Carrying Capacities in UC

[Gelgoog Jager]

I wanted to discuss the carrying capacities of several ships/vehicles from the UC, including those that go against the official info and those who don't ahve an official number.

Let's begin with the Komusai: how many MS can these carry by the MS Igloo standards?

While the original version seemed capable of carrying 2 Zakus, the version introduced in MS Igloo might potentially be able to load more. Check the link for an official model kit of the Musai (and Komusai) in question:

http://dalong.net/review/etc/gcl6/gcl6_p.htm

As you can see this version of Komusai is more spacious and while it seems to have latches for docking just two MS, it is spacious enough be able to fit 4 Zakus. An important detail is that the rear section has a hatch for moving the Zakus (it's the same one the Hildolfr used to eject from the Komusai in MS Igloo).

Of course the big question is: under what circumstances are the Komusai transporting MS? This is would be what determines how many it can carry at a time:

-If docked with a Musai that may engage in combat at any moment, 2 would be the ideal capacity in order to use the top hatch of the Komusai to deploy.

-I should note that the Komusai seems to have a rail that extends from the front section to the rear. Although not seen in the pictures linked, the msot likely scenario is that the rail aligns with one of the two MS beds in the front to move the MS to the back and then the rail moves horizontally to align the MS with the rear hatch. If the Komusai is already separated, perhaps even descending to Earth, the Komusai could bring 3 MS which it could launch from the rear hatch, with one already in the rear rail ready for deployment.

-The third option would be the extreme scenario, or perhaps transport only scenario. This would mean having 4 MS on board the Komusai, which obviously comes with logisticla drawbacks: the rear hatch can't be used at all, and the MS would most likely need to piloted to move them out of the Komusai. Still, if the Komusai is descending into friendly territory or if it's being used as sort of cargo container (IIRC, The Origin manga suggests that the Papua uses Komusais in such fashion), such option would allow to move twice the normal number of MS with a single ship.

As an extra note, if hypothetically speaking this type of Musai needed to carry as many Zakus as possible, it could carry 4 on the back and 4 under the belly, by having an MS also stored in the recovery hatch in front of the bridge.

In the end, I should point out that all these scenarios may only work for Zakus, and not for Doms and Gelgoogs or other wide MS. It might not work either for tall MS either, which means that even the skinny Gaza Cs units could not be carried in the same numbers as Zakus. Such scenario makes me wonder if perhaps the Geara Zulu was also desgined with such issue in mind, allowing a Musai Kai to carry as many as possible if needed.

And just to quickly bring a second ship into discussion: any ideas on the carrying capacities of a Dabude?

IIRC, the Universal Century Gundam Online had a stationed Dabude (MSG version) which you could enter into from a hatch in the rear. I seem to recall that they used one of those blue window like openings for it. The new MS Igloo version does seem to take this idea a step further and have a proper rear hatch in the rear. The catch is that in neither scenario the hatch might be able to fit a Magella Battle Tank, but smaller vehicles such as the Magella Eins (standard sized tank) and Weasel (armored car) might be able to go in and out just fine. Then there's also the helipad on the back of the bridge and the area in the rear where at least 2 Zakus were standing on top the Dabude in MS Igloo. Anyone want to take a guess at these?

Comments are welcomed!

[bilbros]

If I recall correctly, volumes 2 and 3 of The Origin manga shown a larger version of Komusai (named W-Com [W・コム]) which is said to be specifically designed to carry mobile suits, as if the standard one - at least in Yasuhiko's continuity - would lack such ability....
Again if I'm not wrong, the Ship & Aerospace Plane Encyclopedia 2105 makes a sort of related claim for MS Igloo, since it apparently says that the Musai featuring in that series can use different kinds of Komusai.
At any rate, MS IGLOO Complete Creation Data Collection on page 124 explicitely reports the maximum carrying capacity of the Komusai seen in episode 2 as three mobile suits. Considering the fact that it does embark the mighty YMT-05 Hilfdolfr (overall lenght: 35.30 m; overall width: 14.70 m; standard tank mode height: 8.60 m), this figure seems quite reasonable to me.
Unfortunately, other sources (e.g. Gundam Weapons MS IGLOO Special Edition) isagree with it, and have a normal load of 2 Zakus.

Concerning the Dabude (and also its EFF counterpart, i.e. the Big Tray) well, I maybe wrong, but I don't feel they're designed with carrying capacity in mind...

[Gelgoog Jager]

Again if I'm not wrong, the Ship & Aerospace Plane Encyclopedia 2105 makes a sort of related claim for MS Igloo, since it apparently says that the Musai featuring in that series can use different kinds of Komusai.

First time I hear about that. AFAIK there is not other version of the Komusai depicted in MS Igloo (although I haven't checked the manga).

At any rate, MS IGLOO Complete Creation Data Collection on page 124 explicitely reports the maximum carrying capacity of the Komusai seen in episode 2 as three mobile suits. Considering the fact that it does embark the mighty YMT-05 Hilfdolfr (overall lenght: 35.30 m; overall width: 14.70 m; standard tank mode height: 8.60 m), this figure seems quite reasonable to me.

This makes sense to me: as I mentioned, such configuration would allow a Koumsai to carry and be able to dispatch 3 MS through its rear hatch. The case of the 4 Zaku IIs I mentioned would be more akin to situations where ships are cramming more MS in their hangars than they are supposed to, and therefore are not considered as the maximum MS capacity in the official specs, even though they do can actually carry more.

By the way, do you have any info about the Komusai II that may indicate that it can carry more than 1 MS?

Concerning the Dabude (and also its EFF counterpart, i.e. the Big Tray) well, I maybe wrong, but I don't feel they're designed with carrying capacity in mind...

Found an image of the hatch I mentioned:

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ginchan_4649/36173769.html

As you can see in the lineart of the MS Igloo Dabude, there seems to be a proper hatch in that place:

http://www.universalcentury.it/images/m ... bude_3.jpg

You can alternatively look at the 3D model with quicktime at the official site for a better view:

http://www.msigloo2.net/data/

I agree on the Big Tray most likely not having any such hatches, specially since it's hovercraft system seems to completely surround the bottom of the ship. The same might be true for the Gallop's dome. However, the it might not be the case for the Heavy Fork:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3386/347 ... 1668_b.jpg

The rear and middle sections don't have hovercraft systems. Again, you could check the model at the official site for a better view.

And going back to the Gallop for a moment, is there any confirmation on whether the Gallop can carry larger MS such as the Dom types? And if they do, can they also carry 3 of them?

Also, I'm right to assume that there are no depictions or mentions whatsoever of Samson trucks with a wider platforms to carry Doms or Gelgoogs?

[bilbros]

AFAIK there is not other version of the Komusai depicted in MS Igloo (although I haven't checked the manga).

I've just checked more carefully my copy of the Ship & Aerospace Plane Encyclopedia 2105, as well as other sources (e.g. MS Igloo Graphic File) and they substantially say that different types of Komusai - but with unchanged basic capabilities - do exist in relation to different variants of Musai, so I think this just deals with the differencies between regular, 0080 and 0083 versions of Zeon's main space cruiser.
Speaking of which, some time ago Mark Simmons made a nice discussion on his site...
But to focus again on the MS Igloo version, this picture from MS Igloo Graphic File gives an idea of the Komusai dimensions compared to a Zaku II.

Concerning the Komusai II, although it might seem too small to house more than 1 MS, Gundam Mechanics VI claims that it can carry a maximum of 2 mobile suits.

As you can see in the lineart of the MS Igloo Dabude, there seems to be a proper hatch in that place

Ah, you're perfectly right, but to my knowledge only Universal Century Gundam Online shows that hatch in use. All other sources I've been able to found refer merely to the carrying capacity of the rear outer deck, which can accomodate small planes (e.g. the Commu) or even a pair of MSs (as seen in MS Igloo 2 and on the manga Iron Mustang).

I agree on the Big Tray most likely not having any such hatches, specially since it's hovercraft system seems to completely surround the bottom of the ship. The same might be true for the Gallop's dome. However, the it might not be the case for the Heavy Fork

Yes, I find that sort of rectangular port visible on the middle section quite promising as a possible hatch. Again, no explicit confirmation of this (in the text material I have, no mention of embarked units is ever made, and for instance the Heavy Fork class Norfolk so nicely depicted in Iron Mustang is never seen deploying anything!), but if we can accept an "indirect" evidence, the crew of the Nicosia from Advance of Z: The Traitor to Destiny (or was it Blue Wings of AEUG?) does include people described as MS pilots... which could possibly imply the presence of embarked mobile suits.

And going back to the Gallop for a moment, is there any confirmation on whether the Gallop can carry larger MS such as the Dom types?

At the end of the first chapter of the Blue Destiny manga we can see Schterzen's Gallop carrying at least one MS-09 and possibly also the MS-08TX[EXAM]. In chapter 3 we learn that Nimbus' forces include a squad of three Doms, so one can imagine that all of them were inside the Gallop.

Also, I'm right to assume that there are no depictions or mentions whatsoever of Samson trucks with a wider platforms to carry Doms or Gelgoogs?

Exactly. And quite surprisingly such an interesting idea has never been "explored" in the various manga I know... Even in Lost War Chronicles (where Ken Bederstadt pilots an MS-14G, and his squad uses a Samson as mobile command base) this is not shown.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Regarding the Komusai for the 0080 Musai (Musai Final Type), while the Gihren's Greed games do have come up with a unique designed for them, I seem to have read somehwere that they simply lack one to begin with. If these ships are indeed meant to be produced faster and at lower cost than the standard Musai, the removal of the Komusai does seem like a possible measure in such direction.

In a related note, I believe I have mentioned this on another thread, but in 08th MS Team we can see that durign Admiral Yuri's retreat from Odessa standing MS can be loaded into a Gaw's rear hangar. The interesting part is that we know that a Gaw can actually carry a Komusai on its rear hatch as depcited when Char's Komusai arrives on Earth, I think we can safely assume that Gaws can carry a lot more than just 3 MS.

Simply taking into consideration the dimensions of a Komusai, we can assume that they could make two lines of Zakus inside the Gaw, each at least 60m long (a Komusai's length), as discussed in this other thread:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... w=previous

Going by the Kmusai dimensions, if a Zaku were about 5 meters wide from back to front, then a Gaw could possibly cram as many as 24 Zakus (2 lines of 12 MS). Going back to the example from 08th MS team, the MS do seem to be standing with their backs to the side walls of Gaw's hangar, meanign that much like in the case of the Garuda, MS might be meant to be carried in such fashion instead. In such case, if we assume a Zaku is around 10 meters wide side-to-side, then we could have 6 Zakus on each wall of the hangar for a total of 12.

Then there's also the case of the number of Dopps a Gaw can actually carry, since Garma's ship seems to be carrying more than 8 more than once. In the thread linked above I had counted 12 Dopps, do perhaps the simplest solution is to think that each of the Gaw's Dopp hangars has the central catapult and two lines at each side for storing 3 Dopps each, for a total of 12.

Finally, I ran into this old thread:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15514

I got wondering if the Valkyrie class ship might have turned into the Jotunheim class, specially based on this image:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... fleet5.jpg

The odd ship at the top has a similar setup to that of the Jotunheim and we know the later is supposed to be a rather old ship, so it's possible that early on they were using them for carrying stuff other than MS, such as fighters. Any theories?

Edit: corrected the link for the thread about Mystery Ships

[toysdream]

I wouldn't overestimate - the Gaw specs in the Japanese publications may be insanely tiny, but even when we scale it up so that it's big enough to hold a Komusai, it can't necessarily hold an entire armada. In the animation, it normally seems to be escorted by six Dopps and carrying six more in its launch bays, so I suspect the squadrons are actually just rotated through its launch bays for maintenance and refueling.

In the earlier thread, it's also noted that some (not all) depictions of the Gaw suggest that the rear hangar is too low-ceilinged for a standing mobile suit. Certainly it never seems to drop mobile suits out the back hatch. And a 900-ton cargo of mobile suits seems rather extreme!

As for the Jotunheim resemblance, I'm not really seeing it here - both ships seem to have a square-ish cargo bay on each side, but the stuff in between and on top looks totally different.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

I wouldn't overestimate - the Gaw specs in the Japanese publications may be insanely tiny, but even when we scale it up so that it's big enough to hold a Komusai, it can't necessarily hold an entire armada. In the animation, it normally seems to be escorted by six Dopps and carrying six more in its launch bays, so I suspect the squadrons are actually just rotated through its launch bays for maintenance and refueling.

That certainly sounds reasonable. By the way, is there any official word on how the Dopps are supposed get back to those hangars upon returning to the Gaw?

In the earlier thread, it's also noted that some (not all) depictions of the Gaw suggest that the rear hangar is too low-ceilinged for a standing mobile suit. Certainly it never seems to drop mobile suits out the back hatch. And a 900-ton cargo of mobile suits seems rather extreme!

Actually we do see Zakus being deployed from the rear hatch of a Gaw, in a flashback in the first episode of MS Igloo 2.

As for the number of MS it may carry, I just realized I didn't consider the weight of the MS in this thread. Certainly 24 MS might be far too much (almost 2,000 mt) if we go by weight, but in the other thread you mentioned that the figure of 980mt might actually represent a Gaw's cargo capacity, for which 12 Zakus could still be doable:

MS-06J
70.3 mt x12 = 843.6mt

In the case of Doms we could assume that the larger size means that they take more space along the Gaw's inner walls, so let's say they are 12m wide side-to-side, therefore allowing 5 per side and 10 total:

MS-09B
81.8mt x10 = 818mt

As for the Jotunheim resemblance, I'm not really seeing it here - both ships seem to have a square-ish cargo bay on each side, but the stuff in between and on top looks totally different.

I realize it's not a 100% match, but it could simply be the interpretation of the Valkyrie class by the MS Igloo mecha designer. Let's remember that not only designs such as the Chibe and Dabude were heavily modified form their original versions (specially the later), but they even made their own version of the Magella Eins, that differs from the few images that existed of it:

http://userdisk.webry.biglobe.ne.jp/005 ... 831671.jpg

I suppose a similar case could be the Dodai GA, originally depicted simply as a recolor of the basic Dodai YS until MSV-R gave us a new design.

[bilbros]

Admitting that the ship in the Mobile Suit Gundam intro animation is actually intended to represent a Valkyrie class (an event which - if confirmed - would make my quite glad), I don't recall to have ever read references to it in the various MS Igloo material. Therefore, a possible relation with the Jotunheim would remain at best a nice conjecture, also considering that an explicit class designation for the Jotunheim and Muspelheim was never reported.

Passing to the Magella Eins, are you sure it's intended to be a redesign of the MSV-era M1 tank and not a variation type of it?
Incidentally, the image you linked it's actually already a variation, not the base model; if you're looking for a depiction of the "vanilla" M1, you can find it in the last chapter of the first Gundam Legacy volume (where both the normal and the variation type are present).

[Gelgoog Jager]

One quick note: I just realized that ina previous post I mistakenly put the same link twice isntead of linking to the thread discussing the Valkyrie class and other ships. I have corrected the link for those interested.

Admitting that the ship in the Mobile Suit Gundam intro animation is actually intended to represent a Valkyrie class (an event which - if confirmed - would make my quite glad), I don't recall to have ever read references to it in the various MS Igloo material. Therefore, a possible relation with the Jotunheim would remain at best a nice conjecture, also considering that an explicit class designation for the Jotunheim and Muspelheim was never reported.

I realize that there's no actual mention of either the ship from the screenshot being the Valkyrie nor whether the Jotunheim is supposed to be based on it. In both cases this is mere speculation based on design similarities and the fact that we know the mechanical designers do take some liberties modifying existing designs.

That being said, given the lack of information we can at least speculate about this. In the case of the Jotunheim, one of the reasons I considered it was precisely for the lack of an official designation for the class. Other details such as confirmation of there being more than one ship (Muspelheim) and the fact that it was around from the very beginning of the war made me suspect that it could fit the context.

Passing to the Magella Eins, are you sure it's intended to be a redesign of the MSV-era M1 tank and not a variation type of it?
Incidentally, the image you linked it's actually already a variation, not the base model; if you're looking for a depiction of the "vanilla" M1, you can find it in the last chapter of the first Gundam Legacy volume (where both the normal and the variation type are present).

For reference, I think I found the images you were talking about:

http://s51.photobucket.com/user/AmuroNT ... k.jpg.html
http://s51.photobucket.com/user/AmuroNT ... d.jpg.html

Unlike other Gundam OVAs, several MS Igloo designs have come to replace the original versions of some UC ships, a fact particularly noticeable in the case of the Musai, but more importantly in the case of the Musai Kai, which is nowdays depicted as an improved version of the MS Igloo design.

Adding up the large number of ships seen during MS Igloo, namely during the battle of Loum and the Battle of A Baoa Qu, it certainly seems that for all purposes the MS Igloo version was designed IRL as an update to the original Musai meant to replace it for future works.