RGM-79D and Specialization

[J-Lead]

So just how much is the RGM-79D actually intended for cold climates, anyway? Most of the descriptions of the thing seem to imply it was built as a terrestrial variant of the GM with enhanced mobility in response to the Dom rather than a Mobile Suit specialized for cold regions, and rather state that some units were modified for use in harsh weather and conditions, like it was an afterthought rather the original intention.

The OYW didn't exactly have a whole lot of cold weather fronts (possibly due to the combat hotspot locations and the aftermath of the colony drop) so it's kind of weird that the Federation had a GM built for stomping around in the snow, especially when it's cheaper to just modify the mainline RGM-79 for such purposes, just like half the GM variants out there...

[domino]

It probably is just a modification in-universe just like you mentioned.

Given 0080's origins though, the new model number was used to justify the different appearance.

[Seto Kaiba]

Yeah, it does seem a little strange... I'd have to redo the translations myself to conclude whether there's some confusing verbiage in the descriptions or not.

Just going from what I've found on a quick skim, it sounds like the RGM-79D GM Cold Regions type would be more correctly described as one of a family of enhanced-mobility RGM-79 variants which were optimized for particular extreme climates.

The RGM-79D's one specifically noted deployment zone was the base in Antarctica where they were developing the RX-78NT-1... but I'd imagine there would probably be call for them for use in other areas prone to especially cold winters like Russia and Scandinavia. From the diagrams about the Odessa operation in MS IGLOO 2, it looks like the Federation did have forces pushing Zeon troops out of Northeastern Europe...

[AmuroNT1]

I've actually wondered about the whole "made to fight the Dom" thing, since the only place I can remember actually seeing that claim made was in the Blue Destiny manga.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

I've actually wondered about the whole "made to fight the Dom" thing, since the only place I can remember actually seeing that claim made was in the Blue Destiny manga.

Yeah, I think I asked about that somewhere, how exactly it was made to fight the Dom given, unlike something like the Armored GM, it doesn't have any sort of hovering capabilities, and it would use up fuel and such to greatly enhance the speed of boosting while jumping and such (I doubt it could run THAT quickly, lol).

[Gelgoog Jager]

Regarding the RGM-79D, my guess is that much like other 0080 units, its background and role were changed in the last minute to represent them being variants of a MS rather than simply being the 0080 version of an existing MS.

For example, the MS-06FZ was suppsoed to be simply 0080's interpretation of the MS-06F, but got changed into an improved Zaku II model, which even has conflicting background info such as it having low operational time due to not having increased propellant capacity to compensate for its greater thrust, despite being a machine suppsoed to be assigned to rookies. This last part is important given claims that rookie pilots tended to waste propellant, making them poor at piloting Zakus, and in turn making the Rick Dom a better machine for them due its higher propellant capacity and operational time.

Another machine that got its background drastically changed was the MSM-03C Hygogg, or as is it was originally supposed to be known as, the MSM-05/B Gock. Along with the Kampfer this MS was supposed to be an entirely new MS, but when the changes to the other MS began to take palce, this machine also got retconned into a missing link between the Gogg and the Capule. Ironically MSV-R shows that a proper Gogg successor did exist in the form of the MSM-06 Jurick, whcih ahs a lot more in common with the Gogg than the Hygogg/Gock.

Back to the RGM-79D, perhaps we should look at other examples of cold weather MS:

1- MS-06 (unknown model number) Zaku II Cold Climate Type (from Gihren's Greed), it's the very first Zaku in the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0TJd9zctwQ

While in several instances this unit has simply been depicted as a white-colored Zaku II, the unit in the video clearly is using some sort of thermal clothing for some of its armor, joints and even external cables.

2- MS-09B (no special model number given) Dom Cold Climate Type (from MSV-R):

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/MS-09_Dom_ ... imate_Type

Externally this machine doesn't seem much different from a standard MS-09B, except for its backpack, some minor armor openings on the "belt" and knee armor, and the scattering beam gun which has been sealed (and possibly removed) with armor on top of where it is located. According to Mark, the backpack is absed on the Prototype Dom (YMS-09/MS-09A) and it has been modfied to include snowblowers for camouflage purposes (I suspect the armor openings I mentioned might serve the same purpose):

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... io#p266578

Other than that, it doesn't seem to have much more protection like the above mentioned Zaku. One fan theory I once read on a fan-made RPG was that since the Dom uses its thermo-nuclear hoverjets to move around, these generate sufficient heat to keep the rest of the MS warm, thus not requiring additional gear to protect it from the cold.

3- RMS-007G Juracg Cold climate Type (from Gundam X):

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/RMS-007G_J ... imate_Type

Much like the Cold Climate Zaku, this unit uses some sort of thermal protective clothing over some sections of its armor and joints. Additionally, it has a visor on top of its mono-eye sensors and can use a jet-snowboard for achieving high mobility in snowy terrain, much like the MS-06D from ZZ also used jet-skis to achieve Dom like mobility in the desert.

Anyway, these examples do point towards the RGM-79D not really being designed for cold climate regions as its name implies. Being a higher-spec GM seems to be the overall better description for it, with the 4 thrusters configuration being also used by the somehwat better GM Kai and GM II. At most it might have some additional cold protection on its joints, and perhaps its larger number of thrusters was considered and advantage (over the standard GM) in order to allow the MS to propel itself around rather than walking on snowy terrain.

Perhaps we could consider it similar to the MS-06JC, which is supposed to be a MS-06J further tuned for use in tropical climates, given characteristics such as being water-proofed and most likely also having additional features to deal with hot climates, in its particular case, jungles. Yet, overall this machine is supposed to be not much different from a vanilla MS-06J, unlike units such as the MS-06D.

As for the RGM-79[GRS]/RGM-79FD Armored GM, this MS seems to have been deployed at the very end of the war, with its supposed first sighting being as late as January 1st 0080 (Zeonic Front). It's probably based on the RX-78-6 Murdock Gundam, which itself hadn't been completed by the time of the Battle of Jaburo, during which it lacked its hovering system (which it first used later during the Battle at California Base). Given this situation, its likely that development on the RGM-79FD didn't begin until after that event, perhaps even developed at the recaptured California Base where the heavily damaged Murdock Gundam was most likely taken to after its defeat.

[J-Lead]

Yeah, I think I asked about that somewhere, how exactly it was made to fight the Dom given, unlike something like the Armored GM, it doesn't have any sort of hovering capabilities, and it would use up fuel and such to greatly enhance the speed of boosting while jumping and such (I doubt it could run THAT quickly, lol).

I actually started a GM thread on /m/ a little while ago that developed into an interesting debate on the RGM-79FD and whether or not hovering is something exclusive to the Mudrock and Armored GM, as Zeonic Front would suggest. Someone brought up a good point that we actually see the Zaku II Kai hover rather effectively just by utilizing it's standard thrusters in the legs, and while it's considered a higher performance Zaku by a pretty considerable margin there's no reason to assume that other higher performing MS with leg thrusters, like the GM Sniper II or GM Striker (which coincidentally both have a similar thruster layout to the RGM-79FD, and the GM Striker even has an identical backpack if recent depictions of it are to be believed + similar air intakes in the legs,) can't also pull it off. As for why they don't often hover, it's probably because hovering is less efficient that simply jumping a distance for anything that isn't a Dom, and jumping also has the added benefit of giving you an aerial advantage while also making you harder to hit for MS with standard weapons.

So in that regard, and I'm paraphrasing from the discussion itself here, it might be better to assume that while Mudrock and the Armored GM could hover, that they aren't special snowflakes in that department when it comes to Feddie MS, and are rather notable for being able to hover excessively well while also being heavily armored and armed to the teeth.

Besides, if you want to use specs as a reference, technically the RGM-79D has more thruster acceleration than the MS-09B, so maybe it can actually keep up, albeit through more conventional means.

As for the RGM-79[GRS]/RGM-79FD Armored GM, this MS seems to have been deployed at the very end of the war, with its supposed first sighting being as late as January 1st 0080 (Zeonic Front). It's probably based on the RX-78-6 Murdock Gundam, which itself hadn't been completed by the time of the Battle of Jaburo, during which it lacked its hovering system (which it first used later during the Battle at California Base). Given this situation, its likely that development on the RGM-79FD didn't begin until after that event, perhaps even developed at the recaptured California Base where the heavily damaged Murdock Gundam was most likely taken to after its defeat.

With the introduction of the 100% official GM Striker, I'm starting to think that the Armored GM might be, retroactively speaking, more related to it than the Mudrock. They have a near identical thruster layout, right down to the air intakes in the legs, and more recent depictions of it even show it using a similar shield. The most recent GM Master archive actually shows both stripped of the slabs of armor, and when it comes down to it, The Armored GM just looks like a standard RGM-79 with minor modifications, and the GM Striker just looks like the GM Kai with thrusters in the legs, both sporting the same backpack, which in turn looks to be based on the one used by the Desert GM. The notion that the stripped down version of the Armored GM we see in the Master Archive actually doesn't have the leg thrusters might imply that the leg thrusters used on the RGM-79FD might actually be a retrofit based on the RGM-79FP's legs in an attempt to give it similar performance. Even their model numbers are only one letter off these days, whereas before, the Armored GM had the model number RGM-79(GRS), which might mean that the powers that be might be retroactively trying to draw parallels between them.

We see the RGM-79FP in December of 0079, so if the Armored GM indeed came after it and only saw combat in January of 0080, then it might very well be an attempt to do for the standard RGM-79/RGM-79F what the GM Striker did for the RGM-79C, only sans the focus on melee combat, or it might be the other way around, with the RGM-79FP meant to use the added mobility for closing the distance with the enemy.

[Gelgoog Jager]

First, about the MS-09B VS RGM-79D thrust: Mark's theory is that the actual thrust of the Dom must be around 94,800 kg, which is much higher than the RGM-79D's 67,480 kg (including sole thrusters like the standard GM's):

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=15775

As far as I can tell, the RGM-79FD seems to basically be a RGM-79F Desert GM (previously it shared the RGM-79SP model number with the GM Sniper II) with different legs, which indeed resemble those of the RGM-79FP, but have significantly larger air intakes:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/RGM-79F_Desert_GM
http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/RGM-79FD_Armored_GM

Given this situation, and the lack of evidence that the RGM-79FP may actually be able hover, I'm more inclined to think that the RGM-79FP leg's are rather meant to allow it to perform jet powered jumps, much like the Gouf. Adding up the capacity to perform jet powered jumps, increased armor and melee focus certainly makes the GM Striker look like the EF's answer to the Gouf in every sense.

A real world explanation also seems to further point in this direction: the Harmony of Gundam MSV series, which introduced the RGM-79FP, seemed largely aimed at creating MS that would balance the types of MS among both factions in videogames:

-The EF lacked melee MS, therefore they got a MS that pretty much fits the same description of the Gouf.
-Zeon lacked sniper type MS and got basically a Zaku I with the same configuration as the RGM-79[G] Sniper (large beam sniper rifle + large backpack to use said rifle).
-The EF lacked official amphibious units, so the RAG-79 became an official design.
-Two varaints of the GP-02A, one for the EF and one for Zeon, which did not carry nukes and could be used in games were also created.

Furthermore, the background of the RGM-79FD, namely the time of its deployment, may even be a nod at Zeon technology from the recaptured California Base being used to build them. More specifically, I think data from the Gouf Flight project might have been used, since the lack sole hover jets means that most of the thrust most have come from the calf thrusters. After all, the hover system of the RGM-79FD doesn't really resemble that of the Mudrock Gundam:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/RX-78-6_Mudrock_Gundam

[J-Lead]

Given this situation, and the lack of evidence that the RGM-79FP may actually be able hover, I'm more inclined to think that the RGM-79FP leg's are rather meant to allow it to perform jet powered jumps, much like the Gouf. Adding up the capacity to perform jet powered jumps, increased armor and melee focus certainly makes the GM Striker look like the EF's answer to the Gouf in every sense.

While it may be true that we don't have any visual evidence that the GM Striker can hover, the only examples we have of it doing anything come from video games, which aren't typically a good measure of a suit's performance, especially considering Zeonic Front just wanted an excuse to re-use the Dom's hovering animation for a few Feddie MS, and a heavily stylized manga. Besides, Zaku II Kai technically doesn't have any indication in any profile that it's thrusters are meant for hovering, but it pulls it off just fine without any air intakes whatsoever, and the Alex, a suit that can fly circles around the Zaku II Kai, jumps towards it, runs a few steps, then jumps again, which might mean that hovering might have more to do with things like thruster placement, accelerating to the desired speed (might take a bit), the fuel consumption involved, and just how much the pilot is willing to part with to use the technique rather than whether or not the thrusters are actually built specifically for hovering. The only thing I can think of that might get in the way of the GM Striker hovering might be the weight, but the Zaku II Kai pulls it off while actually weighing more and having 15,500kg less overall thruster output. A GM Striker is a more extreme example due to it's the extra weight afforded by the armor; lighter MS like the GM Sniper II that have even more thruster output than both should be golden, assuming the pilot actually wants to hover...

Given that the Armored GM weighs a few tons less than the GM Sniper II and likely has more overall output thanks to the air intakes in the calf thrusters, it's probably just more efficient at hovering in comparison to other Federation MS at the time, but isn't unique in it's ability to actually hover in general.

[Gelgoog Jager]

As some of you may know, the MS-06FZ has been one of my biggest headaches over the past few years, mainly because I have a hard time figuring out where it fits.

At this time I'm more willing to embrace the theory that it was developed to fight in colonies, the moon and asteroid bases, basically as part of the final line of defense, which could more or less justify it's high thrust combined with its low propellant capacity.

Anyway, an important point of such role is that such units would essentially need to operate like ground units when close to the surface. Looking at other UMP units, we know there's a green colony use Rick Dom II and the Gelgoog Jager probably has at least the same hovering capabilities of the vintage units seen on ZZ.

But what about the MS-06FZ? Well, we know that the UMP units, specially the MS-06FZ, MS-09R2 and MS-14JG are supposed to share components to ease up logistics. Therefore, I don't think it would it would be far fetched to consider that this extends to some of the thrusters that allow the Rick Dom II and Gelgoogs to hover, after all, the specs of the MS-06FZ only list 1 thruster per leg of the Zaku Kai, while upon inspection the unit has one sole thruster and 2 calf thrusters per leg, leaving the thrust for 4 thrusters unaccounted for.

[J-Lead]

Honestly, I would just put the MS-06FZ somewhere between the RGM-79D and RGM-79G in terms of overall performance. It may very well be specialized for in-colony use, like he GM Quel, but also like the GM Quel, they seem to function just fine anywhere else, like on Earth in Unicorn.

It might be easier to reconcile the differences between the Dom and other MS shown to hover by the fact that all the work involved in hovering for the Doms are handled by the thermonuclear jet engines in the feet themselves, which free up it's other thrusters for maneuvering, meaning that other mobile suits have to rely on the thrusters laden throughout the suit to hover. This would mean that while the Dom would be better at turns and strafing, other MS not optimized for the task can only really hover while moving forward, and turns are considerably harder to pull off. After all, we only see the Zaku II Kai hover while on a flat plane, and doing so in a city environment might not be a prudent idea given the obstacles and the need to decelerate. The Mudrock compensates for this by having Alex-style thrusters with the ability to swivel forward and backward.

It might be worth mentioning that the Zaku II Kai also has thrusters pointing towards the side of the MS in the calves, which might compensate for the lack of thrusters in the feet by giving it marginally better balance than other suits, preventing it from toppling over.

MS from the Gryps Conflict and onward tend to be mostly lighter and, according to Mark, probably carry more propellant to make up for the weight differences, considerably lessening the overall workload for the thrusters when it comes to hovering, while also sporting more maneuvering thrusters with higher output throughout the suit, meaning they can maneuver more effectively while hovering with far less worry as to how much propellant they are using to do so. The Linear seat probably doesn't hurt when it comes to pilot comfort while doing this.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

And then you have older MS like the H-4 Gouf Flight Type being used as a hovering MS given it would have a much stronger thrust capability as, of course, it was meant to maintain flight (as limited as it was). Given the way the feet look, I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to change them around for thermonuclear thrusters and allow it to mimic the Dom's hovering abilities.

With ZZ, the Gelgoog also seemed to only hover around in straight lines as it moved from hiding spot to hiding spot, but we never see it actually maneuver otherwise. And, as you point out similarly with the Zaku II Kai, it's in the desert which is mostly smoother terrain and very few obstacles besides those rocks.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I'm having a hard time finding good footage of the RGM-79FD in action. All I have found is a video in which it's hovering in straight line, before stopping and opening fire:

https://youtu.be/opDx9-5PrVg?t=46

IIRC, one of the disadvantages of the RGM-79(GRS) over the Dom in Zeonic Front was that the former couldn't fire heavy weapons while moving: it had to come to a full stop before opening fire. In the game there were similar cases, such as Zakus not being able to fire Giant bazookas while walking around, also requiring to come to a full halt before firing. However the Dom could fire even the Raketen Bazooka while hovering. IIRC the Murdock didn't had such problem since it was equipped with a beam rifle.

Anyway, my main concern is confirming if the RGM-79(GRS) could actually maneuver while hovering, like the Mudrock, or if it was limited to moving in stratight line. I can't help but think that it had one such downside and that at least in that game its hovering capabilities weren't as good as the Dom's or the Murdock's.

Anyway, I also think we need to better define the fine line between actual hovering and simply thrusting/boosting. For example, in the case of the RGM-79FD in the video, we can see how its posture doesn't really change much at all while hovering and when coming to a full stop (unlike a thrusting/boosting MS which would normally end up such movement by "landing").

[J-Lead]

IIRC, one of the disadvantages of the RGM-79(GRS) over the Dom in Zeonic Front was that the former couldn't fire heavy weapons while moving: it had to come to a full stop before opening fire.

Mudrock actually had a similar problem with it's 300mm cannons. Both MS had to come to a complete stop to use any weapon with above-average recoil, which might have something to do with the Dom's weight and how bottom heavy it is compared to it's alleged Federation equivalents. On top of that, both MS were noticably slower than even the basic MS-09B in that game, which lends to the notion that they aren't quite as good at hovering as the Dom, like most profile descriptions would have you believe.

I also find it strange that the GM Striker has considerably more armor and weight than the Armored GM, and the Armored GM is more suited to high speed assault and hit-and-run tactics. Both might actually be more appropriately named if they switched monikers, but I guess that's a side effect of one coming after the other.

[Gelgoog Jager]

The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to hink that neither the Murdock nor the Armored GM can actually hover, at least not much better than any other MS simply boosting.

For instance, games like Gundam Battle Operation don't depict the Murdock Gundam hovering, but rather walking like any other unit, with its "hovering system" simply being used as thrusters while boosting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaf28wYvmr4

This contradicts earlier games which did gave the Murdock the same hovering effect as a Dom.

Also, IIRC the Armored GM stopped hovering completely when coming to a full stop, unlike a Dom type MS. Unfortunately I can't confirm this without finding a good video or without playing Zeonic Front again, for which I no longer have my old file (I'm tempted to do this at this point), but if true, it would mean that the Armored GM's hovering system is only activated while actually moving, making it more of a specialized boosting system than a proper hovering system.

[J-Lead]

I think they can most definitely hover to a degree, but Mudrock and Armored GM seem a lot closer in nature to other high performance OYW MS like the Gundam Alex or Kampfer (which probably hover just as well, if not better,) rather than MS specifically built to mimic the Dom.

The Armored GM might benefit from the posture taken when hovering like a Dom, thanks to the air intakes in the legs, and the Mudrock's profile actually specifically mentions hover thrusters, but other than that, both probably behave just like any other high performance MS in most combat scenarios, performing thruster-assisted jumps while only hovering in situations where it's actually beneficial.

On that note, the Dom in Zeonic Front DID stop hovering when you stopped moving in Zeonic Front, but they could go considerably faster than the Mudrock and Armored GM while also being able to fire heavy weapons, like the various bazookas, during movement without so much as slowing down.

It's also worth noting that in Zeonic Front, the Dom makes a specific sound when it stops, akin to a jet engine deactivating and cooling off, while the Mudrock/Armored GM makes the same sound any Federation mobile suit makes when it walks or lands, which means that the MS was actually airborne (if you look closely, the Mudrock and Armored GM are actually about two or three meters off the ground when they hover) so it's likely that the "hovering" Mudrock and the Armored GM perform is more akin to enhanced boosting than anything resembling what the Dom does.