Settling an argument: G04 and G05 multi-use or space only?

[toysdream]

First up, I should note that it's nice to have a chance to dig into the technical minutiae of these 'bots. Thanks for nerding out with me!

Those two paragraphs seem a bit contradicting considering that Gundam Century gives the MS-09 and MS-09R full weights of 183.8 and 171.6 tons respectively (more than twice the 80 tons of other soruces), not to mention that the same source says that a Z'gok is heavier than a Gogg

No, Gundam Century's specs definitely aren't compatible with the other sources - all I'm saying is that Gundam Century is at least internally consistent.

As far as the weight trends for the Dom series, the original consensus was that the Dom and Rick Dom both weighed 90 tons (Gundam Century being the main exception). Zeta Gundam Part 3 and Entertainment Bible 1 introduced new full weights of 81.8 tons for the Dom and 78.6 tons for the Rick Dom. More recently, the HG-UC kit manuals and the new Entertainment Bible reduced the Dom's full weight to 79.9 tons, which almost suggests that somebody decided all these Dom types ought to weigh less than 80 tons.

Regarding MSV-R, while it does gives Dozle's Rick Dom an empty weight of 63.7 tons, it also gives two grounds use Dom variants higher empty weights:

I think MSV-R is probably working on the assumption that all Dom types have similarly high base weights. I've seen a few sources listing 62.6 tons as the base weight for the Rick Dom as well; for example, the new MS Encyclopedia lists this as the base weight for Gato's Rick Dom. I don't think there's really an underlying technical explanation for all of this - more likely the people compiling the specs for these publications don't really care which weight specs go where.

Anyways, MSV-R also doubles down on the high base weights associated with the Gelgoog Cannon and High Mobility Type, whose base weights are well over 50 tons. On the whole the MSV-R specs indicate that all Zeon mobile suits are pretty heavy. Every Zeon mobile suit in the MSV-R series has a base weight of more than 50 tons.

As for the MS-09G Dwadge, I do have an example showing how the a MS gets upgraded over the years and has its weight reduced as a result:

MS-08TX (U.C. 0079) - 59.4 tons
MS-08TX/S (U.C. 0096) - 52.4 tons (scroll down to the bottom)

Yep, there's definitely a weight reduction associated with new armor materials and high-tech generator replacements. The situation of the Efreet is a little complicated, since the original Cross Dimension sources disagreed about whether its base weight was 50.4 or 59.4 tons; the Efreet Kai from Blue Destiny is definitely 59.4t, but it's unclear whether it's supposed to have exactly the same base weight as the original Efreet, or 9 tons higher.

Still, a seven-ton weight reduction for a new generator and armor seems reasonable enough based on comparisons with other upgraded mobile suits. But that's a lot more modest than the 19-ton difference between the Dowadge and the original Dom; assuming the ZZ specs are accurate, there must be other factors at work here.

Let me show another example; the case of the high mobility Zakus and their retconned empty weights:

Zaku weight specs are also a real mess right now. Entertainment Bible 1 put the F type's base weight at 58.1 tons and the J type at 49.9 tons (a figure that was later copypasted into the specs of MS-06F2). Nowadays most sources list the exact same specs for both the F and J types, and there's a definite consensus that the J type has a base weight of 56.2 tons. The MSV-R specs for the F and FS types keep flipping back and forth, but about half the time they settle on 58.1 tons as per Entertainment Bible 1. So going by recent publications, it seems like at most the J type shaves two tons off the F type's base weight.

The specs for the MS-06R series keep flipping, too. Entertainment Bible 1 listed 61.8 tons for the R-1A type; Hobby Japan's Gundam Mechanics books repeated this and set the base weight of the R-2, which is supposed to use new lightweight materials, at 49.5 tons. Later on, the MS Encyclopedia changed these weights to 56.8t and 58.2t respectively, but it doesn't seem to have stuck, and the latest MS Encyclopedia has reverted completely to the EB1/Gundam Mechanics specs.

At this point, based on the latest MS Encyclopedia and the MSV-R series, the base weights of the MS-06 series appear to be as follows:

MS-06A: 56.2t
MS-06F: 58.1t (or 56.2t)
MS-06FS: 58.1t
MS-06G: 58.1t
MS-06J: 56.2t
MS-06S: 56.2t
MS-06R-1A: 61.8t (or 56.8t)
MS-06R-2: 49.5t

Which actually doesn't seem too unreasonable. The A, J, and S types trim off about two tons worth of shield, space equipment, and safety gear respectively; the G type adds that back on with its leg thrusters; the R-1A is about 5.5 tons heavier than the S type; the R-2 is exactly 20% lighter than the R-1A thanks to its amazing new materials. (Presumably the same materials are used in the F2 type and the Gelgoog series.)

Last, but not least, is the case of the MS-06Z, which the Mobile Suit Gundam Side Story Missing Link Archives gives a retconned base weight of 43.8 tons, far below the 60.4 tons from the original MSV profile. This machine essentially has the same proportions as a Dom type and was also developed late in the war, so it does serve as a good reference point for other space-use heavy-type MS introduced late in the war.

I dunno, this one in particular just seems like a typo in the latest MS Encyclopedia. They mixed up a bunch of the MSV specs - it's a complete copyediting disaster - and the MS-06Z seems to have somehow walked away with the Rick Dom's old base weight.

The new MS Encyclopedia, incidentally, also lists the Rick Dom's base weight as 48.3t instead of the previous 43.8t. Given the poor quality control in the rest of the book, I honestly don't know if that's a deliberate change or just another typo, but in any case it'll probably spread as other publications robotically copy-and-paste their specs from the MS Encyclopedia.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

Unicorn pretty much confirmed that do funnels work under gravity, however are quite unstable and difficult to aim: when Marida is fighting the Rezels in Industrial 7, she tries to finish a crippled Rezel that fell to the ground with her funnels, but these are unable to stabilize so close to the ground and she ends up accidentally hitting the Rezel's generator, to her own surprise.

On the other hand, we have the Shamblo, which uses those reflector bits kept airborne using propellers, which seems to solve the stability issue.

This is much different from real gravity.
Gravity gives a constant force acting on any object even without contact, thus if you need to stay airbourne, you need to constantly apply thrust, which is quite hard for such small objects as funnels since they won't have enough propellant to do so.
On the other hand, inside a space colony, the "gravity" is from spinning the colony itself, and an Island 3 type colony wall velocity relative to the centre is about 160~170m/s, meaning once you leave the ground and accelerate up to 160~170m/s, you are stationery relative to the colony, thus will not hit the ground at all, and stay in the air, for at least long enough until the air drags it to more inline with the wall's speed.
When up, you don't need that much thrust to stay up, you will just be 160~170m/s relative to the ground, but the higher up you are, the less people will notice the difference, and it would be really reasonable to assume the funnels can operate and shoot at a range of about 3~4km, more than the radius of a Island 3, thus funnels will be almost fully operational in a colony(as long as the pilot is aware of the physics, which is highly likely case), but will not operate(at least for long) in Earth's atmosphere.

The reflector bits at least got a design that is like a helicopter, obviously designed for atmospheric use, which most other bits and funnels are not.(The Psyco Mk-II's reflector bit is arguably working in similar way)

[bumsdeclaf]

actually its much simpler than you put it. "Gravity" in a colony is due to centripetal force of it rotating. In order to remain airborn in a colony the easiest thing to do is to go to the center of it. The closer you are to the center of rotation the less centripetal force there will be. The center of a colony has no "gravity".

[Gelgoog Jager]

But that is exactly my point: when fighting close to the center of the colony, Marida can perfectly control her funnels to destroy MS without blowing their engines.

But in this particular scene we have one Rezel Commander Type that has lost one leg fall to the city, crashing into a building on the colony wall, from which it keeps firing at Marida. Marida defeats a couple more Rezels before sending her funnels to the colony wall to attack the downed Rezel and at this point we can see that the funnels are unable to stay fixed in place since they are basically at ground/wall level, where the colony's gravity do should affect them and ultimately seem to be the reason she ends up hitting the Rezel's reactor, which ends up opening a huge hole in the colony's wall.

[MythSearcher]

But that is exactly my point: when fighting close to the center of the colony, Marida can perfectly control her funnels to destroy MS without blowing their engines.

But in this particular scene we have one Rezel Commander Type that has lost one leg fall to the city, crashing into a building on the colony wall, from which it keeps firing at Marida. Marida defeats a couple more Rezels before sending her funnels to the colony wall to attack the downed Rezel and at this point we can see that the funnels are unable to stay fixed in place since they are basically at ground/wall level, where the colony's gravity do should affect them and ultimately seem to be the reason she ends up hitting the Rezel's reactor, which ends up opening a huge hole in the colony's wall.

That is likely due to the relative velocity the walls are giving the funnels.
Marida is likely to know the physics(if not, she can't even control the funnels to get to speed with the walls), but the funnels simply can't give enough thrust to catch up AND maintain enough stability to aim.