Newtypes, Cyber-Newtypes, and the human brain

[Seto Kaiba]

So... I have a random question I'm hoping someone can help me with.

We know, in the Universal Century, that Newtypes occur naturally and can be created artificially... but has anything actually been said about the mechanism by which one becomes a Newtype, either artificially or naturally?

I mean... there HAS to be something physiological for them to be able to manufacture an artificial newtype in a lab using a normal person. Is anything said about how a newtype is different from a baseline human? Are they born with the expanded awareness and just not become aware of it on their own, or is it a change that occurs during stress?

[Mimeblade]

I don't think it's anything officially quantifiable like midi-chlorians are in Star Wars. That's my take.

The mere fact they were able to make an NT-D system pretty much proves they have somehow been able to integrate Psychocommu tech in to machines, and somehow insert that tech in to humans, hence the "cyber" part.

As for training, well, it has to do with adaptability in a Space environment at the least.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

IIRC, the most we got was very vague and general speculations in Zeta Gundam about things like drugs and hypnosis being involved (though that might've only been in terms of Rosamia and how she believed Kamille was her brother and such), but it seems Neo Zeon has managed to move such projects forward a bit given their creation of some much more stable Cyber-Newtypes (at least compared to how bipolar and manic previous ones, like Four and Rosamia from the Titans, or earlier ZZ ones like Chara Soon, could be at times) like Pie in ZZ and Gyunei in CCA.

It's also heavily implied that the more powerful the Cyber-Newtype is made, the worse such emotional side effects become.

I believe Mobile Suit Gundam itself had Amuro, at the end and facing Char with swords, saying how, physically, a Newtype is no different than a regular human and that that's why Char was challenging him in a sword fight, hoping it would give him an advantage over Amuro due to his greater physicality at the time and Amuro's Newtype power wouldn't be such a wild card, so it's really just on a more mental level that Newtypes are on a higher level than normal humans.

[Mimeblade]

Yeah, it's speculated that Banagher Links was a Cyber Newtype due to how Vist conditioned him... but he had no mental instability from all that, contradicting what Ple Twelve (Marida Cruz) underwent...

And then there's the Cyber Newtypes of After War: Gundam X that actually have to suffer with periodic bouts of migranes for the rest of their lives.

So you might say that there's different "schools of thought" on how one creates a Newtype... one way was highly abusive, the other more natural I suppose.

Again, the only thing we have to go on is how Amuro lived his life as a Gundam Pilot in dire situations to become a Newtype.

The only other "similar" example was the experiences Setsuna F. Seiei went through to become an Innovator. So, human suffering and stressful combat situations are probably a factor to that "adaptation".

[MythSearcher]

Simply put, they undergo an awakening process through life threatening battle after battle, or gets "promoted" by other NTs.
As long as you have the potential, these are the ways you can awaken naturally.

For cyber NTs, you get controlled diet, training in hell(or heaven if you think of it as video gaming like Banagher as a kid) and medication. Other than using unnatural methods(well, facing life threathening battles are not really that natural as well), cyber NTs also need the potential, many failed to turn into
NT.(genes are important, look at Ple, who is an NT herself and her clones are all cyber NTs)
The Psychological effects are usually from the brain washing that conditioned the cyber NT to follow orders, but it gets them unstable. Some naturally occured NTs are also unstable if facing situations that can be traumatic to normal humans, and cyber NTs usually go through harsh trainings that are quite traumatic.

Iron Mask is a cyber NT and he is pretty stable.(the technology got much better and if you have money you can get the enhancement.

[toysdream]

There's some discussion of the creation of Cyber-Newtypes in Tomino's Zeta Gundam novels. Some excerpts:

Volume 2, Part 10: However, the research conducted by the Newtype research institutes was devoted purely to systematizing human abilities as tools. They were not studying the development of Newtype abilities in the sense that Amuro originally spoke of them. The only subject of their research was a system for enhancing human reflexes through the use of biotechnological techniques such as drugs, hypnosis, and autosuggestion, then electrically extracting the nerve signals and using these reactions to operate machines. They were continuing only the worst aspects of the former Principality of Zeon's Flanagan Agency.

Volume 3, Part 2: Cyber-Newtypes were people whose fighting capabilities had been enhanced through means such as drugs, hypnotherapy, and organ transplantation. But these were essentially methods of strengthening the mind, rather than modifying human biology.

Basically, drugs were administered to relax the mind and, by slowing down speed perceptions, make actual movements feel slower and eliminate sensations of fear. Drugs were also administered to increase the body's reaction speed, and mentally the subject was placed under hypnotic control.

Of course, the original Cyber-Newtypes plan involved the use of biotechnology for biological modification, but this fact was unknown to the average soldier.

Volume 3, Part 6: Four had no memories of anything but training to become a Newtype at the Murasame research institute. In the time she was aware of, she had undergone mechanical reaction training, anti-G training in a cold room with a machine that resembled an amusement park ride, and "super-running" training to augment her memory.

Within this training framework, Four had certainly become a human with sharpened reflexes. But it didn't include the basics of ordinary human behavior and conversation. She had lived a life in which sensors were always attached to her body, in which she was subjected to sleep learning even while she was asleep, and in which she was sometimes forcibly awoken from a sound sleep for tests to check that she was learning. All this was intended to turn her into a machine.

It's also perhaps useful to note that the Japanese term 強化人間 doesn't mention "Newtypes" at all - it's more like "enhanced human." Apparently this term was meant to sound a bit cheesy and comic-booky, kind of like 人造人間キカイダー ("artificial human Kikaider"), so probably there's an implied element of propaganda in there.

Later in the Zeta novels, when the AEUG are examining Rosamia, the Argama's resident doctor speculates that you could take the concept even further by selecting for superior genes at the point of conception. So it's possible that this was the case with the Ple clones.

-- Mark

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

"They were continuing only the worst aspects of the former Principality of Zeon's Flanagan Agency."

So could that mean that Lalah and others could technically be Cyber-Newtypes as well? (Or at least somewhat.)

[toysdream]

I think that's been implied here and there, but in this case, it may just mean that they had the same agenda of using humans as tools. The later discussion of building Cyber-Newtypes from the ground up, though - combined with the exceedingly unclear origins of the Ple clones - might suggest that Zeon was pursuing this kind of research too.

-- Mark

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

It certainly wouldn't be surprising considering, for their purposes, it's much faster than simply waiting and hoping one person out of who-knows-how-many-people to awaken and develop naturally.

[toysdream]

The main issue is the timing. If Ple is ten years old in ZZ, she'd have been born around U.C. 0078, supposedly before Newtype research began in earnest. Since there's no evidence that U.C. technology can artificially age people, one assumes that all the Ples were created in a single batch at the same time. But by whom, and for what reason?

In Volume 4, Part 17, of Tomino's Zeta novels, there's this conversation between Kamille and Doctor Hasan, who's been examining Rosamia...

"Doctor are creatures that deal in cause and effect. When they can experiment on a living human, considerations like ethics tend to disappear."

Hasan was speaking plainly.

"Advances in psychiatry and biotechnology long ago eliminated things like human dignity. Natural death and natural birth still give us the feeing that life is sacred and instill a sense of awe, but no doctor can imagine what kind of baby might be born if you tampered with it at the stage of sperm and egg. And even if they imagined, they couldn't do anything about it."

"So are you saying that Rosammy was conceived, from artificial insemination onward, in order to create a Newtype?"

"It's possible... In the course of preparation, if you wanted only the superior heredity to remain at the stage when life begins, you could assemble genes in an earlier stage by picking up only the superior ones. That's an experiment that any biotechnologist would like to try."

"You're joking."

"No, I'm serious. The only reason I never had a chance to try it was because I didn't have the nerve. But it will take some time to investigate whether or not any subsequent manipulation was performed at the genetic level."

So Hasan considers it at least possible that Rosamia might have been deliberately created to become an artificial Newtype. That would push back the start of Newtype research well before the war. If memory serves, she has a tiny cameo in the Blue Destiny novels that might provide a little bit of an unofficial hint at her background...

-- Mark

[Mimeblade]

I've been playing Shin Gundam Musou and they refer to certain individuals (especially under Blue Cosmos from Gundam Seed) as "Human Batteries" or Enhanced Men, so it's a similar concept.

But like I said, I think there's different schools of thought on the recipe for newtypes... Amuro seemed to know of a way, and it seems Banagher didn't have much in the way of a bad past other than not spending time with his father.

lol, Videogames... if only it were that simple.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

It wouldn't be surprising if Newtype research began even before the 0070s given other bug groups involved in things like the Buch Concern, Vist Foundation, and the Jupiter Empire, perhaps even before Zeon Zum Deikun began his preachings.

[toysdream]

I think the term they use in Gundam Seed is "Biological CPU" - later revised to "Extended" in Seed Destiny. "Human Battery" sounds like some kind of weird translation hiccup. :-\

As for Gundam Unicorn, it's not really clear how or why Banagher became a Newtype - much less Riddhe, who suddenly turns out to be a Newtype in the final episode. On the whole, considering how much it talks about Newtypes, Unicorn doesn't seem to shed much light on the subject.

-- Mark

[JEFFPIATT]

oddly the last episode of 08th ms team seems to feature an group of children that crashed in an komusui from the institute that behave like cyber newtypes having the same memory loss and experiment flashbacks. so zeon was working on it and the Titans and axis both completed the work. I would think that post war the EF would have run an "operation paperclip" like op and transferred zeons remaining science staff to there own labs.

[MythSearcher]

The main issue is the timing. If Ple is ten years old in ZZ, she'd have been born around U.C. 0078, supposedly before Newtype research began in earnest. Since there's no evidence that U.C. technology can artificially age people, one assumes that all the Ples were created in a single batch at the same time. But by whom, and for what reason?

Her official(?) birthday is UC0077.03.08.

If we believe what Gundam Officials said, Zeon did not start its development of NTs until the end of Battle of Loum, which had a much lower death rate than simulation suggested, and that led to NT research.

And about aging, there is evidence of the contrary, Ver.1.5 Encyclopaedia actually stated clone pilots needed the same time for the pilots to mentally and physically mature as natural humans. They used clones for NTs because for using Psychommu controls they can (kinda) ignore the physical immaturity part. So no artificial aging for UC.

Ple naturally became an NT, so she might not be of the same batch, other ple clones, on the other hand, are obviously clone of her.

Her birth and cloning has a lot of strange sequencing, likely just a bug in the mix.
Would make much more sense in UC has artificial aging technology.
Glemy Toto, who is in charged of the project, was born in 0070, and was only at most 7 at the time.
Axis should not be that much of a crazy military place before OYW to begin with, it seems like they are under a more normal military doctrine of Dozle, doesn't seem to favour cloning soldiers and using inhumane methods to create super soldiers(no combat NT concept as of the time), Maharaja Karn(Haman's father, commander of Axis at the time) seems to be a nice person that didn't even want to go into war in most if not all depictions of him. Really hard to accept that he has some sinister order cloning soldiers(which happens to be NTs in a more or less lucky way) for war.

On the other hand ZZ's data collection even stated that the Ple series was created by Glemy Toto as designer babies specifically having NT abilities in mind, which would be impossible unless there is a way to artificially age them.(I guess I have to admit this book is a little bit less official than Ver. 1.5) However, this is a rather more reasonable explanation than somehow Axis already are cloning soldiers before OYW.

[toysdream]

I think the claim that Zeon began its Newtype research based on pilot data from the start of the war originally came from Gundam Century. Technically, since this has never been addressed in the animation, it's possible that it may not be true.

As for Ple's birth date, I believe the birthdates of the ZZ characters were originally listed with month and day only; their ages in years were listed separately. So doing the math to figure out their actual date of birth requires making assumptions about when you're counting from. If Ple were born on March 8, U.C. 0077, then she'd actually be 11 by the time she appears in Gundam ZZ; the U.C. 0077 date only makes sense if you want her to be ten years old at the moment the show begins.

They do say that she was born at Axis, don't they? This definitely suggests that some kind of Newtype research was going on there before the war, unless we assume that Zeon also has magic growth-acceleration technology. That's not impossible, but the situation is so mysterious and unclear that all we can do is speculate.

I don't think we need to worry too much about how Glemy figures into this, though. According to the ZZ novels, it wasn't until Glemy was relatively old that Dr. Maganny approached him and revealed the secrets of his own birth and the existence of the Ple series. In that kind of scenario, we don't have a 7-year-old Glemy running a clone Newtype program.

And as for Maharaja Karn: As discussed in this thread, up until "Char's Deleted Affair," every published reference to him said that he led the Zeon remnants to Axis after the war. In that case, who knows who'd be running Axis beforehand?

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

I think the claim that Zeon began its Newtype research based on pilot data from the start of the war originally came from Gundam Century. Technically, since this has never been addressed in the animation, it's possible that it may not be true.

As for Ple's birth date, I believe the birthdates of the ZZ characters were originally listed with month and day only; their ages in years were listed separately. So doing the math to figure out their actual date of birth requires making assumptions about when you're counting from. If Ple were born on March 8, U.C. 0077, then she'd actually be 11 by the time she appears in Gundam ZZ; the U.C. 0077 date only makes sense if you want her to be ten years old at the moment the show begins.

They do say that she was born at Axis, don't they? This definitely suggests that some kind of Newtype research was going on there before the war, unless we assume that Zeon also has magic growth-acceleration technology. That's not impossible, but the situation is so mysterious and unclear that all we can do is speculate.

I don't think we need to worry too much about how Glemy figures into this, though. According to the ZZ novels, it wasn't until Glemy was relatively old that Dr. Maganny approached him and revealed the secrets of his own birth and the existence of the Ple series. In that kind of scenario, we don't have a 7-year-old Glemy running a clone Newtype program.

And as for Maharaja Karn: As discussed in this thread, up until "Char's Deleted Affair," every published reference to him said that he led the Zeon remnants to Axis after the war. In that case, who knows who'd be running Axis beforehand?

-- Mark

Gundam Officials had the same claim of NT research begun only after the war started, so that seems to be what official sources want it to be for now.
In show they also seem to only have NT use MA quite late, and only acquired NT pilots within the war, so this is more possible than them having NT research before the war.

Ple being 10 years old don't really change things by a lot, her birth couldn't really be after the war, so she is not likely to be born of NT research.
Giving some speculation, Ple can be 11 years old, but she was put on cold sleep for a year or so,(therefore claiming her to be 10 years old still makes sense) while Ple 2 onwards was only cloned when Ple was around 1 year old would make some sense, since it was already in OYW, and they already know about NT and done some research on it. In this case, Ple just happens to be NT, but not by gene selection. Given Tomino in an interview about ZZ, he claimed that all children are NTs...

I guess if Axis was ordered to do NT research, even if Maharaja was in charge at the time, he couldn't stop it.
Anyway, after CDA, it seems like Maharaja Khan was in charge even before OYW, given previous alterations usually stay in effect and Bandai/Sunrise wouldn't want to introduce yet another minor character to fill the commander space for Axis during OYW...

[Seto Kaiba]

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

Here is my theory, based on what I've read and found here and elsewhere.

My best guess as to what exactly separates a "Newtype" from a baseline human is that the factors involved are predominantly nurture rather than nature. Your average Newtype's superior reflexes and improved spatial awareness may be factors some people have a moderate predisposition to... but they're traits that find more expression in those who grow up in conditions where assumptions that humans evolved with (gravity, a constant definition of "up") are highly variable or absent.

On the "newtype flashes" front, I'm inclined to suspect that there are some ESPer shenanigans in play... that, as part of developing in an environment where gravity is simulated, a human brain's response was to develop increased sensitivity to certain frequencies of brainwave emitted during periods of extreme physical or psychological stress (e.g. combat).

That would explain how it's possible to "manufacture" newtypes in a laboratory environment. It wouldn't be too hard to boost reflexes and spatial awareness using training and pharmaceuticals under lab conditions. The tricky bit is the brainwaves. My guess is Cyber-Newtypes have been subjected to invasive brain surgery to install mechanical amplification and/or detection gear for emulating the Newtype's extrasensory perception abilities. The eccentric or erratic behavior of many early Cyber-Newtypes could be attributed to imperfect brainwave amplification and/or a consequence of their system reacting poorly to naturally-induced stress after being conditioned using artificial (chemical) stresses.

[BrentD15]

Just my two cents on the whole Cyber-Newtype psychological breakdown thing.

I think part of the reason why cyber-newtypes go through the whole identity conflict thing partly might be because of whether or not they willingly go through the process, which may be why some people like Four and Rosamia go through the whole psychological meltdown thing while other cyber-newtypes like Gyunei, Chara, and even Full Frontal (who may be the most stable cyber-newtype I've ever known) don't go through the whole identity conflict thing.

Or it might be whether or not memory alterations were necessary. What do I know?

[Mimeblade]

^Depends on what you mean by "stable". Full Frontal was a terrorist... compare/contrast with Banagher Links who basically played "games" as a kid and had no compunctions for ruling the Earth Sphere.