[UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

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TDR-10M Thunderbolt
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[UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

Recently I have been both watching ZZ Gundam (fairly early in) and reading through several excellent threads here on MS specs (For those curious, a search for 'MS technical data' in this thread - http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16078 - brings up the posts in question)... and am left with a headscratcher: Just how much of a leap in performance does one see from era to era?

Unicorn brings this up a lot, trotting out all kinds of MS from 0079, 0087, 0088, and 0093 in 0096 but it only briefly explores the idea. How do things like the Dreissen, Schuzrum Dias, and Doven Wolf compare to 0093's Geara Doga or Jegan? Or even 0096's ReZEL and Geara Zulu? Equal? Superior? Inferior? What do those answers tell us about a faction's decision to go with a new machine (besides "they switched because Bandai wanted a new toy line to sell that year", which is of course the overriding real-world concern)? Going by just spec numbers is little help, since we know they've been pretty inconsistent on those over the years.

Would it be plausible for a pilot to refuse to transfer to a 0093 or 0096 production MS on the basis their, say... 0087 or 0088 unit is superior to it? (Presuming logistics, their commander, etc. allow them to do this) Just based on how some units are portrayed in the shows, I'd think that most people riding in ZZ-era Zeon designs would be downgrading by moving to a Geara Doga or Zulu, but maybe I'm missing something. You could probably make similar comparisons to a few of the Federation's mass production units, but at least in those cases historical/lore text covers the discrepancy by outright saying 'X replaced Y and here is why even if the spec numbers don't back that up.'

Post Edited on 6-24-2014 - Upon re-reading my post, some elements came close to being a 'versus' thread when I'm really trying to look at very broad trends in performance by era. I've reworded some sections to be more generalized.
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

Availability might be an issue, especially considering the limited manufacturing options available to these Zeon factions (compared to the Feds, anyways). I could see many of the ZZ-era machines being so specialized and so rare that they couldn't just be re-used to form a combat force; instead of building more, the later factions just chose designs that were easier to mass produce for the core of their forces and used the more specialized stuff where they could.
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

That's an interesting thought. I can kind of see Char or Full Frontal looking at their pilots, looking at the budget available for new machines, and deciding: "You know what? You guys don't need eighteen million guns like the Doven Wolf has. You're going to get by with one gun plus some disposable one-shots. Enjoy your new Geara Doga."

It would seem to imply some degree of performance downgrade in mass production models from 0087-0088 to 0093-0096, but for the jobs they need those units to do it might be sufficient.
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

It always seemed to me that the Axis Zeon hugely over-specialised their MS (the Zssa comes to mind, and the genuinely general-purpose models were either too weak (Gaza series) or too rare (Zaku III). Presumably, this was to compensate for their severe (anticipated) numerical inferiority against the Federation Space Force, although by the time they got there the Gryps War was in full swing, and considerably downsizing their expected opposition; oops.

The MS of 0093-0096, especially on the Neo-Zeon side, were the total opposite, of course; general-use models that any half-competent pilot who made their way to Sweetwater could use effectively in battle, as they didn't have an over-abundance of gimmicks or weapon types to worry about.

Now, as for whether one or the other of those is better... that comes down to the person in the cockpit. A veteran Sleeves pilot who's been operating their Dreissen for eight years, and knows its quirks and whatnot inside-out, would probably be better staying in the linear seat of that machine, than swapping it for a Geara Doga (or Zulu), even if the latter is shiner and newer. On the other hand, a newbie from Palau would probably be better-placed in the Geara type.

That's the Zeon side of things; on the Federation side, with their base-model MS generally being much less specialised, the line between sticking in a GM III or upgrading to a Jegan might be rather more blurred. Unless, of course, the pilot is in a prototype (such as the Byarlant Custom, or a specialised machine (Guncannon DT anyone?); then it gets a bit less obvious, unless they upgrade to another machine on that grade, like the Jesta.

Your mileage may vary, of course, but that's my view :roll:
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

IIRC Neo Zeon in 0090s contracts Anaheim to manufacture their MSs rather than making their own. Does Anaheim produces Neo Zeon MS designed by Neo Zeon, or co-developed with Neo Zeon though?
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

If they do, nothing in the animated versions of Char's Counterattack and Gundam Unicorn seems to state this outright. In absence of evidence to prove Anaheim begins contract production of Dreissen, Zaku III, Doven Wolf, etc... it is probably best to presume they don't, or if they do it's in incredibly tiny numbers.

The closest link I know of to that would be the relation of the Doven Wolf leading to the Silver Bullet.
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

When CCA came out, I think the implication was that Anaheim helped Char's Neo Zeon build the Jagd Doga and Sazabi, since they didn't have the capability to do that on their own. (If I recall correctly, the Beltorchika Children novel specifically tells us that Anaheim produced the Nightingale and Psycho Doga at Granada, and the Nu Gundam at Von Braun, so they were serving both sides on opposite sides of the moon.)

Unicorn takes this a step further by saying that Anaheim developed and manufactured the Geara Zulu as well, so at this point they're supplying Neo Zeon with mass-produced mobile suits too. I think the current party line is that the Geara Doga was made by Neo Zeon and AE just created the Zulu as a low-cost replacement, but I'll go double-check. There's obviously a lot we don't really know about Neo Zeon mobile suit development!

EDIT: While the HG-UC Geara Doga kit manual just says that Anaheim developed its successor, i.e. the Geara Zulu, the more recent Master Grade Geara Doga manual claims that the original Gryps Conflict-era machine on which the Geara Doga was based was redesigned at Anaheim's Granada factory to make it more suitable for production. It goes on to add that "It's rumored that AE went on to independently develop a successor to this machine," which rather makes it sound like Anaheim created the Geara Zulu without any direct Neo Zeon involvement!

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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

Regarding the generational changes between the Gryps Conflict/First Neo Zeon War to the Second Neo Zeon War/Laplace Conflict, one of the main changes is that during the 0080's most factions moved from using Titanium Ceramic Composite armor to Gundarium Gamma for their mass production MS, but by the 0090's, TCC becomes the standard material of mass produced MS again. There are some possible explanations for this:

In the case of the EF, we could argue that in general the EF didn't adopt the mass production of MS using GG, and that instead this was only adopted by the Titans themselves. This could be due to a cost issue, which could be reflected on the fact that the AEUG's most mass produced MS was the Nemo using inferior, but also cheaper, Gundarium Beta. In Axis/Neo Zeon case, we coudl consider that as the ones that came up with GG, they are the ones that had the largest amount of the material available. Also, unlike other Zeon remnant groups, Axis/Neo Zeon do seemed to have plenty of resources available, including money (gold).

Taking this into consideration, we can assume that the EF simply stuck to using TCC for most of the MS, but now also extendign to special forces groups. By the way, it does look that by U.C. 0093, the Jegan remains a exclusive MS to special ops groups, including Londo Bell, Ecoas and the General Revil forces, but are visibly absent fromt he battles at Dakar and Torrington.

In the case of the 2nd Neo Zeon and the Sleeves, their resources are quite diminished, at least comapred to Axis/1st Neo Zeon, which could explain why the Geara Doga might have been a design from the later group that ahd to be modified to ease mass production.

Moving on, another thing we can observe in later UC series is that older MS can be upgraded with new technologies, such as in the case of leftover OYW units upgraded with panoramic monitor and linear seats. A specialzied high performance unit could therefore be easily on the same tier, or even higher, than newer MS once such systems have been upgraded.

A direct example would be the Gallus J & Zaku III compared to the Geara Doga: both AMX units have higher thruster and generator output than the AMS-119, which basically leave some internal improvements such as better cockpit and or longer range sensor as the main imrpovement so the Geara Doga. That being said, the fact that the royal guard version of the Geara Zulu seems to owe its large increase of mobility to the Geara Doga backpack do raises the question of whether or not the specs from CCA are correct. The low weight of CCA units also seems odd for units using TCC armor, specially compared to units from the Gryps Conflict.
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

Gelgoog Jager wrote:By the way, it does look that by U.C. 0093, the Jegan remains a exclusive MS to special ops groups, including Londo Bell, Ecoas and the General Revil forces, but are visibly absent fromt he battles at Dakar and Torrington.
Just wanted to pick up on this point, as regards Federation MS deployment in UC 0096.

The only time we see Jegan types on Earth in 0096 is in the vicinity of the Cheyenne Mountain Complex (carrying a Marasai beam rifle, no less); given its position as control centre for the Gryps II colony laser, we can only assume it remains a major strategic command post for the Federation Forces, especially as the other MS in the local garrison are Zeta Plus A1 types and brand-new Gustav Karl models. The garrisons of the EFGF at Dakar and Torrington are relying on vintage models from previous wars, of course, although they do still give a pretty decent account of themselves against the Zeon Remnants.

To me, this doesn't so much suggest that the Jegan is only in the hands of special-operations groups, so much as the Earth Federation Ground Force is receiving a fairly mediocre share of the defence budget, with the vast majority being pumped into the Space Force - which can afford to start widespread deployment of the Jegan and variants, repair Gryps II, deploy the General Revil, develop the Loto for ECOAS, et cetera and so on. This does make sense, given that the main threats to the Federation come from the Sides - it's similar to how Britain historically spent its defence budget on a large and powerful Royal Navy, to the detriment of the Army; if potential threats come from overseas, better to stop them ever reaching your shore.

It's also pretty realistic, in its way: even though decade-old mobile suit designs are (by UC standards) more-or-less obsolete, they don't have to be scrapped, but can be redeployed to areas were the Federation expects not to face state-of-the-art opposition. As such, from what we've seen, modern MS deployment on Earth is limited to bases of strategic military importance - which Dakar apparently isn't, and Torrington certainly isn't.
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

Dendrobium Stamen wrote:As such, from what we've seen, modern MS deployment on Earth is limited to bases of strategic military importance - which Dakar apparently isn't, and Torrington certainly isn't.
Which is kind of weird considering Torrington is where the Federation stores a chunk of its nukes. Unless the Delaz debacle made them relocate them all to Luna II...where Char subsequently steals them...lol.

And rather than start a completely new thread on it, as this one seems to fit the topic, I do wonder, when it comes to more high-end prototypes (to various degrees), how much later those prototypes could remain decent against more modern MS/MA.

Like the Neue Ziel being so advanced, it SEEMS like, with a good pilot, it might be able to last well into CCA and Unicorn, or even beyond.

Or, when it comes to "regular" Mobile Suits, stuff like the Zeta Gundam or the F91. The Zeta having several attempts made to mass produce it over the years with things like the failed Mass Production Type Zeta Gundam, the Zeta Plus series, the Re-GZ and such makes me wonder how the original would've held up during CCA and Unicorn (or even the ZZ), while the F91 had limited mass production and still performed quite well even 10 years later against the more modern Crossbone Gundam X-1.
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

We did get a glimpse of a regular space only EF unit, which escorts the Columbus Kai ship resupplying the Nahel Argama. All we can see from it is that it includes an Irish class ship and 2x GM III:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... dGMIII.jpg

At this time I'm still more inclined to think that the Jegan has still not been mass produced for use by the EF regular forces:

The ones that we see on Earth are also D-type Jegans, and from F91 we know that the base Jegan for the mass production model (namely the RGM-89J normal type Jegan) is the A-type Jegan.

At most, the A2-Types deployed by the General Revil may be the first batch of a possible mass production version of the Jegan, which by all looks is still not available to regular forces. The D-type and its variants do are definitely special forces only units.

Therefore by U.C. 0096 it's more likely that the mainstay MS of the regular EF forces is still the GM III, though at least in space they are now equipped with Jegan shields as seen in episode 2.
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote: And rather than start a completely new thread on it, as this one seems to fit the topic, I do wonder, when it comes to more high-end prototypes (to various degrees), how much later those prototypes could remain decent against more modern MS/MA.

Like the Neue Ziel being so advanced, it SEEMS like, with a good pilot, it might be able to last well into CCA and Unicorn, or even beyond.

Or, when it comes to "regular" Mobile Suits, stuff like the Zeta Gundam or the F91. The Zeta having several attempts made to mass produce it over the years with things like the failed Mass Production Type Zeta Gundam, the Zeta Plus series, the Re-GZ and such makes me wonder how the original would've held up during CCA and Unicorn (or even the ZZ), while the F91 had limited mass production and still performed quite well even 10 years later against the more modern Crossbone Gundam X-1.
I've wondered the same, and wondered also if the Re-gz was actually inferior or superior to the Zeta Gundam. If near equal, I think Amuro showed off what it could do (defend against two vastly superior machines).

With the ZZ Gundam I can't help but think it would have performed very well in UC 0093, especially its FA form. Which makes me wonder why they didn't try to mass produce it instead of the Zeta. Get rid of the complicated core block system and it seems like a powerful machine to bolster the EFs forces.

And another question (correct me if this veers off topic), is how does the 1st Neo Zeon afford such powerful machines such as the Doven Wolf? How did Axis acquire such great funding?
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

InjuredPelican wrote:I've wondered the same, and wondered also if the Re-gz was actually inferior or superior to the Zeta Gundam. If near equal, I think Amuro showed off what it could do (defend against two vastly superior machines).

With the ZZ Gundam I can't help but think it would have performed very well in UC 0093, especially its FA form. Which makes me wonder why they didn't try to mass produce it instead of the Zeta. Get rid of the complicated core block system and it seems like a powerful machine to bolster the EFs forces.

And another question (correct me if this veers off topic), is how does the 1st Neo Zeon afford such powerful machines such as the Doven Wolf? How did Axis acquire such great funding?
The Re-GZ, in terms of paper specs, is slightly inferior overall from what I'm reading. The only thing the Re-GZ seeming to have over the Zeta being better maneuverability (with over double the vernier thrusters/apogee motors of the Zeta, but the Zeta having more thruster power for more speed) and more numerous weaponry. The downside, however, being that most of the Re-GZ's extra weapons are mounted on the Back Weapon System (which are only usable in Waverider Mode and ditched when it transforms most of the time) with only vulcans, a few grenade launchers on its arms and hips, and a couple beam sabers for its Mobile Suit mode whereas the Zeta Gundam can use most of its (main) weapons in either mode (at least its beam rifle, hyper mega launcher, and two beam sabers as fixed beam cannons).

The Re-GZ and Jagd Doga seem almost equal overall, with the Jagd Doga's advantage being a Newtype unit with Funnels, of course, but obviously Amuro has plenty of experience with Newtype opponents so him being the Re-GZ's pilot at the time almost negates that advantage, so Amuro's own skill ultimately bests Gyunei. The Sazabi, however, is clearly superior and Char was holding back, wanting to battle Amuro in a fair fight.

In terms of the ZZ, they did try to mass produce it at least in MSV (unofficial).

As for Neo Zeon and finances, at least that one moment in CCA shows they have a lot of gold (buying the entirety of Axis with a lot of it).
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote: The Re-GZ and Jagd Doga seem almost equal overall, with the Jagd Doga's advantage being a Newtype unit with Funnels, of course, but obviously Amuro has plenty of experience with Newtype opponents so him being the Re-GZ's pilot at the time almost negates that advantage, so Amuro's own skill ultimately bests Gyunei. The Sazabi, however, is clearly superior and Char was holding back, wanting to battle Amuro in a fair fight.
Right, definitely Char was wanting the "ultimate duel" (that Amuro never cared about...).
HalfDemonInuyasha wrote: In terms of the ZZ, they did try to mass produce it at least in MSV (unofficial).
Oh, would be nice to see something like that in an animation someday (with out the awful color scheme, of course. What is with those Okawara concept color schemes??).
HalfDemonInuyasha wrote: As for Neo Zeon and finances, at least that one moment in CCA shows they have a lot of gold (buying the entirety of Axis with a lot of it).
Just like all that Nazi gold floating around... It'll be interesting if someday there's an antagonist side in Gundam that is actually poorly equipped military rather than a largely comparable one. Somehow seems like how it should work out when considering just how massive the EFF is. Although, now that I think about it, Crossbone's enemy was sort of like that, at least in the beginning...
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Re: [UC Gundam] Performance Between Eras

Regarding Neo Zeon's finances, I suspect that Gundarium Gamma may be involved somehow: Axis/1st Neo Zeon is the one that developed the material in the first place and all their mass produced units use it, yet after their defeat, GG becomes a rarely used material reserved only for hi spec prototypes.

As for the Zeon gold, if even Cima Garahau has her gold stash to pay for the Val Varo, despite being the escape goat for the gassing of island Iffish, it doesn't seem so far fetched for the legitimate group taking care if Minerva to have vast reserves of their own.
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