockpit in the head...
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/spt-layzner/s ... x-head.jpg

Or, take the "Tomahawk", ground combat mecha with armored cockpit in the head...
http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/d ... neart1.gif

[Seto Kaiba]

What about "SPT Layzner"? He has been used in space, but it has a glazed cockpit in the head...
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/spt-layzner/s ... x-head.jpg

Or, take the "Tomahawk", ground combat mecha with armored cockpit in the head...
http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/d ... neart1.gif

Um... well, to say that the Tomahawk destroid from Macross has a distinct "head" containing the cockpit would be quite a stretch. Both because that's not really a head, and the cockpit is not inside it.

The Tomahawk doesn't have a "head" that can move independently of the torso... what it has is a "face" of sorts that is a largely immobile fixture, containing two sets of camera systems (one set inside the polarized shield, the other mounted in a rail system on top of the head) and the lighter anti-personnel machine guns. The cockpit is situated behind that armored face, inside the unit's torso. It avoids the whiplash problem Brave Fencer Kirby refers to by having the cockpit within the torso, so the pilot and mecha are not turning at different rates during maneuvering.

Dunno about the titular mecha from SPT Layzner, but with a neck like that it doesn't look like the head has much traverse distance.

The example of this that leaps to mind for me is the Mortar Headds in Five Star Stories... which have the copilot's cockpit in the head, but both cockpits are armored and the cockpits for pilot and copilot alike are protected by inertial dampers to insulate them from the acceleration forces involved in Mortar Headd maneuvering. (The heads are also largely immobile, the head doesn't turn much, if at all, but the faceplate does move independently of the head to a certain extent.)

[Nebfer]

An interesting mecha`s feature in the "Fang of the Sun Dougram" and "MechWarrior Online" is the cockpit in the "head" of a combat vehicle. "Plus" this location of the pilot in the simplicity and security of ejection, however...

In both universes the cockpit have no armor, except that is bulletproof glazing... Question - "Why?"

After all, such advanced military equipment is more logical to use different sensors than a direct review; again, for the greater safety of the pilot it would be better to cover the cockpit normal armor...

So, is there any practical explanation for a controversial engineering decision?

In B-tech the Cockpit is almost as well armored as the rest of the mech, perhaps not to the point of say the torso, but in universe that is a matter of practical engineering limits. That "Glass" is not merely simple glass, though it's perhaps a bit redundant, as B-tech dose seem to use a lot of sensors feeds for the pilot, with a 360 display that is compressed to a ~150 degree display often installed in the pilots helmets, with some mechs having no known "glass housing" (the Crab comes to mind). Also noting that by in large mechs that are shooting to their rear are using their sensors as by most of their art have no direct vision ability's.

Battlemechs can mount up to 9 points of armor on the Head, the typical location of the cockpit, though some do mount it in the torso, this is roughly 563 kilograms of armor plate with regular armor. Full mech grade Armor is classed as BAR 10, the Cockpit is BAR 9*, anything above BAR 8 is largely immune to "Light Rifle Cannons" which can be argued as roughly modern day tank weapons (though which of the three types are exactly modern weapons is up for debate though heavys are noted as firing 150mm rounds that weigh 68kg**, note real life 155mm shells are 40-50kg... so thats a lot heavier than typical 155mm rounds, modern day tank guns typically fire 5 to 15kg rounds).

* This technically would make it vulnerable to critical hits by weapons that deal 10 or more damage (PPCs, Autocannon 10s, ect), but IIRC this is not a typical rule for "ground vehicles".
** oddly 17cm shells do weigh in at around 68kgs, so it's possible that a typo could be argued...

Battlemechs are space rated but generally are not used in space out side of rare circumstances (and it will be rare to see much more than 1G of acceleration (with up to 3.6km/s of to Delta V), as Aerosapce fighters are vastly better in almost every way in space at lest.

[Henyo]

aside from Layzner and the Sazabi, the only other mecha i can recall that has the cockpit on the head is Chamber from Susei no Gargantia. although i can't recall if the Machine Calibers have the same problem as Batman.(can't look over his shoulder. that is his mask problem right?)

on another note, the Machine Calibers have quite the large head Units.
anyone have any technical/supplemental data on them? I'd like to hear more about the designs choices for the cockpits.

[MythSearcher]

aside from Layzner and the Sazabi, the only other mecha i can recall that has the cockpit on the head is Chamber from Susei no Gargantia. although i can't recall if the Machine Calibers have the same problem as Batman.(can't look over his shoulder. that is his mask problem right?)

on another note, the Machine Calibers have quite the large head Units.
anyone have any technical/supplemental data on them? I'd like to hear more about the designs choices for the cockpits.

A common MS with cockpit in head would be the Rick Dias, and I always wonder if we count the Fatimas as the sub pilot, you do kinda have a cockpit in the head of the Motar Headds.

[Seto Kaiba]

aside from Layzner and the Sazabi, the only other mecha i can recall that has the cockpit on the head is Chamber from Susei no Gargantia. although i can't recall if the Machine Calibers have the same problem as Batman.(can't look over his shoulder. that is his mask problem right?)

on another note, the Machine Calibers have quite the large head Units.
anyone have any technical/supplemental data on them? I'd like to hear more about the designs choices for the cockpits.

I've not been able to find anything in terms of technical data on the Machine Calibers, though it does appear that the head has a fair amount of traverse range based on the animation.

(Of course, the machine caliber's cockpit is armored and ejectable, so it seems to be fairly well protected.)

A common MS with cockpit in head would be the Rick Dias, and I always wonder if we count the Fatimas as the sub pilot, you do kinda have a cockpit in the head of the Motar Headds.

Yes, Five Star Stories does refer to Fatimas as copilots... and on more than one occasion they do take control of the Mortar Headd's movements directly. Kyo takes partial or full direct-control over the Apache on a few occasions during the pursuit of the dragon nymph on Both and leaves Sir Bradford just sort of sitting there looking stupid. (Like when Apache was blasted into pieces by the Jagd Mirage, she took control and changed its posture so the shot only blasted the Apache's head off instead of destroying the headdliner's cockpit in the chest.)

('course, the fatima cockpit is the heavily armored type that relies on cameras and other sensor systems instead of having windows... and dodges the issues of g-forces via the mortar headd's relatively immobile neck and inertial dampers.)

[MythSearcher]

('course, the fatima cockpit is the heavily armored type that relies on cameras and other sensor systems instead of having windows... and dodges the issues of g-forces via the mortar headd's relatively immobile neck and inertial dampers.)

Fatimas are not really human, at least their body build is much much stronger than what we refer humans as. The first volume already had one jumping onto a REALLY high wall, I recall calculating the height of human jumping ignoring the strength part but only limits it to g-force, and got a number at around 10m high at 10g.(neglecting air resistance, first using the accelerating displacement a human can make with the length of legs and calculate the initial velocity needed to jump that high, squating down gives you around 50cm of height difference so a 10g acceleration gives you a velocity of about 10m/s and the in turn gives you about 10m high jump) So fatimas would be able to withstand something like a few hundred g's or more.

[Arsarcana]

Not certain about the math one way or the other but the Headliners themselves aren't normal humans either. It's a big part of the story that they're the ones lucky (or unlucky) enough to be descended from the super-soldiers of the pre-Joker era who as a result of the genetics lottery actually express those traits. And FSS has an absolutely bonkers tech-level anyways (see fully equipped Jagd Mirage, see planet go boom) so a simple thing like g-forces isn't much of an issue.

[MythSearcher]

Not certain about the math one way or the other but the Headliners themselves aren't normal humans either. It's a big part of the story that they're the ones lucky (or unlucky) enough to be descended from the super-soldiers of the pre-Joker era who as a result of the genetics lottery actually express those traits. And FSS has an absolutely bonkers tech-level anyways (see fully equipped Jagd Mirage, see planet go boom) so a simple thing like g-forces isn't much of an issue.

I can confirm the math is not correct myself, was really tired and didn't divid by 2 yesterday.
5m is the human limit(by g-force, not by muscle strength) in perfect conditions.

I know the pilot isn't really human, the 1st volume did say the fatimas has 80% strength of them, so they should be even more tolerent to g-force.

As I understand, the Mortar Headds are more like knight josting than war, their warships can destroy planets pretty easily, there's really no reason in using such limited power weapons in war. The power difference is even greater than throwing small pebbles in modern warfare...

[Seto Kaiba]

Fatimas are not really human, at least their body build is much much stronger than what we refer humans as.

As noted, the same is generally true for the headdliners they serve... though ability varies based on the quality and condition of the fatima itself.

Clotho is probably a less-than-ideal example of typical fatima physical ability on the grounds that she's a Ballanche masterpiece fatima (and therefore outperforms the average fatima pretty much automatically) and in terms of her power gauge she is the highest-spec conventional fatima in all Joker.* With a Martial Ability power rating of 3A, she's actually illegally powerful under the laws of Joker, since that makes her more powerful than the average knight.**

However... as Mortar Headds are every bit as fast on their feet as the knights who operate them, they're naturally inclined to violent acceleration and the g-forces that go with it. Knights and the fatimas that serve them have superhuman speed, strength, and reflexes, but they don't seem to durability scaled to match. The Mortar Headds are, by nature, inclined to violent acceleration as they're allegedly capable of moving at supersonic speed on the ground, hence the efforts to keep the cockpits insulated against acceleration forces that might otherwise throw the crew around or send them into g-loc.



* The only fatima whose abilities exceed Clotho's is Lachesis, who was retrofitted into a virtual demigod by her creator, Chrome Ballanche.

** One of several reasons she and the other 3A-rated fatimas are maintained "off-the-books" by their masters.

[-Mit-]

In B-tech the Cockpit is almost as well armored as the rest of the mech, perhaps not to the point of say the torso, but in universe that is a matter of practical engineering limits. That "Glass" is not merely simple glass, though it's perhaps a bit redundant, as B-tech dose seem to use a lot of sensors feeds for the pilot, with a 360 display that is compressed to a ~150 degree display often installed in the pilots helmets, with some mechs having no known "glass housing" (the Crab comes to mind). Also noting that by in large mechs that are shooting to their rear are using their sensors as by most of their art have no direct vision ability's.

Battlemechs can mount up to 9 points of armor on the Head, the typical location of the cockpit, though some do mount it in the torso, this is roughly 563 kilograms of armor plate with regular armor. Full mech grade Armor is classed as BAR 10, the Cockpit is BAR 9*, anything above BAR 8 is largely immune to "Light Rifle Cannons" which can be argued as roughly modern day tank weapons (though which of the three types are exactly modern weapons is up for debate though heavys are noted as firing 150mm rounds that weigh 68kg**, note real life 155mm shells are 40-50kg... so thats a lot heavier than typical 155mm rounds, modern day tank guns typically fire 5 to 15kg rounds).

* This technically would make it vulnerable to critical hits by weapons that deal 10 or more damage (PPCs, Autocannon 10s, ect), but IIRC this is not a typical rule for "ground vehicles".
** oddly 17cm shells do weigh in at around 68kgs, so it's possible that a typo could be argued...

Battlemechs are space rated but generally are not used in space out side of rare circumstances (and it will be rare to see much more than 1G of acceleration (with up to 3.6km/s of to Delta V), as Aerosapce fighters are vastly better in almost every way in space at lest.

So, it can be secured at a suitable level (recently learned that Japanese scientists have developed glass with characteristics of strength of steel), but the question remains the need for a direct review...

Why have both active sensors and glass? It is possible to make glass panels back-up option, in case the sensors fail, In addition, they can be given the look of the watch towers a tank...

Like whis
https://pp.vk.me/c311116/v311116602/609 ... czAeCE.jpg

https://pp.vk.me/c624420/v624420602/240 ... DvsgOo.jpg

[Henyo]

I've not been able to find anything in terms of technical data on the Machine Calibers.

Dengeki Hobby August 2013 issue has some stuff about Chamber. along with some Valvrave Units. sadly, nothing on the head. just the joints on the legs connected to the crotch part. there are some of its additional weapons.

one idea that popped up in my mind for the head placement is ease of escape. more so if on Earth/planet with atmosphere. it was thanks to some super robot examples. the Mazinger and Great Mazinger to be exact.