What is the final word on Cosmic Era beam technology?

[Deathzealot]

Again. That is only one of the combined forms. There is a second form.

[Arsarcana]

The combined weapon when the Gun Launcher is in the forward position also fires yellow projectiles, which fits with the usual convention of yellow=solid ammunition thing CE has going on. The yellow beam when the High-Energy Rifle is in the front (as seen in that image) is a bit of an odd-one out.

[BrentD15]

But we've firmly established the beam sabers can block each other, right?

Or did I do all that research for nothing?*

*I did enjoy it though...

Who knows?
The inconsistency of the source material certainly doesn't help.

What inconsistency? There are multiple instances of saber clashes in the show, one of which is in the intro (see my previously linked screenshot).

At the same time, there are *zero* instances of sabers passing through one another.

And many of them were edited out in the Remaster (with the exception of a couple, including the Aegis and Aile Strike clash).

[Deathonator]

And many of them were edited out in the Remaster (with the exception of a couple, including the Aegis and Aile Strike clash).

None were edited out as far as I know, one was even remastered in the battle of Duel and Strike in space IIRC.

[Product9]

And many of them were edited out in the Remaster (with the exception of a couple, including the Aegis and Aile Strike clash).

Nothing was 'edited out' in the remaster. Some stuff was changed or added, but I'm sure they didn't do it to take out any content such as saber clashes. Like I stated before with screenshot proof, one is in the intro.

For me to believe sabers cannot clash in CE, I need to see a specific instance of them passing through one another. There was the rumor that Infinite Justice's saber passed through the beam of Destiny's anti-ship sword, but I already disproved that with my GIF.

So unless there is some proof, myth busted.

[domino]

So unless there is some proof, myth busted.

I'll agree with you here. Fans don't seem to want to let go of it though.

I'm still curious about the properties of beam shields. The breakdown on Wikis is interesting - as is the breakdown by Mark on the different TYPES of beams but it seems that beam shields in CE can effectively defend against all types. In the anime we also witness the Akatsuki and IJ using their beam shield variants to negate the Positron Reflector so it appears the only weakness of a beam shield (without an exposed generator like the Hyperion) is another beam shield.

That makes me assume that beam shields may not be flat & square beam sabers like in UC but are some other mirage colloid effect. However mirage colloid was banned so what gives?

[Product9]

I'll agree with you here. Fans don't seem to want to let go of it though.

It amazes me the things people staunchly hold onto. I can't believe how many fans believe Freedom's nuclear reactor exploded, and will hang onto that even after I provide incontrovertible proof that it did not.

I suspect the beam saber thing is going to be similar.

[E08]

I'm still curious about the properties of beam shields. The breakdown on Wikis is interesting - as is the breakdown by Mark on the different TYPES of beams but it seems that beam shields in CE can effectively defend against all types. In the anime we also witness the Akatsuki and IJ using their beam shield variants to negate the Positron Reflector so it appears the only weakness of a beam shield (without an exposed generator like the Hyperion) is another beam shield.

If i recall correctly, didn't Akatsuki just charge through the Positron Reflector using its body and not its shield (anyway, Akatsuki also don't have any beam shield)? I don't remember if the remastered version change it though. Anyway, assuming that i didn't remember wrongly and the remastered version didn't change things, a possible explanation is that whatever made up the Positron Reflector is also susceptible to the Akatsuki's Yata-no-Kagami's reflection ability, hence the Positron Reflector cannot stop it.

As for the IJ's beam shield negating the Positron Reflector, it may depend on how different the beam shield is from its predecessor - "Armure Lumiere" mono-phase lightwave shield. We do know that the "Armure Lumiere" can penetrate through the Positron Reflector, so it is not that impossible that the beam shield cannot negate it.

[domino]

I'm not debating whether or not the beam shields can negate "weaker" predecessors but more so....why is it that they can do that, act as offensive weapons (the Lightwave barrier/shields can at least) while also blocking beams?

The fact that they do not clash but instead can negate each other, reminds me of Forbidden's Mirage Colloid field distorting beams.....but it can't be that since that tech was banned right?

Basically, they can't be thin walls of beam energy since what they negated are proven as very capable of deflecting beams. So they have to be made of some other tech that is still capable of being offensive.

[Product9]

Basically, they can't be thin walls of beam energy since what they negated are proven as very capable of deflecting beams. So they have to be made of some other tech that is still capable of being offensive.

Define "beam energy".

Near as I can tell, this is impossible to resolve since we aren't made aware of what regular beam weapons fire to begin with, nor are we aware of what contains a beam saber's blade. The best we can hope for is consistent depiction in the source material, and I think they did a pretty good job of that.

I am sort of glad the technology base is pretty diverse though. It always bothered me in UC Gundam how every new technology is based on the same Minovsky particle pseudoscience. SEED started out with beyond visual range combat being a thing too, but unfortunately the production staff seemed to forget about that concept pretty quickly.

[BrentD15]

Basically, they can't be thin walls of beam energy since what they negated are proven as very capable of deflecting beams. So they have to be made of some other tech that is still capable of being offensive.

Near as I can tell, this is impossible to resolve since we aren't made aware of what regular beam weapons fire to begin with, nor are we aware of what contains a beam saber's blade. The best we can hope for is consistent depiction in the source material, and I think they did a pretty good job of that.

Well, the beam saber part is easy.
It's just a stream of plasma in an electromagnetic field.
And let's just say I disagree with the sentiment that they did a "good job" of consistency being depicted in the source material.

[Product9]

Well, the beam saber part is easy.
It's just a stream of plasma in an electromagnetic field.
And let's just say I disagree with the sentiment that they did a "good job" of consistency being depicted in the source material.

I understand and accept that you disagree, but some proof to support your claim would be appreciated.

[Deathzealot]

Honestly. Something that I like about SEED over UC is the abundance of different weapon types. In UC it was various stripes of machine guns, many variances of beam weapons, oh they could get creative with them but still beam weapons, and Missiles. With some rare Laser Weapons. In the Cosmic Era we have Railguns/Linear Cannons, Plasma Cannons, Beam Weapons, Shotgun like Gunlaunchers, machine guns, freaking anti-matter powered super cannons, missiles and a couple more I am sure.

[Product9]

I was skimming through the thread and I came across talk about the Akatsuki Gundam's beam deflection capabilities. I'm not here to offer an explanation of how the technology works (as I don't really care... it's a fictional technology that counters another fictional technology), but I did notice something interesting.

The talk is such that it cannot defend against beam sabers, but what proof do we have of that? As far as I know, the only time Akatsuki was really damaged was when Shinn used a beam boomerang to sever one of its arms. However, I don't think this is conclusive, because the boomerang cut the elbow joint.

Since the beam defense technology is what supposedly gives Akatsuki it's gold sheen, then we can probably conclude that since the joints aren't shiny, they are unprotected. Now, the implications for the other parts of the Gundam notwithstanding, can we assume the joints are vulnerable to beam weaponry?

I've put together a GIF that shows the scene. You can clearly see the non-shiny, gray colored elbow was what was cut.

Link to GIF

I slowed it down a bit after the boomerang made contact to give a bit more time to see the effect.

So, can Akatsuki's system defend against beam sabers? I'd say it's plausible.

[BrentD15]

Well, the beam saber part is easy.
It's just a stream of plasma in an electromagnetic field.
And let's just say I disagree with the sentiment that they did a "good job" of consistency being depicted in the source material.

I understand and accept that you disagree, but some proof to support your claim would be appreciated.

It's from the Strike Rouge kit.

[Product9]

It's from the Strike Rouge kit.

The Strike Rouge kit isn't sufficient evidence.

Besides, wasn't it discussed in this very thread that it did not in fact state beam sabers could not repel one another? That all of that was conjecture made by a specific YouTuber?

Furthermore, how do you figure an electromagnetic field powerful enough to suspend a plasma in a given shape wouldn't be able to repel another, similarly charged electromagnetic field of similar power?

Furtherfurthermore, where is it written beam sabers are contained by an electromagnetic field?

Furthestmost, I have cited specific examples in the anime where sabers are clashing (with screenshot proof), to include the intro of the HD Remaster. There has been no evidence to support the claim that saber clashes were edited out of the HD Remaster other than baseless hearsay. I have also debunked the theory that Infinite Justice's beam saber passed through the blade of Destiny's anti-ship sword.

So again, I ask. Where is your proof?

[E08]

Well, the beam saber part is easy.
It's just a stream of plasma in an electromagnetic field.
And let's just say I disagree with the sentiment that they did a "good job" of consistency being depicted in the source material.

I understand and accept that you disagree, but some proof to support your claim would be appreciated.

It's from the Strike Rouge kit.

Just curious BrentD15, what is it about the Strike Rouge kit are you talking about? The beam saber being a stream of plasma in the electromagnetic field or the "good job" of consistency thingy? If it is the beam saber, do you know which Strike Rouge kit is it from? Or if you heard/read about it from somewhere can you provide the weblink? Sorry for these questions, just want to know the source since all the information i can find on the CE beam saber just mention it has a beam blade, and nothing about plasma...

Furthermore, where is it written beam sabers are contained by an electromagnetic field?

Well, we do know that magnetic field technology is needed for the beam saber to function. Here's the relevant text from the archived Gundam Official: "The blade of the beam saber is formed using the same magnetic field generation technology that holds the Blitz Gundam's Mirage Colloid in place." Similar wording is also used by model kits' manuals when talking about the beam saber. I'm not very good in physics, so i'm not sure if the magnetic field here is implying electromagnetic field...

[Erisie]

Honestly. Something that I like about SEED over UC is the abundance of different weapon types. In UC it was various stripes of machine guns, many variances of beam weapons, oh they could get creative with them but still beam weapons, and Missiles. With some rare Laser Weapons.

Some things to consider:
SEED had an advantage of two decades not only of technological developments, but also the Gundam franchise. The staff had the time to compile some notes about which technologies could potentially be used as weapons in the future. More recent UC works have added things like railguns to its mobile suits (eg. Thunderbolt's Atlas Gundam has a railgun as its main weapon).
UC has Minovsky Physics as the end-all, be-all of technological development (it also served as a convenient shortcut for Tomino to justify his setting's weapons). Victory only miniaturized some concepts used from the OYW days. SEED doesn't have that luxury. Sure, you got Mirage Colloid in CE, which basically works for whatever the authors want it to, but it's nowhere near as crucial as Minovsky Physics.

Beam Weapons

As I stated earlier, we still don't know what the freaking hell the CE's "beams" are. At least the ones that are shot from MS' rifles and warships. If we believe Mark's color theory and extrapolate from the GINN's ion cannon, then it is possible that all ranged "beam rifles" work through some form of weaponized particle acceleration.

Shotgun like Gunlaunchers

I'd really like to know how the hell does that work. The closest equivalent to that (tank's canister shots) are unable to penetrate armor. The best implementation I've seen so far was the sniper rifle from The Origin I's Loum sequence: a solid shell that penetrates the hull, and later breaks up into shrapnel that breaks the ship from the inside out.

Plasma Cannons

While I fully understand that plasma weapons are a staple of science-fiction, the truth of the matter is that a ranged plasma cannon simply would not work: plasma diffuses rapidly, even in vacuum. The only way to make it work is to contain the plasma in a magnetic field across a distance.
Speaking of this, I'd like to open up a different question: if, according to the Strike Rouge's manual, the CE's beam sabers work just like the UC's (magnetically-contained plasma), then what's the difference between the CE's "plasma" weapons and other "beam" weapons? If we maintain the previous theory regarding "beam" rifles, then it is entirely possible that "beam" is nothing more than a monicker for certain weapons systems, regardless of their specific operation.

freaking anti-matter powered super cannons

Which is a waste of antimatter, since the "punch" comes from the particles' sheer velocity, not its nature.

And yes, I know that applying real-life science to an anime's logic might seem counter-intuitive, but it's still a lot of fun.

[Kuruni]

Honestly. Something that I like about SEED over UC is the abundance of different weapon types. In UC it was various stripes of machine guns, many variances of beam weapons, oh they could get creative with them but still beam weapons, and Missiles. With some rare Laser Weapons.

Some things to consider:
SEED had an advantage of two decades not only of technological developments, but also the Gundam franchise. The staff had the time to compile some notes about which technologies could potentially be used as weapons in the future. More recent UC works have added things like railguns to its mobile suits (eg. Thunderbolt's Atlas Gundam has a railgun as its main weapon).

*Cough* Railgun was around in UC since M-MSV and F90. I'm pretty sure 1990 isn't "recent" in this context.

[Product9]

Which is a waste of antimatter

You'd think if they could make antimatter so easily there wouldn't be any energy shortages due to the neutron jammers.

But, those positron cannons are terrifying. Murrue Ramius specifically didn't want to use the Lohengrin in Earth's atmosphere because of the devastating effects of the gamma ray burst from annihilations, but Talia Gladys had no qualms (dang space people). Every time the Tannhauser is used in atmosphere, it causes some spectacular effects, such as exploding the air, and in one instance a blast on the level of a medium-sized nuclear explosion when the beam hit seawater (this is what a lot of fans think was Freedom's nuclear reactor exploding, but it's pretty clear that's not what happened. You can see the Tannhauser beam connecting the Minerva and the origin of the blast).

The positron cannons are weapons of mass destruction.

Also, the article linked may be missing a few points. Mostly about how antimatter bombs wouldn't be all that effective because of the way annihilation would happen, but I point to fission bombs as having overcome a similar problem with criticality. Also, they are referring to a particle beam accelerated to near relativistic velocity, which, IMO, the positron cannons in the CE timeline are far from reaching.

Interesting stuff nonetheless. Though, for the record, I wish we could just uninvent WMDs...