Carrying Capacities in "Macross"

[-Mit-]

Interestingly, from the point of view of a military concept, does it make sense to create a large artillery ships in the world, where absolute superiority belongs to the carriers?

[Seto Kaiba]

Interestingly, from the point of view of a military concept, does it make sense to create a large artillery ships in the world, where absolute superiority belongs to the carriers?

There's not much use for large-scale artillery in a surface navy... thanks to the range limitations of direct-fire weapons in surface combat and the prevalence of aircraft carriers.

Space combat is another story.

With limiting factors like significant gravitational fields or the curvature of the planet's surface out of the picture, large-scale artillery becomes much more practical... especially at long ranges. It's especially true in Macross's setting, where the range of beam artillery and other ship-based energy weapons can be tens of thousands to hundreds of millions of kilometers*. That effectively made battleships and other vessels mounting large-scale naval artillery practical again, though it matters more to the Zentradi because they can't reproduce reaction weaponry and thus have no choice but to rely on beam artillery to destroy enemy ships.

The (New) UN Forces seem to be content to rely on carrier-based tactics and reaction weaponry instead of battleships bristling with beam artillery, though even they tend to make sure that the emigrant fleets and planetary defense forces include at least one fortress-type ship with a large scale dimension weapon capable of obliterating dozens or hundreds of ships in a single shot.



* The "winner" in terms of range is probably the Ingues mobile fortress from Macross II: Lovers Again, which was able to fire its energy irradiation weapon from the orbit of Saturn and hit ships in orbit of Mars, a distance of over 700 million km.

[-Mit-]

Do not argue, but I must say that the "Lacrosse" leading role in space combat still for aviation, thanks to the combination of small size and ability to carry reaction weaponry - in fact 1 fighter can destroy a few ships...

especially in times of a Frontier, through the use of compact "hopping" engines "Valkyrie" can materialize in the middle of enemy naval squadron and fire...

no Wonder that even frigates have a small squadron, and therefore doubt that "Stealth Cruiser" pure artillery ship :/

[Seto Kaiba]

Do not argue, but I must say that the "Lacrosse" leading role in space combat still for aviation, thanks to the combination of small size and ability to carry reaction weaponry - in fact 1 fighter can destroy a few ships...

Like the use of nuclear weapons in the modern day, the use of reaction weapons in combat is very strictly regulated by the (New) Unification Government. Aviators remain the trump card in the UN Forces because, even without reaction weapons, many variable craft or dedicated space fighters in the setting are armed well enough to threaten a capital ship, and because the Zentradi didn't really change their tactics much despite having lost the ability to produce reaction weapons over 280,000 years ago.

especially in times of a Frontier, through the use of compact "hopping" engines "Valkyrie" can materialize in the middle of enemy naval squadron and fire...

Not the safest of all possible maneuvers... on account of the large blast radius of a thermonuclear or pair-annihilation reaction warhead, but also because the process of transitioning to or from the higher dimensions used in fold travel takes several seconds, leaving the craft vulnerable during a fold-in or fold-out. (Perhaps best illustrated in Macross II, when the battleship Heracles emerged from a fold jump too close to the battle line and was shot to pieces before it could even finish orienting itself.)

no Wonder that even frigates have a small squadron, and therefore doubt that "Stealth Cruiser" pure artillery ship :/

By all accounts, most Northampton-class frigates only carry about a platoon's worth of VF's under normal operating conditions... those fighters are there to both protect the ship and provide reconnaissance and early warning functions.

[-Mit-]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ ... g~original

What is this ship? Any information about her?

[Deathzealot]

Ah! The Daedalus II! I love this ship! However as far as I know there is little about her anywhere. She is in the Macross 2036 Game which I am told takes place in the same continuity as Macross II. The other thing I know thanks to reading an old forum on Macross World is that she performs a full-on Daedalus/Macross Attack on an enemy ship.

[MrMarch]

Unfortunately I have no information on this ship. As Deathzealot stated, it is in the Macross 2036 video game made in 1992. However, like a few of the video game mecha and spaceships, they doesn't appear in either the 1st or 2nd editions of the Macross Chronicle, so it's unlikely any official trivia about the craft will be forthcoming

[Wingnut]

Ah! The Daedalus II! I love this ship! However as far as I know there is little about her anywhere. She is in the Macross 2036 Game which I am told takes place in the same continuity as Macross II.

Objection!
This evidence is a clear contradiction to that statement. At the forefront of the formation in front of the Daedalus II, you can clearly see a VF-4 Lightning III leading the pack. It can be seen again in this image. To my knowledge, no such fighter exists in the Macross II timeline.

The other thing I know thanks to reading an old forum on Macross World is that she performs a full-on Daedalus/Macross Attack on an enemy ship.

That she does.

[Seto Kaiba]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ ... g~original

What is this ship? Any information about her?

That is a Daedalus II-class space carrier/assault ship, from the "parallel world" timeline to which Macross II belongs. They're an evolution of the ARMD-class space carriers and were introduced in the mid-2030's during the Neld Fleet crisis.

Two ships of the class are particularly noteworthy... the Daedalus II and her sister ship, the Prometheus II, which were involved in the UN Forces' successful counterattacks against the Zentradi Neld and Burado main fleets in the 2030's. They're noted to have carried both the VF-4 Siren and VF-1_R "Refined Valkyrie", as well as various destroids. The design appears to have been abandoned after the 2054 Zentradi invasion.

Unfortunately I have no information on this ship.

Now that's not true... it was a thread about that very ship that you dragged me here to see years back. The trivia ain't super detailed, but there is a little WRT its complement and service history.

This evidence is a clear contradiction to that statement. At the forefront of the formation in front of the Daedalus II, you can clearly see a VF-4 Lightning III leading the pack. It can be seen again in this image. To my knowledge, no such fighter exists in the Macross II timeline.

Objection!

(Thank you for letting me get that out of my system... I've been playing Duel Destinies in my spare time, and you just have to say it at some point, y'know?)

If you examine the Macross II issue of the Bandai Entertainment Bible series, or the official Macross II timeline, you'll note Flashback 2012 (and the VF-4) are prominently included in the parallel world timeline to which Macross II belongs.

Anyway... the Daedalus II-class space carrier IS, in fact, a design from the Macross II "parallel world" timeline. It was one of several new designs created for two Turbografx-16 (AKA "PC Engine") video games made alongside the OVA to fill in part of the official timeline which the producers released, and to promote the OVA as well. The first of the two games was Macross 2036, an R-Type-style side-scrolling shooter starring Komilia Maria Jenius (plus her love interest-slash-wingman Lott Sheen). The second was the TRPG Macross: Eternal Love Song, which was the first time the VF-4 was depicted transforming... though, at that time, Kawamori's design didn't have an official name and the Macross II staff dubbed the video game version "VF-4 Siren" instead. (There are nods to this older name in some sources.)

[MrMarch]

Now that's not true... it was a thread about that very ship that you dragged me here to see years back. The trivia ain't super detailed, but there is a little WRT its complement and service history.

Seriously dude, I'm not going to remember that. But if you have some stats, post 'em here.

[-Mit-]

Do you know anything about the time of commissioning of the ship classes after the "First Space War"? I mean how long had you served ships ARMD and ARMD II, integrated court zentradi in the structure of the space fleet, what models existed prior to the passage of Northampton and Guantanamo" and any other historical details?

[MrMarch]

Yes, there's some information. Depends upon the class of ship. We know the commissioning dates of some of the New Macross Class vessels and when they began construction. I'd just recommend looking at the individual class profiles for information rather than reposting all of the here.

We know the Megaroad and SDF Macross classes kept being constructed. So they existed in larger numbers post Space War I.

The surviving 100 ships of the Zentradi Adoclass fleet were integrated into the UN Spacy immediately after SWI, with Britai's ship recommissioned into the first Battleship of the UN Forces in 2010.

The video games feature some craft like Daedalus II (active during 2036) and the Saratoga II (active during 2050). But the three main space craft (Guantanamo, Northampton, Uraga) are meant to represent the vast majority of the UN Forces fleet composition following Space War I. CHeck their profiles for commission dates and build dates. They built a lot of these ships, especially Northamptons (said to be 9,000 ships as of 2045).

There are other fleet ships - like those in the Macross Galaxy fleet - but they seemed to come along later and are the exception rather than the rule.

[Deathzealot]

What about the Oberth-II Class? Are they fanon or maybe even a sort-of canon? Since I seem to remember reading something about them in early Megaroad fleets. Then again that may have been some sort of fan theory.

[Seto Kaiba]

Do you know anything about the time of commissioning of the ship classes after the "First Space War"? I mean how long had you served ships ARMD and ARMD II, integrated court zentradi in the structure of the space fleet, what models existed prior to the passage of Northampton and Guantanamo" and any other historical details?

There's relatively little data available about the transition from one class of ship to another in the canon and pseudo-canon Macross sources. It doesn't help that there are some contradictory aspects of service history surrounding the ARMD II-class either.

Piecing together the available tidbits and hints in Macross Chronicle and Master File, the ARMD-class continued to be produced after the first space war. Exactly when they were discontinued or how many were made isn't clear, but it appears that they were built alongside the newer ARMD II-class in the 2010's and both classes were used for emigrant fleet escort and planetary/system defense. The ARMD II-class was developed after the first space war, and we saw two of the first ships completed in 2012. Available information suggests the ARMD-classes were recalled to port for upgrade, retrofit, and/or retirement starting in 2029, but that a number of fleets and planets continued to use the ships well into the 2040's*.

Details surrounding the ARMD II-class get screwy again regarding the new Advanced ARMD Guantanamo-class as well. Master File cites two contradictory "first build" dates for the Guantanamo-class... one in 2017, and one in 2026. Based on the hull numbers, I think that the 2026 number is probably the correct one. It sounds like the two were built side-by-side between 2026 and 2029, and then ARMD II-class construction ended with upwards of 240 ARMDs in service**.

As far as Northampton predecessors, the original emigrant fleets continued to use the old Oberth-class space destroyers. There is a space cruiser that appears in Macross M3 (the Algenicus-type) which is implied to be a forerunner of the Northampton-class that served in the late 2010's and 2020's before being supplanted. The only hint to the age of the Northampton-class comes from Macross Chronicle, which indicates that the ship's basic design is at least 30 years old in 2059. (Meaning it was likely introduced in the 2020's.)

What about the Oberth-II Class? Are they fanon or maybe even a sort-of canon? Since I seem to remember reading something about them in early Megaroad fleets. Then again that may have been some sort of fan theory.

Yep, that's fanon... specifically, it's based on the silhouette of an Oberth-class destroyer that appeared alongside the Megaroad-01, which looked a little odd/bumpy.

It is, however, canon that space destroyers were used in the early emigrant fleets.



* In Macross 7, the establishing shot of the Macross-1 fleet's departure from the shipyards in Earth orbit shows that at least one ARMD II-class carrier was part of the fleet. Also, the Macross 7 Trash manga, set in 2046, shows a modified/upgraded version of the original ARMD-class carrier in the Macross-7 fleet. The ARMD II also continued to be used on Macross-class fortresses, which remained in service well into 2060 (e.g. SDFN-08 General Vrlitwhai Kridanik).

** The highest sequentially numbered ARMD mentioned thus far is ARMD-244 Lassen Peak. The lowest sequentially-numbered Advanced ARMD mentioned thus far is ARMD/CV-299 Guantanamo.

[Deathzealot]

What about the Oberth-II Class? Are they fanon or maybe even a sort-of canon? Since I seem to remember reading something about them in early Megaroad fleets. Then again that may have been some sort of fan theory.

Yep, that's fanon... specifically, it's based on the silhouette of an Oberth-class destroyer that appeared alongside the Megaroad-01, which looked a little odd/bumpy.

It is, however, canon that space destroyers were used in the early emigrant fleets.

Heh. Well kind of figured but wasn't sure. Speaking of the ARMD-II do we have any images for them besides the one shot from the Trash Manga. Also was there any reason for the hull numbers of a few of the Guantanamo-Class carriers to still have ARMD in them? One of them I know for sure does the Maizuru. We also get the CVR hull designation in later models like those used by the Frontier Fleet though I wonder what the R means. Since earlier Guantanamo-Class carriers have designations have the regular carrier designation of CV. Also speaking of the Maizuru wasn't there a sort of a Maizuru-Class at some point or was that only an earlier class name used till Guantanamo-Class become official?

[Seto Kaiba]

Speaking of the ARMD-II do we have any images for them besides the one shot from the Trash Manga.

Ah, there's been some confusion.

The unidentified ship seen only in the Macross 7 Trash manga is not the ARMD II-class... that's a retrofit ARMD-class carrier (you can see the guided converging beam cannons on the dorsal hull).

"ARMD II-class" is the name that Variable Fighter Master File and a few other minor books use to refer to the ARMD's "movie" variant first seen in Macross: Do You Remember Love?.

Also was there any reason for the hull numbers of a few of the Guantanamo-Class carriers to still have ARMD in them?

The Guantanamo-class ships specifically identified in the Macross 7 production material kept the ARMD hull symbol, but I'm not aware of any official explanation for why those ships used ARMD/CV and later dropped the "ARMD" portion. (I suspect Kawamori and co. simply liked using the real-world CV more.)

As to why the original Guantanamo-class ships carried "ARMD" in addition to "CV"... that's easily explained. They were developed as a replacement for the ARMD and ARMD II space carriers, and are still referred to in official material as the "Advanced ARMD". It could be said that "ARMD" has graduated from being a particular class of vessel to being an operational role/type of vessel.

One of them I know for sure does the Maizuru. We also get the CVR hull designation in later models like those used by the Frontier Fleet though I wonder what the R means.

The hull classification symbol system used in Macross is based heavily upon the system that the United States Navy and Coast Guard use. If the usage is consistent, we would expect that the "R" means the carrier is part of the fleet's radar picket.

Since earlier Guantanamo-Class carriers have designations have the regular carrier designation of CV. Also speaking of the Maizuru wasn't there a sort of a Maizuru-Class at some point or was that only an earlier class name used till Guantanamo-Class become official?

Nah, the Maizuru (ARMD/CV-362) is simply the exemplar used in the Guantanamo-class line art... so various fan sites referred to it as the Maizuru-class before it was officially codified as the Guantanamo-class.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/ ... g~original

What is this ship? Any information about her?

An interesting design. Makes me wish more of the old Macross games were available...

[MrMarch]

Oh yeah, this reminds me I gotta get a hold of that art