Funnel Operational Time?

[AmuroNT1]

This is something that just recently sprang to mind and has kind of been bugging me since. Do we have any sort of idea how long a funnel can operate on its own before it has to return "home" to recharge/restock on fuel/propellant/whatever? The Gundam Wiki makes mention of funnels using "electronic cells" for propulsion rather than chemical propellant, but I take everything that site says with a grain of salt.

[MythSearcher]

This is something that just recently sprang to mind and has kind of been bugging me since. Do we have any sort of idea how long a funnel can operate on its own before it has to return "home" to recharge/restock on fuel/propellant/whatever? The Gundam Wiki makes mention of funnels using "electronic cells" for propulsion rather than chemical propellant, but I take everything that site says with a grain of salt.

Well, they use e-caps, so that also needs to be recharged.
These likely run out before the propellants do.

I doubt there will be any firm settings for these, since we don't even have the actual operational time for MSs.
We can maybe at most do a rough estimate that can be off by a magnitude or two.

[Gelgoog Jager]

It should be noted that while funnels became the post-OYW replacements for bits (Elmeth's weapons), some units seem to use funnels that might actually be bits.

One such case is the AMX-015 Geymalk which uses 28 child funnels and 2 mother funnels, while the former seem to be regular funnels, the mother funnel have their own reactors and are further said to serve the function of resupplying the child funnels while also allowing them to increase their combat range.

I also suspect that the Alpha Azieru's large funnels which are also said to be capable of operating over long ranges to actually be bits.

One unit that I suspect might also be carrying "bits" rather than standard funnels is the Queen Mansa: it's profile says it carries 30 funnels just like the AMX-004G, but unlike the later the NZ-000 only has 14 racks for them on its tail binder. This makes me suspect that a part of the profiles of these units got mixed up with the description of the AMX-004G's getting copy pasted on the NZ-000's profile. Anyway, while the Queen Mansa has less funnels available, it's almost twice as large as Qubeley and the same can probably be assumed about its funnels, which in turn would make them closer in size to the Geymalk's mother funnel which do are confirmed to essentially bits.

I certainly feel more inclined to that alternative than assuming that Queen Mansa would essentially have either less or worse equipment than regular size units from its same period such as the Geymalk and Qubeley MP type.

[Lord Dearche]

Weren't Nu's Fin Funnels actually bits?

[Arsarcana]

Technically, yes. I imagine they're not called that simply because Fin Funnel rolls off the tongue better.

[Gelgoog Jager]

As I mentioned earlier, after the introduction of funnels even clear examples of bits are referred to as funnels. The one exception I can think of are reflector bits.

[Lord Dearche]

Technically, yes. I imagine they're not called that simply because Fin Funnel rolls off the tongue better.

That was always my thought for the name usage as well. Plus Char already used bits so they probably wanted Amuro to have the other name for his to sperate them even more.

[MythSearcher]

The fun thing is that Funnels are called so because of their shape, but after the first few, all unwired remote controlled weapons are called funnels(except reflector bits), Fin Funnels do not resemble funnels at all.

[AmuroNT1]

That sort of thing has been known to happen in real military history. The name "tank" has a vague origin, but the general consensus is that it came about because England wanted to disguise the nature of their new weapon, and thus passed them off as giant water tanks.

[Dendrobium Stamen]

That sort of thing has been known to happen in real military history. The name "tank" has a vague origin, but the general consensus is that it came about because England wanted to disguise the nature of their new weapon, and thus passed them off as giant water tanks.

"Mobile water tanks for the Western Front", if I recall correctly; the 'water tank' name led to the first models being officially named Tank Mk.I, Tank Mk.II, etc. - and then once other countries started building their own, the British name simply became the generic term for these new 'land-cruisers'.

The problem with working out the operational time of funnels - to drag us back to topic - is that we so rarely see a battle which goes on long enough for it to become a concern; generally an enemy using funnels (or bits) will either wipe out their opponent so quickly it's not an issue, or encounters an enemy capable of shooting down said remote weapons before they need to recharge.

Also relevant, different timelines have different constraints, due to the different sets of fictional physics involved; an AD-era machine, for example, can keep its GN Fangs operating until their particle reserves run too low, whilst a DRAGOON System from the Cosmic Era will no doubt require its battery recharging every so often.

So I think the short answer is: As long as the plot demands

[balofo]

I don't think operational time info exists for Gundam

[Gelgoog Jager]

Given the examples that have been mentioned so far, it would seem that the operational range of funnels is mainly limited to their "ammo" rather than their propellant capacity. After all, propellant capacity seems to be a concern mainly when it's about unskilled pilots wasting propellant through inefficient maneuvering:

Supposedly a the low quality of Zeon pilots around translated into many them running out of propellant while using Zaku IIs. Taking such perspective into account, the Zaku F2 and Rick Dom are said to have larger propellant capacity compared to the basic MS-06F, which probably is a result of attempting to address that issue. This is why I still find incongruent the idea that the MS-06FZ designed for rookie pilots has only half the operational time of a standard Zaku II.

[MythSearcher]

Given the examples that have been mentioned so far, it would seem that the operational range of funnels is mainly limited to their "ammo" rather than their propellant capacity. After all, propellant capacity seems to be a concern mainly when it's about unskilled pilots wasting propellant through inefficient maneuvering:

Supposedly a the low quality of Zeon pilots around translated into many them running out of propellant while using Zaku IIs. Taking such perspective into account, the Zaku F2 and Rick Dom are said to have larger propellant capacity compared to the basic MS-06F, which probably is a result of attempting to address that issue. This is why I still find incongruent the idea that the MS-06FZ designed for rookie pilots has only half the operational time of a standard Zaku II.

Well, if we think of how the FZ was used, the halved time is not really strange.
They are used in places where you see less conflict, and we see that they are deployed in colonies or at least near them, I highly suspect they are also used on Earth.
Judging their method used on Bernie, they put rookies in a more combat mild zone(unlucky for Bernie, the EFSF not only started to field MSs but also has one of the most powerful Gundams testing there), hoping they will accumulate more experience and battle hardened before going into a more series battle, much different from what they do at the start of the war. If its ground or colony combat, the propellant became less of an issue.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Well, if we think of how the FZ was used, the halved time is not really strange.
They are used in places where you see less conflict, and we see that they are deployed in colonies or at least near them, I highly suspect they are also used on Earth.

Most of the battles seen on 0080 do seem to fit such criteria; even the space battle on episode 2 has the Rick Dom IIs and Gelgoog Jagers launch without external propellant tanks. The other known group use them are the Homeland Defense Corps, which are also meant to inside or close to colonies (the same group even has at least one ground use MS-07B-3 among their ranks). By the way, we do see a FZ on the ground in the 4th UC OVA.

On the other hand, the simualtion of the 3rd 0080 OVA depicts a Gelgoog Jager and Rick Dom II with external propellant tanks, but the Zaku II Kai on the same sequence doesn't seem to have any.

Also, in Gundam Side Stories for the PS3, we do see one of the Zeon pilots from the Missing Link story being assigned a MS-06FZ, which he uses to participate in several battles in open space, such as the very first mission you are given the Zaku II Kai, which would contradict the assumption that it's not meant to be used in such situations. In other missions we see other FZ units used in similar scenarios.

I also seem to recall that in EiS many MS-06FZ were used in open space missions, for example, the first mission of the Place Beyond the Blaze (G04's and G05's) have MS-06FZs sortie from Musais in an open space area.

While the later examples are from videogames, at least the case from Missing Link should have some weight to it as it concerns a member of the main Zeon campaign:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0812025749

Judging their method used on Bernie, they put rookies in a more combat mild zone(unlucky for Bernie, the EFSF not only started to field MSs but also has one of the most powerful Gundams testing there), hoping they will accumulate more experience and battle hardened before going into a more series battle, much different from what they do at the start of the war. If its ground or colony combat, the propellant became less of an issue.

I do will agree that if the intention was to be used on the ground or in colonies, propellant is not such a pressing issues. Still, I'm under the impression that the background info feels more like a forced addition to try to diferentiate the 0080 version from the original version. The very fact that the MS-06FZ backpack is larger than that of a regular MS-06F (specially the very first versions) seems to trhow out the window that it simply was given greater thrust without greater propellant capcity. It doesn't help matter that the the designer even came up with his own version of the MS-06F, which shares more traits with the MS-06FZ, such as more verniers around the body and even a side leg thruster already in place:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/YFX-600 ... 3.jpg.html

Between the larger backpack and legs, not to mention the pressence of the leg thruster as per the original designer, I feel find the background info unconvincing, specially considering that the design of the MS-06FZ included very minor, but significant details, such as the B helmet which upon closer inspection almost seems to be simply equipped right on top of the regular head, as observed from the rear section covering the head cable, or the left hip armor which server as an ammo rack for MMP-80 clips (which was passed down to the AMS-119):

http://dalong.net/review/hg/h87/p/h87_16.jpg
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 1005072135
http://dalong.net/review/mg/m171/p/m171_m0022.JPG

On more detail I noticed is that the lineart from UC's version of the Desert Zaku shows that it uses the same model grenade as the MS-06FZ:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 1214032029
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0512111208

The Desert Zaku, along a MS-09G and a MS-09F/trop, throw these into the air and then these propel themselves into their targets ahead. I can't help but wonder if the MS-06FZ might have been meant to sue them in such fashion, or perhaps in a similar way to the Heavygun's own hip grenades, which IIRC it's seen at least once using them like that, or the De'nan Gei's shoulder mounted grenades.

Finally, I wanted to mention a similar case: that of the MSM-03C (MSM-03/C per the original model kit) Hygogg, which Mark once mentioned that early on was meant to be the MSM-05/B Gock (or something like that), but in the end it was rebranded as we now know in order to force a relationship between the Capule and the Gogg. Personally I dislike that idea, mainly because of how unique the Hygogg/Gock is, but specially because now we have the MSM-06 Jurick from MSV-R which seems to better fit the role of an improved Gogg.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6233/6303 ... a487_o.jpg
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 1029220233

[MythSearcher]

Most of the battles seen on 0080 do seem to fit such criteria; even the space battle on episode 2 has the Rick Dom IIs and Gelgoog Jagers launch without external propellant tanks. The other known group use them are the Homeland Defense Corps, which are also meant to inside or close to colonies (the same group even has at least one ground use MS-07B-3 among their ranks). By the way, we do see a FZ on the ground in the 4th UC OVA.

On the other hand, the simualtion of the 3rd 0080 OVA depicts a Gelgoog Jager and Rick Dom II with external propellant tanks, but the Zaku II Kai on the same sequence doesn't seem to have any.

Also, in Gundam Side Stories for the PS3, we do see one of the Zeon pilots from the Missing Link story being assigned a MS-06FZ, which he uses to participate in several battles in open space, such as the very first mission you are given the Zaku II Kai, which would contradict the assumption that it's not meant to be used in such situations. In other missions we see other FZ units used in similar scenarios.

I also seem to recall that in EiS many MS-06FZ were used in open space missions, for example, the first mission of the Place Beyond the Blaze (G04's and G05's) have MS-06FZs sortie from Musais in an open space area.

While the later examples are from videogames, at least the case from Missing Link should have some weight to it as it concerns a member of the main Zeon campaign:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 4081202574

I do will agree that if the intention was to be used on the ground or in colonies, propellant is not such a pressing issues. Still, I'm under the impression that the background info feels more like a forced addition to try to diferentiate the 0080 version from the original version. The very fact that the MS-06FZ backpack is larger than that of a regular MS-06F (specially the very first versions) seems to trhow out the window that it simply was given greater thrust without greater propellant capcity. It doesn't help matter that the the designer even came up with his own version of the MS-06F, which shares more traits with the MS-06FZ, such as more verniers around the body and even a side leg thruster already in place:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/YFX-600 ... 3.jpg.html

Between the larger backpack and legs, not to mention the pressence of the leg thruster as per the original designer, I feel find the background info unconvincing, specially considering that the design of the MS-06FZ included very minor, but significant details, such as the B helmet which upon closer inspection almost seems to be simply equipped right on top of the regular head, as observed from the rear section covering the head cable, or the left hip armor which server as an ammo rack for MMP-80 clips (which was passed down to the AMS-119):

http://dalong.net/review/hg/h87/p/h87_16.jpg
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 1005072135
http://dalong.net/review/mg/m171/p/m171_m0022.JPG

On more detail I noticed is that the lineart from UC's version of the Desert Zaku shows that it uses the same model grenade as the MS-06FZ:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 1214032029
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0512111208

The Desert Zaku, along a MS-09G and a MS-09F/trop, throw these into the air and then these propel themselves into their targets ahead. I can't help but wonder if the MS-06FZ might have been meant to sue them in such fashion, or perhaps in a similar way to the Heavygun's own hip grenades, which IIRC it's seen at least once using them like that, or the De'nan Gei's shoulder mounted grenades.

Finally, I wanted to mention a similar case: that of the MSM-03C (MSM-03/C per the original model kit) Hygogg, which Mark once mentioned that early on was meant to be the MSM-05/B Gock (or something like that), but in the end it was rebranded as we now know in order to force a relationship between the Capule and the Gogg. Personally I dislike that idea, mainly because of how unique the Hygogg/Gock is, but specially because now we have the MSM-06 Jurick from MSV-R which seems to better fit the role of an improved Gogg.

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6233/6303 ... a487_o.jpg
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 1029220233

Well, even in real life, the design intention and the actual usage can be vastly different.
The MS-06FZ likely designed to be for rookies in colonies or on ground, at most next to colonies where in case of using up their propellant, can be rescued easily.
In the heat of the war though, a more powerful unit is likely placed in more serious locations, especially when the rookies using such suits became battle hardened(or not), the unit is like stuck to them(there's not enough free units running around for them to change into).
Imagine if Bernie survived his first battle and is then assigned in a frontline team, he is likely stuck with the FZ instead of getting an F2 or 09R.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

The only time, in animation, that I can recall actually seeing (at least to my belief) a mobile weapon being refueled/recharged would be the Neue Ziel in 0083, shortly after its brief encounter with the Dendrobium (in which Gato would've already been fighting for quite a while). You see it connected to all sorts of wires and pipes, which I assumed were for recharging (I'm sure that even with a single powerful generator, spamming its beam weapons as it did would probably put a drain on the reactor) and refueling (making such a large MA so fast AND maneuverable at the time probably ate up fuel too, even with extra propellent tanks).

Even the Dendrobium, all you actually see are the weapon racks being replaced (and Kou injecting himself with adrenaline or something to keep himself going), but not actually being refueled or anything that I could tell.

[MythSearcher]

The only time, in animation, that I can recall actually seeing (at least to my belief) a mobile weapon being refueled/recharged would be the Neue Ziel in 0083, shortly after its brief encounter with the Dendrobium (in which Gato would've already been fighting for quite a while). You see it connected to all sorts of wires and pipes, which I assumed were for recharging (I'm sure that even with a single powerful generator, spamming its beam weapons as it did would probably put a drain on the reactor) and refueling (making such a large MA so fast AND maneuverable at the time probably ate up fuel too, even with extra propellent tanks).

Even the Dendrobium, all you actually see are the weapon racks being replaced (and Kou injecting himself with adrenaline or something to keep himself going), but not actually being refueled or anything that I could tell.

I also recall the strange occurance of an RGM-79GS being refueled and resupplied by a Salamis automatically in the PS3 game while the whole fleet is basically destroyed by a team of MA-05.

[Gelgoog Jager]

Well, even in real life, the design intention and the actual usage can be vastly different.
The MS-06FZ likely designed to be for rookies in colonies or on ground, at most next to colonies where in case of using up their propellant, can be rescued easily.
In the heat of the war though, a more powerful unit is likely placed in more serious locations, especially when the rookies using such suits became battle hardened(or not), the unit is like stuck to them(there's not enough free units running around for them to change into).
Imagine if Bernie survived his first battle and is then assigned in a frontline team, he is likely stuck with the FZ instead of getting an F2 or 09R.

The RGM-79G is said to be a colony use MS, and as I recall it is only seen figthing inside colonies (0080) and on Earth (0081), properly fitting that role. I suppose the Rick Dom II (or at least a minor variant of it) may also fit that role, sucha s in the case of the green unit that is seen inside Libot or the few units that are seen on Earth on some Gihren Greed animated videos. In favor of such theory the Zaku II Kai do is seen fighting inside Libot, just like the RGM-79G and the green MS-09R2, and at least one more particiaptes on the attack on Torrington Base on U.C. 0096.

The problem with that logic is that the MS-06FZ is also seen fighting alongside space use MS-09R2 and MS-14JG against the space variant of the RGM-79G, the RGM-79GS. I do will note that the MS-09R2 and MS-14JG units participating in the battle are not equipped with external propellant tanks. It should be noted that according to the Mahq profile of both units "The increased thrust and fuel consumption is offset by a pair of large external propellant tanks mounted on the backpack", which pretty much indicate that without them, they might also have reduced operational time comapred to the units they are based on respectively.

However, I also dug an interesting piece of information that Mark posted once, that seems to propose a different background for the MS-06FZ:

"Gundam 0080 the OVA Movies" film comics

The MS-06FZ Zaku II FZ could be called a hidden masterpiece of the war's final stage. Its production numbers were small, but its generator and thruster output rivaled that of the R and S series created for ace pilots, while its ease of operation was comparable to that of the original Zaku II. And although it was unable to drive beam weapons, it also had maneuverability rivaling that of a Gelgoog. (In practice, it was no match for a Gelgoog operated by a skilled pilot, but it made up for this with ease of operation.)

The Zaku II FZ was still relatively unknown by the time the war ended. This was probably due to its very late rollout, just one month before the end of the war, and because its frontline deployment was greatly delayed. This, in turn, was because the Zaku was already branded with the stigma of obsolescence, and most units preferred to be supplied with Rick Doms and Gelgoogs. In the end, the Zaku II FZ was deployed only to a few units (in particular, hastily organized units made up of student soldiers and new recruits), and it produced no notable combat results. There are reports that the Zaku II FZ participated in the operations of Zeon special forces at Side 6, but this is not confirmed.

MS-06FZ Zaku II FZ
A masterpiece of the war's final stage, whose name is unfortunately largely unknown. Although it was deployed only to a few units, it was extremely popular with skilled pilots who preferred using the Zaku, and many machines were seen with customized armor.

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14309

Essentially, it says that the MS-06FZ has similar performance to the Gelgoog, MS-06S and MS-06R series, and that veteran pilots that preferred Zakus also piloted it. Considering that the MS-06R and MS-06S are only produced in very limited quantities, it would be udnerstandable that there was demand for simialr units.

The most significant part is that both its thrust and output should be close to those of the MS-06S and MS-06R. While the MS-06FZ does have the same output as a MS-06S, the official info gives it a far higher thrust than either one (around 80,000kg). Thrust levels have been on going topic of discussion, specially for Mark, but basically that means that there's room to consider that these units do have a similar level of performance. Such scenario brings up some questions, namely in regards to the operational time of the MS-06S and MS-06R: basically the former has the same weight but smaller frame than Zaku II Kai (thus having less space for propellant), however, the R-type series, though also mostly sharing the proportions of a standard Zaku II frame, is known to have larger propellant capacity in the form of a large visible propellant tank on top of the backpack, as well as smaller tanks on the legs (easily removable in the case of the MS-06R-1A).

The only time, in animation, that I can recall actually seeing (at least to my belief) a mobile weapon being refueled/recharged would be the Neue Ziel in 0083, shortly after its brief encounter with the Dendrobium (in which Gato would've already been fighting for quite a while). You see it connected to all sorts of wires and pipes, which I assumed were for recharging (I'm sure that even with a single powerful generator, spamming its beam weapons as it did would probably put a drain on the reactor) and refueling (making such a large MA so fast AND maneuverable at the time probably ate up fuel too, even with extra propellent tanks).

Even the Dendrobium, all you actually see are the weapon racks being replaced (and Kou injecting himself with adrenaline or something to keep himself going), but not actually being refueled or anything that I could tell.

Perhaps the most famous instance of running out of propellant in UC Gundam is the 0083 colony pursuit, during which the EF fleet that launched form Solomon is tricked and basically every ship runs out of propellant while in pursuit of the hijacked colony, forcing them to wait until supply ships arrive to refuel them.

In the 0081 OVA we see how several GMs dock on the underside of a Salamis and the mechanics connect several cables to them, some of which must have been for refueling. When their ship comes under attack by Bigros, the GMs can't launch since they are still connected to the ship, leading to their demise.

A not so clear example would be the MA-05Ad Big Rang from MS Igloo, which has the capacity to resupply the Oggo Mobile Pods in the field, which in the OVA is seen to include provide ammo, spare weapons and even repairs, but most likely also includes refueling.

[Henyo]

there's another question that i think we need to get an answer to:
how long can the pilot control the funnels. this is how they are controlled right?
directly linked or being fed with the pilots newtype powers(or was it brain waves something?)
or are there funnels that function more like homing missiles?