MS Flamethrowers During The OYW

[Gelgoog Jager]

I was checking the 4th volume of Gundam The Origin when this image drew my attention:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... afxz9c.jpg

This photo is from the battle of Jaburo, and in it you can observe 3 Zaku II units wielding different weapons, but the one that stands out is the one at the bottom, which seems to be using a flamethrower. I included the other two Zaku II units, namely the one at the top, to discard the possibility of it being a really odd depiction of machine gun fire.

Considering that Zeon forces are supposed to be fighting an army consisting mainly on smaller fighting vehicles and infantry, I do have wondered sometimes why we don't Zakus using flamethrowers for dealing with such smaller targets. In recent years the additions of the RTX-440 and MS-07G-2 brought flamethrowers into the picture, and in the case of the former it proved quite well their effectiveness against non-MS targets.

The flamethrowers of the Zaku II in The Origin manga does seem like a proper weapon designed as an alternative to the standard 120mm Zaku machine gun and I could certainly imagine units using such weapon in certain scenarios. In the particular case of The Origin units, I wonder if the standard backpack-mounted ammo container could be replaced by a fuel tank for the flamethrower when equipping that weapon instead.

Considering that over time we have seen some more retcons to the OYW, such as the addition of ballistic anti-ship rifles (HGUC Zudah/The Origin OVA MS-06R & MS-06S/new 0083 Audio Drama GP02A), gatling guns (HGUC Dra-C/MSV-R MS-06JK, MS-06K & MS-07G-2) and heat lancer/halberd (MSV-R YMS-09J/PS3 MSG Side Stories MS-08TX/The Origin OVA MS-06R), do you think that in the future other such retcons could add standard issue flamethrowers for MS, specially for the Zeon MS forces which early during the Earth Invasion were dealing with soft targets most vulnerable to such weapons?

Thoughts anyone?

[GVmanX]

Nifty idea. I love the storytelling possibilities this brings. Just imagine: a guy piloting a Zaku II would have a bird's eye view of all the people he's immolating. It's not just the people right in front of him; he can see all the Federation troops off for a good distance. It'd be neat to see a story about a man unused to such carnage seeing this day in, day out, and it's starting to get to him.

On the subject of the backpack fuel tank, what kind of material would it be made out of? For that matter, at the onset of the war, what were those ammo backpacks made out of? I'm assuming they were strong enough to withstand the brunt of early Federation weapons. If they made it to contain flamethrower fuel, though, wouldn't it need to be a bit larger so that it carries enough, or am I over-estimating the amount of fuel a Zaku II would need to have equipped to make proper use of it? Anyway, I'm just curious how easy it'd be for the Feddies to cause one of these to go up in flames.

[MythSearcher]

I was checking the 4th volume of Gundam The Origin when this image drew my attention:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... afxz9c.jpg

This photo is from the battle of Jaburo, and in it you can observe 3 Zaku II units wielding different weapons, but the one that stands out is the one at the bottom, which seems to be using a flamethrower. I included the other two Zaku II units, namely the one at the top, to discard the possibility of it being a really odd depiction of machine gun fire.

Considering that Zeon forces are supposed to be fighting an army consisting mainly on smaller fighting vehicles and infantry, I do have wondered sometimes why we don't Zakus using flamethrowers for dealing with such smaller targets. In recent years the additions of the RTX-440 and MS-07G-2 brought flamethrowers into the picture, and in the case of the former it proved quite well their effectiveness against non-MS targets.

The flamethrowers of the Zaku II in The Origin manga does seem like a proper weapon designed as an alternative to the standard 120mm Zaku machine gun and I could certainly imagine units using such weapon in certain scenarios. In the particular case of The Origin units, I wonder if the standard backpack-mounted ammo container could be replaced by a fuel tank for the flamethrower when equipping that weapon instead.

Considering that over time we have seen some more retcons to the OYW, such as the addition of ballistic anti-ship rifles (HGUC Zudah/The Origin OVA MS-06R & MS-06S/new 0083 Audio Drama GP02A), gatling guns (HGUC Dra-C/MSV-R MS-06JK, MS-06K & MS-07G-2) and heat lancer/halberd (MSV-R YMS-09J/PS3 MSG Side Stories MS-08TX/The Origin OVA MS-06R), do you think that in the future other such retcons could add standard issue flamethrowers for MS, specially for the Zeon MS forces which early during the Earth Invasion were dealing with soft targets most vulnerable to such weapons?

Thoughts anyone?

wouldn't it would be easier and more effective to just use the HEI round?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

A mobile suit sized flamethrower would be of rather limited utility, I'd think. Flamethrowers are basically anti-fortification weapons. They're capable of spraying burning fuel inside bunkers and pillboxes (even through relatively narrow openings that be hard to shoot or throw grenades through) and rendering it ineffective by either killing everyone inside or forcing them to retreat from the burning area. They're also useful for incendiary work, obviously, but that's not really a battlefield weapon.

I suppose I could see the use in sending one into Jaburo -- if they manage to break through the defenses, even briefly, then the flamethrower unit would torch every building it could reach. Even if they're driven back later, reducing Jaburo to an empty shell instead of a functional base and HQ would still accomplish their mission.

[amitakartok]

A couple of months ago, on another site, I raised the possibility of a mobile suit with flamethrowers instead of head vulcans. It got shot down immediately on the grounds that flamethrowers are way too short-ranged, obstruct vision and are just generally terrible outside their psychological effect.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Flamethrowers are "short-ranged" only relative to actual guns. People fall into the trap of thinking of "civilian" flamethrowers (which tend to use gaseous fuels, like propane) used for things like setting controlled burns for wilderness management or clearing fields for agriculture, and have an effective range of a few meters, if that. Military flamethrowers (which use liquid fuels, like gasoline or napalm) have an effective range of a few dozen meters for man-portable versions -- and vehicle-mounted ones even farther. Still not as long-ranged as rifle fire, but not something you have to be right up next to your target to use.

That said, I'm not sure what the benefit of a fixed flamethrower weapon on the top of a 20 meter mecha would be. Vulcans tend to be used either against soft (ie, not armored) targets or as anti-missile defense. They're useful for situations where a MS's primary hand-held machine gun would be overkill, and/or where extremely rapid fire is more important than the power of each individual round fired. Flamethrowers are primarily useful against fortifications and structures -- both of which MS have better options against. Using a flamethrower instead of a vulcan doesn't seem to be a useful upgrade.

[amitakartok]

Agreed. If we were to replace a mobile suit's existing integrated weapon with a flamer, I'd now pick the Ground Gundam's multi-launcher. And it could be used as a supplemental weapon in MS combat as well: spraying the other guy's optics with burning napalm would blind them. As far as I can tell, OYW-era suits rarely had a backup camera somewhere other than on the head. Plus against a GM-equivalent, best case scenario is the burning napalm finding its way into the head vulcans' barrels and causing an ammo explosion that blows the head clean off.

Or more assholishly, torching the cockpit hatch would stop the other guy from bailing out even if his ride is about to explode under his ass. No overheating the suit, however, for the same reason why Molotov cocktails don't work against an Abrams: its gas turbine engine is running hotter than burning alcohol, so dumping some into the engine exhaust won't do a thing. Similarly, I'd say a Minovsky reactor runs quite a bit hotter than napalm or even thermite.

I've been wondering, though... would it be possible to mix thermite into flamer fuel? That stuff burns hot enough to melt steel, so it should be able to fuck up even lunar titanium with a prolonged exposure.

[MythSearcher]

Agreed. If we were to replace a mobile suit's existing integrated weapon with a flamer, I'd now pick the Ground Gundam's multi-launcher. And it could be used as a supplemental weapon in MS combat as well: spraying the other guy's optics with burning napalm would blind them. As far as I can tell, OYW-era suits rarely had a backup camera somewhere other than on the head. Plus against a GM-equivalent, best case scenario is the burning napalm finding its way into the head vulcans' barrels and causing an ammo explosion that blows the head clean off.

Or more assholishly, torching the cockpit hatch would stop the other guy from bailing out even if his ride is about to explode under his ass. No overheating the suit, however, for the same reason why Molotov cocktails don't work against an Abrams: its gas turbine engine is running hotter than burning alcohol, so dumping some into the engine exhaust won't do a thing. Similarly, I'd say a Minovsky reactor runs quite a bit hotter than napalm or even thermite.

I've been wondering, though... would it be possible to mix thermite into flamer fuel? That stuff burns hot enough to melt steel, so it should be able to ZOINKS up even lunar titanium with a prolonged exposure.

I'd say it is almost impossible to cause an explosion by burning napalm, modern explosives can simply burn but not explode without a proper fuse.(e.g. C4)

And about thermite, wiki'ed thermite and I think the sourced parts has your answer.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

He's talking about causing the vulcan ammunition to explode by setting it on fire. This is a thing that can and does happen. Yes, it's true that you can't generally detonate plastic explosives by heating them (IIRC, you can actually set C4 on fire and it will burn without exploding), but the same is not true of gunpowder.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Let me address some of the comments so far:

Fuel tank:

-Material: we don't know exactly if the material for the fuel tank is the same used for the rest of the MS. We can speculate that they could use the same material used for the backpacks and external propellant tanks. Assuming that all these used the same armor material of their respective MS, during the OYW the more likely materials would be would Super High Tensile Steel for Zeon, while in the case of the EF it would depend on whether it's a mass produced unit (titanium alloy) or a prototype unit (luna titanium alloy).

-Capacity: from the 3 examples I mentioned, we can't actually see any of the fuel tanks feeding the flamethrowers. The one of the Zaku II from GTO simply isn't visible from the angle we are shown. The other two, the MS-07G2 and RTX-44, have their flamethrowers integrated into their arms, and in both cases share the available internal space with other weapons, which suggest that they have very limited fuel capacity, which could indicate either a very limited use of these weapons or a very high fuel efficiency.

HEI rounds:

-Probably the most likely alternative, and with the advantage of longer range. On the other hand, flamethrowers most likely can do a more thorough job. For example, in the first episode of MS Igloo 2 we see how many soldiers survive a barrage from a Zaku machine gun (perhaps HEI rounds could have done a better job) while in the third episode we can see how the Ground Assault Guntank completely wiped out a Zeon camp with its flamethrower, combat vehicles included.

Head flamethrowers:

-I will have to agree that they don't sound like a good idea, specially since we know MS sometimes use thermal sensors to detect targets. For example, in MS Igloo ep 2 some Zaku are looking for enemies at night among the wreckage of many tanks destroyed earlier during the day. The destroyed tanks still have residual heat and the Zakus are unable to tell if there are any active tanks until they come under attack. If a MS were to use a head flamethrower, I imagine that getting accurate heat signatures would be even more difficult.

Other:

-One more detail I wanted to point out is that in all three examples, it would seem that units equipped with flamethrowers need to supplement such weapons by having more weapons, as in the case of the MS-07G2 and RTX-440, and even the MS-06 from The Origin which should have fixed Vulcans on its arm and chest. An alternative for non-The Origin Zakus would be equipping the arm mounted Vulcan gun from the Gouf Custom/Efreet, or having head Vulcans as in the case of the MS-06FS.

-Also, the MS-07G2 is supposed to work in tandem with the MS-07G1, while he Zaku II in question was part of the large MS force invading Jaburo, which could indicate that such weapons are also reserved for units that are not going to operate on their own.

[MythSearcher]

He's talking about causing the vulcan ammunition to explode by setting it on fire. This is a thing that can and does happen. Yes, it's true that you can't generally detonate plastic explosives by heating them (IIRC, you can actually set C4 on fire and it will burn without exploding), but the same is not true of gunpowder.

Well, we don't really use gunpowder anymore. As I recall, modern ammunition tends to fire(shooting the bullet and the case in opposite directions) instead of exploding when heated up(as per experiments of MythBusters). If explosives can be made to not explode on pure heat, ammunition should be able to use same method of detonation, it is a matter of technology advances that made the firing mechanism simple enough to manufacture and cost is lowered enough.

Lastly, UC vulcans run on liquid explosive and is stored separately while only being injected behind the round before shooting. I really wonder if it will explode on pure heat. Napalm likely cannot get into the storage tank since it is used to store liquid to begin with, even if it can somehow get in, that's not enough oxygen for it to work and drawing out the oxygen from the explosives reduces it to a non-explosive. And we don't see the vulcan explosives exploding during RX-78 reentry and other similar situations. We don't even see MS-06's machine gun ammunition exploding when it got burnt down during reentry...

[Zeonista]

For the Jaburo assault, I could see some flamethrowers being manufactured and issued. Possibly they were made and used when the ZMF took California Base, and they were brought out of storage again. Flamethrowers were made specifically for assaulting fortified positions, and the incendiary agent consumed oxygen in the air as well, forcing defenders not scorched to retreat in order to avoid suffocation. If a Zaku could carry and use a cannon as a rifle, it could also use a large flamethrower as well.

Now for general battlefield use...not really. The range is comparatively short, the ammo supply is more limited in shots-per-weight ratio, and in most cases anything that can't be directly targeted by a Zeon MS's rifle can be struck with a sturmfaust or a grenade. There is also the chance of a malfunction or enemy fire causing the incendiary agent to leak upon the deploying MS. (This has happened often enough in actual history to make using one an act of valor, especially when it also makes the user a priority target for every enemy soldier in range.)

[Gelgoog Jager]

Now for general battlefield use...not really. The range is comparatively short, the ammo supply is more limited in shots-per-weight ratio, and in most cases anything that can't be directly targeted by a Zeon MS's rifle can be struck with a sturmfaust or a grenade. There is also the chance of a malfunction or enemy fire causing the incendiary agent to leak upon the deploying MS. (This has happened often enough in actual history to make using one an act of valor, especially when it also makes the user a priority target for every enemy soldier in range.)

I agree in regards of a MS equipped with only a flamethrower being a bad idea. However, please take not that none of the above mentioned examples is in such position:

-Both the Guntank and Gouf have plenty of other weapons besides their flamethrowers.
-All The Origin Zaku IIs seem to have fixed vulcans: either one on the torso and one on the left arm, or two on the torso. Outside the context of The Origin, I would like to assume that a Zaku could optionally mount the arm-mounted vulcan used by the Gouf Custom and Efreet in order to retain some alternative means of attack (in-fact, I think that pretty much any Zaku not equipped with a machine gun could benefit from having such optional weapon available, so in case they run into smaller fry they can save their heavier firepower for larger targets).

As for the fuel tank providing an undesired weak point, I think there are a couple issues to consider:

-The size of the tank: as mentioned earlier, we don't know how big is the fuel tank of the Zaku II with the flamethrower, but the other two examples seem to indicate that they can use very compact fuel tanks that are inside the arm of the MS (how fuel efficient they are or much this limits their usage is unknown).

-Damage to the MS from exploding the fuel tank: I'm not quite certain that blowing the fuel tank might necessarily result in the MS being heavily damaged or destroyed. In 08th we see a Zaku II getting its backpack blown up, and despite the resulting flare killing some villagers and the MS losing the ability to use boost/jump around, it doesn't seem to have caused any additional damage. In the case of the fuel tank for a flamethrower, all that would be lost would be the ability to use said weapon.

That being said, perhaps an other important issue to consider is how could existing MS carry around and use flamethrowers without requiring it to be included in the base design. If the flamethrower could work with replaceable fuel canisters mounted on the weapon itself (I'm thinking something along the sci-if flamethrowers from Alien, Resident Evil and Resident Evil 2), that would solve the problem of having an exposed fuel tank on the main body of the MS itself.

Another idea is that since now we have pretty much any kind of weapon available in optional forearm form: ranging from vulcans, missile/rocket/grenade launchers and even cannons (MS-14D), not to mention beam weapons. Perhaps a similar setup for a secondary flamethrower on the left arm would work better rather than having a handheld flamethrower replace the main weapon of a MS.