Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

As a result, there are too many "ifs" and "possible", and therefore it is not surprising that the federal MS easier, better and more reliable, and look cooler, thanks to the use of classical technologies, not some obscure and questionable design decisions
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domtropen
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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

Doesn't the fed and AE use at least some of Zeon's tech on various MSs after OYW, including Jegan?

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... &start=400
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JEFFPIATT
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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

domtropen wrote:Doesn't the fed and AE use at least some of Zeon's tech on various MSs after OYW, including Jegan?

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... &start=400
the tech trees merged between 0083 and 0087 the hi-zack was an gm in a zaku body while the nemo was an zeon tech suit in an RGM body the jengan was the final merger expanding on the nemos tech with elements of the mk 2 and the zeta project tech trees. By the Neo Zeon conflicts AE was building ms for both sides of the conflicts with shared tech to the point where the internals were almost the same but the external was in GM body style for EFF units and Zeonic style armor on units sold to neo zeon forces the first example being the AGX-04 witch was an half built RX-78GP04 tht the feds canceled so the zeonic techs working on it decided to give the upper body an more zeon type style and AE donated the prototype to an EFSF allied zeon fleet.
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

-Mit- wrote:As a result, there are too many "ifs" and "possible", and therefore it is not surprising that the federal MS easier, better and more reliable, and look cooler, thanks to the use of classical technologies, not some obscure and questionable design decisions
How cool a MS looks is a matter of taste: personally I find Zeon Ms much cooler than EF designs.

Reliability on the other hand might not be the EF's MS strongest suit as you seem to believe:

-Due to its rushed development and the cost reduction measures it underwent from the original Gundam design:

Although the existing GM was an accident-prone machine due to its rushed development, there was still some resistance to the idea of using captured Zeon mobile suits "as is.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ndam3.html

-On the other hand, Zeon MS, particularly Zaku types, are generally considered high quality machines that can be kept in wokring order even with little maintenance, a fact best exemplified by how long some Zeon Remnants keep using their old machines (in some cases more than a decade old) despite having little or no access to spare parts or facilities to perform maintenance to their units.

-Last, but not least there's the fact that the EF ends up replacing the GM series with none other than a Zaku type MS at one point, the Hizack. In another thread Mark pointed some of the reasons for this:

The books and kit manuals and whatnot generally don't go into a lot of detail about why the Federation adopted an upgraded Zaku as its standard machine. For the most part, it seems to have been chosen for exactly the same reasons that the Zaku was successful - it's easy to operate, and easy to produce in large numbers.

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... us#p248740

"Better" quite dependent on the particular situation:

-Against old Zakus and Rick Doms, the GM tended to have have and advantage.

-Against Goufs and Doms, not so much, as per the recent info on the MSV-R handbooks:

As the RGM-79 was gradually deployed on the front lines, pilots began to demand performance improvements, due to its lack of firepower and poor mobility against the latest MS-07 and MS-09 types.

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14896

Namely the RGM-79L and RGC-80 are mentioned as the response to these demands. The RGM-79D is also sometimes described as an anti-Dom use GM. However, I suspect that neither the RGM-79L nor the RGM-79D managed to properly fit the role of anti-Dom since their mobility improvements were minimal.

So there you have it: in your own words, the EF decided to replace their own "easier, better and more reliable (not), and look cooler" MS (which uses classical technologies), with an MS with "some obscure and questionable design decisions". The reasons were simple: Zaku type MS tend to be more reliable, easier to operate and can be easily mass produced in large quantities. In comparison the GM II, which is usually said to be just a marginal upgrade over the basic GM, is largely considered obsolete already by U.C. 0087.

Ultimately the fact remains that comparing a standard GM to a Zaku II tends to be a hard idea to sell. Despite some last minute additions to the original design, such as the shoulder spikes and heat hawk, the MS-06 series wasn't designed with anti-MS combat in mind, while the Gundam and GM were basically developed with that sole purpose in mind. Comparing a GM to a Gouf or Gelgoog would be a more even comparison.
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MythSearcher
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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
So there you have it: in your own words, the EF decided to replace their own "easier, better and more reliable (not), and look cooler" MS (which uses classical technologies), with an MS with "some obscure and questionable design decisions". The reasons were simple: Zaku type MS tend to be more reliable, easier to operate and can be easily mass produced in large quantities. In comparison the GM II, which is usually said to be just a marginal upgrade over the basic GM, is largely considered obsolete already by U.C. 0087.

Ultimately the fact remains that comparing a standard GM to a Zaku II tends to be a hard idea to sell. Despite some last minute additions to the original design, such as the shoulder spikes and heat hawk, the MS-06 series wasn't designed with anti-MS combat in mind, while the Gundam and GM were basically developed with that sole purpose in mind. Comparing a GM to a Gouf or Gelgoog would be a more even comparison.
Because by 0087, they are already upgrading to GM III.(mostly through upgrading RGM-179 GM IIs, but some RGM-86R are newly built, the Nouvel GM IIIs)

Also, pretty much after the 2nd generation MSs, most MSs on both sides used a concept closer to the GM, since the movable frame is a more internal frame structure than the more block build Zaku, even if their appearance look like Zeonic MSs.

The Zaku is more reliable likely because it got more develop time and history, but the GM line given time also became one of the most reliable, prominent and easy to mass produce units, with great freedom in enhancability with the GM being able to upgrade to C, then CR, then II(with a little of Q mixed in), then III, still being used in at least 0093, (14 years, with Jegan still uses some of GM III's concepts and ideas) after 3 major conflicts after its first roll out; and the Jegan developing into several different types and still used in at least 0133(44years), after at least 2 major conflicts(sans Mars Zeon)
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

Actually, I'm not convinced that the GM III is an EF design:

-For starters, the EF is already working on the Barzam as a repalcement to the GM II and Hizack.
-The Barzam itself is supposed to be completed with data from the Gundam Mk II, but once the prototypes are stolen, it is compelted with data from the Marasai.
-The Nouvelle GM III's profile says its manufacturer is the AEUG.
-The standard GM III uses a color scheme similar to the captured GM IIs used by the AEUG, contrary to the know color schemes used by previous mainstay GM units.
-The EF forces on Sentinel Gundam already seem to be using some other AE MS.

My personal take on the matter is that the GM III probably started as an AEUG design (probably around U.C. 0086 as its model number suggests), essentially a proposal for upgrading the bunch of captured GM IIs that made up the majority of the AEUG's MS forces early on.

With the capture of the Gundam Mk II, AE revises the design proposal to include elements from the new prototype (much like how the Barzam was meant to), which might have ended up pushing back the implementation of the upgrade (as well as the production of new units) to the point that the GM IIIs weren't ready in time for participating in the Gryps Conflict.

IIRC, some of the old official claims indicated that the Nemo was completed with data from the Gundam Mk II. However, the Nemo seems to be already around by the time the Argama delivers the Mk II and its data to Granada. I think the GM III would better fit this role, specially since it actually ends up sharing design elements with the Mk II.

As for the Hizack, and probably also the Barzam and other MS used by the Titans, I guess the simplest explanation is that they were given the same treatment as the Alexandria class after the Titans were defeated and the EF wanted to distance itself from the Titans. After all, unlike the Unicorn novels, the OVAs show that the EF is no longer using mono-eye MS. This goes to the extent of replacing the mono-eyes of the Byarlant Custom units with a GM visors.
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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

The phasing out of the RMS line of suits with zeon style monoeyes was an political moveby the fed to remove any thing titans related or was deployed against the EFF as an bunch of RMS suits were captured by axis and integrated in to there ranks. The remaining zeon styles usits were either sold as export models to the ROZ defense forces or refitted in to hobby models like the hobby hizack. the Byarlant Custom seems to have been an project to salvage the budget put in to the titans MS R&D with the requirement that it be made more heroic looking with an GM style sensor. on the GM III the first units we see in ZZ are not AEUG but Karaba units my guess would be that Karaba requested that AE do an refit kit for the RGM-79R series as an cheaper alternative to buying all new nemos to ship down to earth and what we got was the RGM-89R with RX-178 parts fitted to an RGM-79 body style the Nouvel GM III seems to keep the older body style but has the extra chest vents like the powered GM and uses the folding shield the mk II used and keeps the same model code
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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Actually, I'm not convinced that the GM III is an EF design:

-For starters, the EF is already working on the Barzam as a repalcement to the GM II and Hizack.
-The Barzam itself is supposed to be completed with data from the Gundam Mk II, but once the prototypes are stolen, it is compelted with data from the Marasai.
-The Nouvelle GM III's profile says its manufacturer is the AEUG.
-The standard GM III uses a color scheme similar to the captured GM IIs used by the AEUG, contrary to the know color schemes used by previous mainstay GM units.
-The EF forces on Sentinel Gundam already seem to be using some other AE MS.

My personal take on the matter is that the GM III probably started as an AEUG design (probably around U.C. 0086 as its model number suggests), essentially a proposal for upgrading the bunch of captured GM IIs that made up the majority of the AEUG's MS forces early on.

With the capture of the Gundam Mk II, AE revises the design proposal to include elements from the new prototype (much like how the Barzam was meant to), which might have ended up pushing back the implementation of the upgrade (as well as the production of new units) to the point that the GM IIIs weren't ready in time for participating in the Gryps Conflict.

IIRC, some of the old official claims indicated that the Nemo was completed with data from the Gundam Mk II. However, the Nemo seems to be already around by the time the Argama delivers the Mk II and its data to Granada. I think the GM III would better fit this role, specially since it actually ends up sharing design elements with the Mk II.

As for the Hizack, and probably also the Barzam and other MS used by the Titans, I guess the simplest explanation is that they were given the same treatment as the Alexandria class after the Titans were defeated and the EF wanted to distance itself from the Titans. After all, unlike the Unicorn novels, the OVAs show that the EF is no longer using mono-eye MS. This goes to the extent of replacing the mono-eyes of the Byarlant Custom units with a GM visors.
Well, I'm talking more about the contruction method than the appearance of the MS.
sure, the Barzam looks like a Zeon MS, but it is modified from Mk-II, which is a purely EFSF MS, so its construction method is the GM style instead of the Zaku style. The only Zeon technology used might be the monoeye system. I don't think it used too much of Marasai's designs, from Gundam Encyclopeadia Ver 1.5, it didn't mention Marasai, and stated that it based on the Mk-II frame and simplify it and stripped it down to what we see now, so even if it used some of Marasai's designs, the frame is still a EFF style frame. So you have something with the skin of a Zeon MS, but the inner parts are purely EFF. Opposite of GP02A and GP04G, which got the skin of EFF Gundam, but the inner is purely Zeon.
AE MSs are more mixed, I guess, but after the moveable frame, the contruction method is more GM than Zaku. Even when GM III was developed by AE, it is simply an upgrade of the GM II, and is based on a GM frame instead of having a Zeon MS frame.

BTW, the Marasai is designed by AE for AEUG, so it has little Titans blood in it. After the start of Gryps conflict, AE gave it to Titans for free as a political move.
GM III from current official data does state that it used Mk-II's data. And well, it is not really by AE, but rather Karaba's own design, and since they shared it with AEUG, when AEUG took over control of EF, they used it as the main mass-production unit.

About the Titans designs though, the MSs are modified, but at least we know that the Alexandria class is used until UC0153. My input is that it is not really distancing itself from Titans, but rather AEUG control using more of their own designs in order to reduce cost and repay AE for political reasons.
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domtropen
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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

Isn't the notion that Barzam was developed straight from Mk II is a retcon? http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9104
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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

domtropen wrote:Isn't the notion that Barzam was developed straight from Mk II is a retcon? http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9104
Still, I use what's official.
BTW, if none of the older books says it is not directly from Mk-II, and said nothing about it basing on other MSs, then the retcon did not change anything, just made things clearer.
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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

The major advantage the GM III had was the fact that it could be build with minimal changes to the existing RMS-179 production lines where as the Brazam would have required major changes to existing factory lines. what would not have helped it's case was the existence of two barzam body styles penzen seemed to produce the refined type that retained more of the gundam mk II body style and retained the backpack only changing the torso and head while most other bases built the simplified base model the issue being with the fact it was so basic the main efsf brass could not be sold on scrapping the old RGM-79R production lines to this models tool and dies. The other factor being the federation civilian government switching sides to the AEUG half of the miltary so only titans directly controlled ms lines wold get switched over. The fell removal of outwardly Zeonic style ms from the EFF MS fleet would be done on political grounds witch also involved mothballing the Alexandria class and integrating the AEUG ships and ms in to the fleet witch eventually led to the RGM-89 Jegan where the suits stayed to an federal outer body with zeon tech being only internal.
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Optimization mechanical design of the Zaku series

MythSearcher wrote:Well, I'm talking more about the contruction method than the appearance of the MS. sure, the Barzam looks like a Zeon MS, but it is modified from Mk-II, which is a purely EFSF MS, so its construction method is the GM style instead of the Zaku style. The only Zeon technology used might be the monoeye system. I don't think it used too much of Marasai's designs, from Gundam Encyclopeadia Ver 1.5, it didn't mention Marasai, and stated that it based on the Mk-II frame and simplify it and stripped it down to what we see now, so even if it used some of Marasai's designs, the frame is still a EFF style frame. So you have something with the skin of a Zeon MS, but the inner parts are purely EFF.
Actually, Mark did point out a source that indicated that the Barzam was completed with Marasai data after the Mk II is stolen:

The Zeta Gundam Historica books echo some of the above points, and add some interesting claims about its development history. By their explanation, the original plan was to base the Barzam on data from the Gundam Mark II, but after the loss of the prototype machines they ended up borrowing data and technology from the Marasai instead. Thus the Barzam ended up as a hybrid of Federation and Zeon technology, part Mark II and part Marasai. (This suggests that the Titans viewed the Marasai more as a source of data for future mass-production models than as a mass production type in its own right, which seems consistent with its scarcity throughout most of the TV series.)

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 4&start=20

Regarding the comments about the GM III, they do sound about right: it makes more sense to think that it was a model desgined by AE, partially based on the recently captured Mk II, for Karaba.

As for the discontinuation of Titans units, I gues that another possible reason could be the Titans betrayal during U.C. 0088, when supposedly many of the units at Dakar betrayed the EF and joined Neo Zeon, allowing Haman to take control of Dakar. We could even assume that the Hizacks and Marasais seen during the Battle of Axis (on both sides) are piloted by former Titans.
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