Should The Gouf Still Be Classified As A Melee Type MS?

[Gelgoog Jager]

Having a discussion about Gouf and Gouf Custom generally being considered melee units in videogames, I want to hear some opinions here on the matter.

In recent videogames the Gouf Custom is literally introduced as an upgrade over the standard Gouf, or if you prefer to look it the other way around, the Gouf is a Gouf Custom with slightly worse specs and weapons. My main issue with this is regarding the weaponry of these two units, namely the MS-07B's heat rod and Gouf Custom's shield gatling gun.

In the past the heat rod of the MS-07B was used in some PS2 games such as Federation VS Zeon as a super heated whip of sorts that could be flailed around and arguably be among the best melee weapons in that game. Today games like Battle Operation and Battle Operation Next have reduced it to a stun gun, mainly considering it the same kind of weapon which the Gouf Custom has, the later which is more similar to the magnetic harken of a RMS-192M.

Then there's the MS-07B-3, a unit that switches back to a standard left manipulator, which should enable it to better handle any handheld weapon the Zaku series can handle, and has a powerful gatling gun whose firepower I would like to assume is as great, if not greater, than a standard Zaku machine gun (IIRC, a discussion of MS round calibers pointed out that the rounds from the shield gatling gun are as big as those from the Zaku machine gun).

As it stands I think that in their most common configurations, these two types of Gouf fulfill quite different roles, and in particular the MS-07B-3 can break away from the idea of being a melee centered unit. On the other hand, the MS-07B can't live to the expectations of being a melee centered unit when one of its most important melee weapons (I dare say it's most important melee weapon) is taken from it.

[Jamafore]

The way I always thought of it was that the Gouf (07B or B-3) is always optimized for working in close, but the Zeon saw that the 07B was too specialized to be practical and made the B-3 as more of a multirole unit.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I think that it was the heat rod in particular that allowed the standard MS-07B to be considered a melee centric unit. After all, units like the MS-07C3 and MS-07H also had finger machine guns, but those aren't melee oriented units. And the 35mm vulcan gun Then there's the MSM-04N from MSV, which in its configuration for the attack on Jaburo was meant to have 4 heat rods for engaging enemies at close range.

By replacing the heat rod with the "magnetic harken"-like wire, the MS-07B-3 took a step back from such melee specialization, but we can probably assume that unlike the bulkier Heat Rod, it doesn't take space within the arm of the MS itself, which in turn means that the construction of the right arm is most likely similar to that of other Gouf and Zaku type units, which would be a relief from a mechanical and logistical point of view.

The optional wrist mounted vulcan gun seems to follow a similar reasoning, specially now that we know that it is compatible with other units such as the MS-08TX, and most likely also the Zaku type units.

Last, but not least, while the heat saber is indeed an improvement over the heat hawk in the melee department, weapons like the Heat Lancer (YMS-09J and Doug Schneid's MS-08TX), Large Heat Sword (Guy Helmuth's MS-09R2) or the Heat Lance from the royal guard Rick Dom's from the "Plot to Assessinate Gihren" manga, seem like better examples of the weapons melee centric units would use to overcome EF MS in melee combat.

[Jamafore]

I could not find pictures of the weapons you mentioned, (though I think I have seen the YMS-09J lance somewhere, just can't remember where), it sounds like the advantage over the heat saber would be reach. Were those suits designed after the Gouf?

Given the Ral's Gouf appeared maybe a couple of weeks to a month after the White Base left Side 7 perhaps Zeonic got intel that the feds were developing a mobile suit and decided to get started before the Gundam made it's appearance and they didn't have the data from Char's encounters yet. Whereas these other suits were designed/modified after they had quite a bit of data and the focus changed from "beating the snot out of federal suits" to "beating the ever-loving snot out of federal suits while staying out of range of the beam saber."

Granted that leaves the heat rod still in question, but even without that I would assume that all the engines on the legs and such would be to help the Gouf get into melee range where it would then holler "Blood for the Blood God!" and go to town.

Honestly imo the Gouf has to be classed as a melee suit because it doesn't have the equipment to be anything else. I can't understand how anyone thought the 07C units would be a good fire support MS. The finger guns just seem woefully underpowered.

[Gelgoog Jager]

For some pictures, check the galleries of these articles:

Large Heat Sword
-MS-09R2:
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MS-09R-2_Rick_Dom_II
-MS-09F/GB:
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MS-09F/Gb_Dom_Gross_Beil

Heat (Jousting) Lance:
-MS-09R (royal guard custom):
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Mobile_Sui ... ate_Gihren

Heat Lancer/Halberd:
-MS-06R-1A (Ortega's unit from Gundam The Origin):
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MS-06R-1A_ ... ype/Origin
-MS-08TX (Doug Schneid custom):
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MS-08TX_Efreet
-YMS-09J:
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/YMS-09J_Do ... ental_Type

Regarding the roll out of the main Gouf and Dom types, check Mark's posts on the following thread:
http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 21&start=0

In short:
-MS-07A rolled out in March
-MS-09A rolled out in June
-MS-07B rolled out in July
-MS-09B and MS-09R rolled out in September
-MS-07B3 rolled out in October

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

It's not all that uncommon for a machine's combat role to evolve from its original designed purpose after it's deployed and its true capabilities in the field become clear. (For a real-life example, the F-15 was originally designed as a pure air superiority fighter, to the point where the design mantra was "not a pound for air-to-ground", but the airframe proved flexible enough that the F-15E was used as a multirole strike fighter.)

It seems likely that, given the changing tactical situation on Earth in the latter months of the One Year War (with Zeon shifting from an offensive disposition to a defensive one, and the EFF beginning to field MS), and the Gouf's general flexibility (it was the only MS Zeon had that was designed purely for terrestrial use, which made it the natural choice as a base for other terrestrial variants), Zeon engineers on the ground ended up playing with the Gouf to see what they could make of it, rather than sticking to the close-combat design philosophy of the original machine.

That said, I'm not sure that they really get all that far from the "short-ranged powerhouse" concept. The Gouf Custom gets a bit more mid-range punch with the gatling shield, but is still a pretty close-ranged focused mecha. You seem to put a lot of emphasis on the decision to swap out the heat whip with the grappling hook wire thing, but they're both short-range weapons capable of delivering an electric stun; the whip provides another pure offensive weapon, sure, but the grapple allows for more utility options. Either way, they're both equally close-range equipment.

[Jamafore]

Thank you for the images and the info. I would guess that with the rollout dates that again both companies either had information from Zeon intelligence, or figured it was inevitable that the Federation would develop their own suits, but figured for close range weaponry that they would have something similar to what the Zakus had.

On the other hand why would they need to start development of a suit that was designed for melee against other suits that early? Just how long was Project V? o.O Even if we assume that the 07 was started as a replacement for the 06J's.

Also brings in another question though. We know that the federation captured some Zakus in the early stages of the war, but is it ever said roughly how many? Could they have gotten enough to have any significant usage besides reverse engineering? Might be a question for another thread though.

[Gelgoog Jager]

That said, I'm not sure that they really get all that far from the "short-ranged powerhouse" concept. The Gouf Custom gets a bit more mid-range punch with the gatling shield, but is still a pretty close-ranged focused mecha. You seem to put a lot of emphasis on the decision to swap out the heat whip with the grappling hook wire thing, but they're both short-range weapons capable of delivering an electric stun; the whip provides another pure offensive weapon, sure, but the grapple allows for more utility options. Either way, they're both equally close-range equipment.

I didn't say the magnetic grappling wire of the MS-07B3 was more suitable for long range combat: I said that it wasn't as good for melee combat as the MS-07B's heat rod, which can be used for slashing/whipping attacks.

Essentially, what I suspect is that the change of weapon was due to UMP (United Maintenance Plan) standardization, just like in the case of the MS-07B3 left hand. If the MS-07B heat Rod came with the downside that the internal construction of the Gouf's right arm had to be substantially modified in order to house it within the arm, then the MS-07B3's simpler and more compact weapon might have mainly been designed to be non-invasive alternative, meaning that the protrusion in the arm where it is housed could be all the space it needed and in turn the construction of the arm could remain similar to that of a Zaku, which would be an advantage from a supply/maintenance perspective.

Units like the MS-09B had to undergone such changes after its introduction, as in the case of their big hands which resulted on Doms requiring specialized grips for using Zaku weapons. Later units, such as the ones seen in 08th MS team, had smaller hands that could operate Zaku weapons without such modifications.

Also, if we observe the MS-07G-1, its arm-mounted weapons seem to be attached on the arm rather than built within the arm.

Moving on, the MS-07C3 and MS-07G2 are fine examples of of non-melee Gouf variants, specially the G2 whose gatling gun, rocket launcher and rifle should make it suitable for long range engagements. And in the case of the MS-07C3, it might have also been designed as an upgrade over the MS-07C-1 (essentially a MS-07B which replaces its heat rod with another finger machine gun arm) which was the model that we observed using the Dodai YS in the original TV series, and which is a role for which the MS-07B's melee weapons are not very useful for.

[MythSearcher]

I keep forgetting to check the setting books for a confirmation,(accessing here without the books) but from my memory, isn't the Gouf a ground combat unit and not really specified as a melee unit? Even in MSG, we see some 07B on Dodai YS and seems hardly useful for melee combat.
Wouldn't it be Ranbal's unit specially made a melee unit(e.g. with a test type heat sword using memory metal so it extends like a beam sabre) since he specialize in MS melee combat?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

I didn't say the magnetic grappling wire of the MS-07B3 was more suitable for long range combat: I said that it wasn't as good for melee combat as the MS-07B's heat rod, which can be used for slashing/whipping attacks.

It's more of a sidegrade than anything. While the grapple thing can't be used to cause direct damage, the Gouf has plenty of other options for hurting things at close range, and the grapple can be used in ways that the whip can't. Norris Packard demonstrates this quite well in his fight with the 08th MS Team.

Essentially, what I suspect is that the change of weapon was due to UMP (United Maintenance Plan) standardization, just like in the case of the MS-07B3 left hand.

That seems unlikely. The Gouf Custom was essentially a one-off unit made from parts used in the Gouf Flight Type development. The Gouf was already out of production by the time the UMP rolled around, so I doubt that had anything to do with it.

Moving on, the MS-07C3 and MS-07G2 are fine examples of of non-melee Gouf variants

The G-2 certainly seems to be an example of what I mentioned in my last post -- using the Gouf frame as a base because it was the only purely-terrestrial unit that Zeon had, rather than because they needed a close-combat design. With the C-3, it strikes me that we're talking about two different things. I've been talking about close-range combat in general while you've been talking about melee combat specifically. The C-3 is certainly a close-range combatant (the only weapons it has are the short-range finger guns and a head-mounted machine gun), but just as clearly not a melee combatant (it doesn't have any melee weapons and wouldn't be able to use them if it did).

On that point, I'd argue that the Gouf was never intended as a pure melee design. The finger guns and the fact that it can use Zaku handheld weapons if necessary show that it's not intended solely for melee combat, but rather for a close-range role in general (whether that be with melee weapons or firearms of various sorts).

[Gelgoog Jager]

I keep forgetting to check the setting books for a confirmation,(accessing here without the books) but from my memory, isn't the Gouf a ground combat unit and not really specified as a melee unit? Even in MSG, we see some 07B on Dodai YS and seems hardly useful for melee combat.

In the thread about the YMS-07A-0, bilbros mentioned that the MSD file seems to indicate that thsoe are actually MS-07C-1, which if I understood correctly are Goufs with 75mm finger machine guns on both hands (essentially early versions of the MS-07C-3):

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16681

Wouldn't it be Ranbal's unit specially made a melee unit(e.g. with a test type heat sword using memory metal so it extends like a beam sabre) since he specialize in MS melee combat?

That's the first time I have heard an actual explanation for what I always considered a continuity error (a Gouf with a beam saber/sword). Any other details about it that you can share with us about that?

It's more of a sidegrade than anything. While the grapple thing can't be used to cause direct damage, the Gouf has plenty of other options for hurting things at close range, and the grapple can be used in ways that the whip can't. Norris Packard demonstrates this quite well in his fight with the 08th MS Team.

I'm not saying that the grappling wire doesn't have alternative uses, but that its not as useful for direct melee combat as the heat rod which can cause direct damage, grapple and electrocute targets. On the other hand, the RMS-192M's magnetic harken is seen being useful for wired communication with other units, so that's another example of the different uses such weapons have.

That seems unlikely. The Gouf Custom was essentially a one-off unit made from parts used in the Gouf Flight Type development. The Gouf was already out of production by the time the UMP rolled around, so I doubt that had anything to do with it.

We know of a few more units around, such as the ones from MS Igloo 2, The Plot to Assassinate Gihren, Zeon MS Boys: The War of Independence and the units from Zeonic Front (between 2 and 6, depending on whether you like to include or not additional team units), so it certainly wasn't a one of a kind unit.

Also, let's not forget that even late in the war Zeon was still developing and upgrading older models, even after the introduction of the MS-09B Dom, such as the MS-05L, MS-05Q, MS-06FZ, MS-06JK, MS-06K, MS-07G-1, MS-07G-2, MS-07W and MS-08TX/N. Even the MSM-06 was introduced after the MSM-07 (claimed to be Zeon's most succesful amphibious MS) had already been mass produced.

With the C-3, it strikes me that we're talking about two different things. I've been talking about close-range combat in general while you've been talking about melee combat specifically. The C-3 is certainly a close-range combatant (the only weapons it has are the short-range finger guns and a head-mounted machine gun), but just as clearly not a melee combatant (it doesn't have any melee weapons and wouldn't be able to use them if it did).

The profile of the MS-07C-3 seems to suggest otherwise: essentially it says that the MS-07B is limited by its permanent equipment of a heat rod and 75mm finger MG, despite being meant to replace the MS-06J which had a more well-rounded armament. furthermore, its profile specifies that the 30mm vulcan gun was added to give it close-range firepower, not supplement it, which would suggest that despite their awkward design, the 85mm finger MG are well suited for longer range combat and perhaps not so much for close range combat:

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msv/ms-07c-3.htm

The thread about Zaku machine gun calibers might point in such direction, since it was pointed out that the actual length of the Zaku MG's 120mm rounds might be 75-76mm, which could put it on par with the Gouf's 75mm finger MG, and below the MS-07C3's 85mm finger MG, assuming the Gouf's internal weapons are using caseless ammo (which seems to be the case):

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15768

In short, the 85mm rounds of the MS-07C3 might actually be more powerful than the rounds of a 120mm Zaku MG.

On that point, I'd argue that the Gouf was never intended as a pure melee design. The finger guns and the fact that it can use Zaku handheld weapons if necessary show that it's not intended solely for melee combat, but rather for a close-range role in general (whether that be with melee weapons or firearms of various sorts).

Actually, on the YMS-07A-0 thread we were also discussing how the units we see using 120mm Zaku MG (or the one using the Giant Bazooka at Jaburo) are probably MS-07A units, which lack fixed weapons, but in turn can use handheld Zaku weapons. The profile of the MS-07C3 would seem to further point in that direction.

[MythSearcher]

In the thread about the YMS-07A-0, bilbros mentioned that the MSD file seems to indicate that thsoe are actually MS-07C-1, which if I understood correctly are Goufs with 75mm finger machine guns on both hands (essentially early versions of the MS-07C-3):

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16681

Well, I checked Gundam Encyclopaedia Ver. 1.5, the MS-07B's are more of a ground combat MS that gave more specialization in melee combat. You can say it is a melee unit, but that is comparing with space combat units where melee is less likely.

That's the first time I have heard an actual explanation for what I always considered a continuity error (a Gouf with a beam saber/sword). Any other details about it that you can share with us about that?

Oh, this is from Gundam Officials Heat weapon section, I don't remember the actual numbers, but the Gouf(which is using the special testing heat sword) and the Gouf Custom(which is using the standard Gouf heat sword) have different numbers for them. (It's like a Heat Sword mod.5 and Heat Sword mod. 7 difference, just making up numbers here to demonstrate)

I don't remember the exact wordings, but the Ranbal's Gouf heat sword uses a memory reform metal/material that inflates/extends when activates, which they considered quite impractical/inefficient so they did not mass-produce it, hence the normal heat sword with a rigid blade.
As I recall, the article even gave an estimated life span(average number of use in a range) of the few prominent models(Like the Zaku Heat Hawk, the Gouf Heat sword and the Dom Heat Sabre, where they rationalize the Dom's sabre is least since it is slimmer)
I'll probably have time to check and verify whatever is incorrect two days later, hope I still remember then.

Of course, IRL, they did not really think about it during the making of MSG and probably thought of giving the Gouf a beam sword, but later reconsidered it. I guess they still couldn't make up something that sounds remotely reasonable for the Gouf eye beam. =P

[Xenosynth]

Actually random question because I have never seen it talked about and since this is a gouf thread, though slightly off topic: is there any sources that point to what the Gouf Custom's grappling wire is made of? We see it supporting quite a bit of weight both in the show and in side series/games.

[MythSearcher]

Coming back for the detailed settings.
P.566~567, Heat type weapons and Heat Rod.(2 topics)
Not going to translate the whole thing, giving the jist only.
Heat weapons are weapons modeled after sword type weapons(I assume this means melee), the blade heats up to cut through enemy armour. It uses the electricity from the thermonuclear generators of the MS and the blade is made up of ceramic materials. It heats up immediately and no need to wait.
This kind of weapon compared to the EFF Beam Sabre is very weak, and can be viewed as a product of a slow development towards beam weaponery.
MS-05 has Heat Hawk type 3, MS-06 is the successor type 5. Predicting the use of heat weapons like a sword and will be used against other MS in melee combats, the MS-07 was equipped with the heat sword, and it can be used for a dozen of times in one combat.
Later the MS-07 C series use heat sabre, and have also been used by the MS-09.
Heat sabres has a slimmer blade(less area), and is designed to puncture instead of cutting, it is easier to use and has a higher efficiency than the heat hawk. However, this is in exchange of the fast degrading of the heating device and basically a one-off weapon.
Heat sabres also has a few difference types, MS-09R uses the type 7.
When heat weapons parry with beam sabres, the high electricity plasmarize the surface of the blade and counters the field of the beam sabre.
Heat Rod is basically an extendable heat weapon, skipping most stuff about it, it can also release electricity and stunt the actuators on MSs. The MS-07B Gouf heat rod can extend up to 17.5m, while the B-3 changes the spec and making it thinner and longer, but does not heat up, and is mainly used against eletronics.

P.209 Gouf
The Heat sword used by the MS-07B is called a heat knife.(pic)
P.210 Gouf(cont'd)
B-3 used a discardable 75mm Gatling. EFF MS standard equipment beam sabre is very powerful, and the melee built MS-07 is very risky going into battle, thus this is developed so that the MS can start a shooting combat before entering into melee combat. Point of note, the B-3 armour, just like the H-8 varient, is rumoured to have used Lunar Titanium.(which is not mass produced by Zeon, thus a lot of people doubted this)

[Gelgoog Jager]

This talk about the limited use (number of times) of heat weapons got me thinking of a few things:

-Given their limited use, I'm surprised we don't see more units carrying a spare melee weapon, though I think we could rationalize that as a measure to avoid increasing the weight of the MS too much.

-However, a measure that could have been implemented to counter that problem would have been the more widespread use of smaller heat weapons, such as the MS-08TX/S heat darts or the AMS-129M heat knives. A MS could carry a large main heat weapon and a smaller backup one. Another option could be a more widespread use of the heat bayonet seen on the MSV-R version of the MS-06S.

-I assume that the largest heat weapons, such as the MS-08TX/YMS-09J heat lancer and the MS-09R2 (Missing Link) large heat sword are among the heat weapons with highest number of uses. As a side question: does anyone know if the jousting lance of the MS-09R in the Gihren's Greed manga is supposed to be a heat weapon? I would like to assume that in-universe the heat lance used by the AMX-101S, AMX-117L & AMX-117R is supposed to be based on it.

-I'm a bit confused on where does the MS-08TX/N cold weapons fit in: Since they are not using heat to cut/pierce, should we assume that they are actually sharp weapons (perhaps similar to the red Astray's katanas in CE). I should also point out that such approach seems to be similar to the one the wire of the MS-07B3 took, so perhaps there's supposed to be some relationship here?

-Aren't beam sabers supposed to also be restricted in their use, though in their case by the amount of time the beam saber can be used before recharging?

[Zeonista]

If one understands "melee Mobile Suit" to mean "Mobile Suit designed/adapted for close range combat" then yes, it is a melee MS. The only Gouf version I can think of that does not feature close combat as a focus would be the EFF Gouf-H types seen at Jaburo in Zeta Gundam. Short-barreled finger & forearm cannons, heat swords, actual shields, the awesome heat rod and heat serpent... Yeah, they are meant to engage at close range, with only one long-range weapon like a 120mm MG or 75mm gatling MG being carried in ZMF use.

The use of the Gouf and Gouf Custom in key anime story scenes more or less is validation of the melee designation. Miyamoto Musashi recommended sticking close to numbers of foes and crowding/herding them to keep momentum and prevent a concentration of opposing force. It would seem his advice showed up in the ZMF here. Ranba Ral and Packard Norris take full advantage of their Goufs' close combat capability to offset superior EFF MS firepower and get in close. The in-your-face combat style is effective and intimidating as well, especially when coupled with the heat rod or heat serpent.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I just remembered that in the Gundam Senjou no Kizuna videogames MS are classified in 5 classes:

-Melee type
-Short Range Type
-Middle Range Type
-Long Range Type
-Sniper Type

More or less what I intend to point out is that while the MS-07B would fit the classification of melee type MS, units like the MS-07B3 can fit in some other roles depending on their load out:

-The MS-06G is often depicted in videogames using a giant bazooka as its main weapon.

-A MS-07B3 with the gatling shield could easily fit the role of a short/middle range unit, while one using a giant bazooka or magella top gun (thanks to its standard manipulators) could be classified as a middle/long range unit.

-The MS-08TX can be equipped with weapons ranging from a heat sword and shotgun to a heat lancer and giant bazooka.

-Even the melee focused MS-08TX/S is initially using a giant bazooka for engaging the enemy at long range, and later switches to using its many heat darts in melee combat.

That being said, Zeonista has mentioned something important: some MS-07H with finger machine guns on both hands are seen using giant bazookas in Zeta Gundam. Now, AFAIK theses Goufs aren't actually shown using their finger machine guns, so perhaps we could assume that the EF replaced them with standard manipulators. But since we don't have any solid proof of that being the case, I think we do could assume that the MS-07B and MS-07H/H4 are capable of using at least some handheld weapons.

On the other hand, let's remember that having a unit being quite capable in close range combat doesn't mean it can't handle long range combat as well. The Gelgoog and Gundam are both examples of units that can exceed at both melee and ranged combat.

[Zeonista]

I just remembered that in the Gundam Senjou no Kizuna videogames MS are classified in 5 classes:

-Melee type
-Short Range Type
-Middle Range Type
-Long Range Type
-Sniper Type

More or less what I intend to point out is that while the MS-07B would fit the classification of melee type MS, units like the MS-07B3 can fit in some other roles depending on their load out:

That was my understanding too, that loadout and pilot usage would be the determinating factor for a MS classification. It should be a caution towards arbitrarily classifying some MS, since a certain multi-role functionality was built into the House of Zaku. It should be acceptable that a MS can change its class according to loadout per mission requirements or pilot preference. You have given many useful examples above.

-A MS-07B3 with the gatling shield could easily fit the role of a short/middle range unit, while one using a giant bazooka or magella top gun (thanks to its standard manipulators) could be classified as a middle/long range unit.

The MS-07B3 and MS-07H8 could be rated short/middle range with their gatlings equipped. Given that those units provided anti-air defense for Shuddering Mountain as well as ground defense, it would be good to engage EFF aircraft at some range beyond the finger/forearm cannons. The finger cannon only MS-07D & H models would be good short-range units for air defense against EFF fighter-bombers. The ground-pounder MS-07C3 is a short-range attacker by design & necessity.

However, giving a melee or short-range combatant a long-range weapon to keep from making it useless at the beginning of an engagement at range makes sense, to the point where it is almost beyond comment.

That being said, Zeonista has mentioned something important: some MS-07H with finger machine guns on both hands are seen using giant bazookas in Zeta Gundam. Now, AFAIK theses Goufs aren't actually shown using their finger machine guns, so perhaps we could assume that the EF replaced them with standard manipulators. But since we don't have any solid proof of that being the case, I think we do could assume that the MS-07B and MS-07H/H4 are capable of using at least some handheld weapons.

Due to game-related needs I had gone over the EFF Gouf-H some in their brief appearance. They were definitely equipped with the original finger cannons, complete with magazines on the forearms. (Basically the MSV design with a new coloring job.) Not fixed-barrel hands like previous types of cannon hands, these were meant to be semi-flexible manipulators. They were gripping giant bazookas as the proof!

The C3 from Castle Zeonstein in Gundam Unicorn had the same general type of barrel-digit hands as described above. The H8 definitely had standard Zaku/Gouf-style manipulator hands, with a lot of implied loadout flexibility. This was shown in the animation and on the HG model.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I also think that the finger machine guns must be at least somewhat flexible.

That being said, recent videogames such as Gundam Battle Operation (PS3), GBO Next (PS3 & PS4) and Gundam Side Stories (PS3) introduced a change to the Gouf's finger machine guns: the thumb is no longer a barrel, but a sight for the other 4 fingers. Essentially, I think they tried to take the same approach they took with the AMX-101 Gallus J, which is also said to only have 4 finger machine guns.

I believe such approach makes sense given that when the other finger line up for firing, they end up lined up with the rest of the arm, but the thumb on the other hand is kind floating outside the rest of the arm mechanism. Making the thumb a sight means that it can be more flexible than the barrel fingers and that alone could make the hand in question much more useful.

As for the MS-07H8, I think the main reason it has standard manipulators is because of the United Maintenance Plan (UMP). I need to emphasize that the background info indicates that Zeon had been trying the enforce the plan long before the proper UMP MS (MS-06FZ, MS-09R2 and MS-14JG) were built. One such case would be the modification of MS-09B units which originally had manipulators larger than a Zaku and therefore could not operate the same weapons as the later if they didn't replace the grip with a larger one. Mark referred to the Doms in 08th MS team as "UMP-compliant", and I think that both the MS-07B3 and MS-07H8, which were introduced late in the conflict, were probably designed with such concept in mind as well, which is why the both replaced the fixed finger machine gun of their respective base model for standard manipulators.

[Zeonista]

The original series Goufs did not have flexible gun-hands, as Ranba Ral never did anything with his MS-07B's left hand except to shoot. (If the gun-hand agrasped anything I cannot remember it.) This was further brought out in Gundam Build Fighters to where the R-35 Gouf had the MS-07B rigid gun-hands mounted on its forearms as cannon mounts! But subsequent MSV models had finger-barrels that were meant to be fingers as well. I do not have enough knowledge of projectile ballistics to determine if this would work out in real life or not. Apparently Zeonic's design engineers were able to obtain satisfactory results.

Using the thumb as a gun sight has some appeal and reason behind it, especially since we are repeatedly reminded in UC that the Mk 1 Eyeball is still the primary aiming system. It also is a neat solution to the curved-barrel dilemma of shooting through a thumb.

To step sideways, one should note the Gouf Inferno from Gundam Seed Destiny is definitely a short-range MS despite having forearm beam guns instead of autocannons.