Rick Dias II Weapons?

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TDR-10M Thunderbolt
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Rick Dias II Weapons?

Sorry to post a topic on a fairly vague thing, but I'm seeing contradictory info out there and trying to figure out what's most likely to be correct. I'd like to ask about the MSA-099-2 Rick Dias II as seen in Z-MSV and a few video games.

MAHQ Link: http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/z-msv/msa-099-2.htm

MAHQ claims it's armed with a beam saber and a two-barrel beam gun (rated at 4.8 MW... is this per barrel, or combined total to make each barrel 2.4 MW?). Just those two things. Gundam Wikia (yeah, I know) claims those two and 55mm Vulcan Phalanx but doesn't have a source. Their gallery for the unit does include a little 'biography' of it from a video game, likely one of the Giren's series titles, but the Japanese write-up primarily talks about its tech-lineage relating to the Schuzrum Dias. What little it discusses of weapons seems to be limited to the beam gun and makes no mention of anything else insofar as I can tell.

So here's what I want to ask: What does it really have? I'm willing to accept weapon lists from the Giren's games as an answer, and understand that 'only what is animated is truly official' per some of Mark's interesting looks at Gundam and how true/official various sources are... but in this case side materials are the only real reference I can imagine exists.

Is it just the dual-barrel beam gun plus a beam saber, or does it definitely and demonstrably have other stuff?
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Evex
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

Well the Rick Dias II is meant to be a successor unit to the rick dias. Looking at the image you mentioned on Gundam Wiki. I'm assuming that the double beam gun is what the suit is holding, which looks like it could serve as an early prototype to the Double Zeta's double beam rifle. I'm assuming due to the Schruzum Dias profile on MAHQ that it can carry the same armaments as the regular rick dias. This means its beam guns and clay bazooka. Its a bit difficult to say whether or not the suit has the phalanx AMS (anti-missile system) due to the fact the head is different from both other dias models.

Okay just read over the technical history of the suit on MAHQ. The two barrel beam gun is refereed to as a two barrel mega beam gun, which is the weapon you see in its hand. Due to its name and shape I'm convinced this is an early version of Double Zeta's double beam rifle. This replaced the beam guns the rick dias, and schruzum dias use. I would say its armaments are the beam saber, two barrel mega beam gun which are listed, but I would also say its capable of using the rick dias clay bazooka as well. Still can't tell if it has the anti missile guns due to the head.
TDR-10M Thunderbolt
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

That certainly sounds reasonable. Thank you for offering your thoughts, Evex! I guess at this point the only other sources that could really help narrow this down further would be the G Generation and/or Giren's games if they produce an explicit weapon list. That may be a case of 'you have fun researching that on your own, buddy.'
Xenosynth
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

Oh snap, questions that can be answered by games! Sorry, only just noticed the question, and I had to get to the point I could research the Rick Dias II (Which is REALLY powerful in this game.)

According to Gihren's Greed: Axis no Yabou V AND SD Gundam G Gen Portable:
Rick Dias II:
Mega Beam Gun (Double Barrel)
Beam Saber

That's... literally all it has on the weapons. There's no other info in the profiles, just mentioning something about the binders and the Schuzrum Dias, no mention of the phalanx vulcans or any other utility.

Sadly it doesn't appear in too many other games (Since Z-MSV gets sadly shafted a lot from games, even ones that are MSV heavy), so I think that really this is all we have to go on. There's no proof of it having any weapons besides those two.
TDR-10M Thunderbolt
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

Wow, that's... pretty limited, I'd think they'd give it more since it doesn't carry a shield. So it seems that Gundam Wikia users were making stuff up with no basis for this? Well at least now I know.

You mean to tell me you played through parts of both of those games to check this out, though? Thank you, Xenosynth!
Xenosynth
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

No problem! Gundam games are my thing. SD Gundam G Gen Portable I already had the profile unlocked and so I could check that. With Gihren's Greed, I've played it so much that it didn't take that long either. If you have any other question that is game related/can be answered through a game, don't hesitate to ask! I'm pretty much always online in some capacity because of college summer break, and because no businesses respond to my applications.

And yeah, the Rick Dom II is really powerful, especially in Gihren's Greed, but in terms of appearance, it's relatively bare bones. You actually unlock almost every other Z-MSV machine before it, as well as the ZZ and other stuff that well, frankly surprised me.
TDR-10M Thunderbolt
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

I'm just kind of headscratching on the loadout, though. Why would they go from something whose gimmick was 'give up a shield in favor of more weapons, including a powerful bazooka', to... having just two weapons? Even if a mega beam gun is a pretty good weapon, it seems like it ought to have something more. They changed a heavy attack unit into basically a 'dogfighting superiority' machine and that seems like something they could have just upgraded the Nemo for far more easily.

I'll have to chalk that one up to being yet another bizarre choice by the AEUG and Anaheim Electronics during that era; they made no shortage of strange decisions at the time.

Anyway, this is good stuff. That was the last Dias-lineage unit I didn't have much info on (you'd be surprised how easy it is to find data on comparable units like the Rick Dias S and Super Dias, for example) and now I know what's up. I appreciate it!
toysdream
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

I don't see why the Rick Dias II wouldn't have head vulcans. I checked the issue of B-CLUB where it originally appeared, and although it doesn't explicitly mention vulcans anywhere, there's a labeled diagram where the forehead part is labeled as "head cover" which is the same term used for the Rick Dias's opening forehead hatch.

As far as other info, the MAHQ profile seems a bit made-up and the Wikia just copy-pasted the MAHQ profile. Let's go to some primary sources.

From the original B-CLUB profile:
The RMS-099 Rick Dias, which became the basis for the Hyaku Shiki and the Zeta Gundam which gave the AEUG the upper hand in the conflict, could properly be called the AEUG's masterpiece mobile suit. Anaheim Electronics, which developed this machine, set out to create an improved model to match the performance of more advanced mobile suits. This was because the construction of the Rick Dias, whose cockpit was installed in its head, made it easy to enhance the output of its generator systems.

Because it was no longer necessary to use a Federation development code for camouflage, this machine was developed as the MSA-099-II. However, since its development ended with the completion of a single prototype unit, it was never introduced into combat. The twin mega beam gun which was prepared as its weapon was the prototype for the ZZ Gundam's mega beam rifle.
The writeup in the original version of the MS Encyclopedia was pretty minimal:
An improved model of the RMS-099. Unlike the RMS-099B, in which only the binders are replaced, each part of the machine is dramatically improved.
They used pretty much the same description in G Generation F, too. But the one in Data Collection 5 was more illuminating:
An improved model of the Rick Dias. Each part of the machine is dramatically improved, based on operating data from machines like the Dijeh.
Which places this machine, timing-wise, in between the Dijeh and the ZZ.

Finally, there's a lengthy writeup from a 2005 issue of Hobby Japan, as part of a series of Zeta MSV features.
The RMS-099 Rick Dias, the first mobile suit developed by the AEUG, was a well-balanced masterpiece of a machine. The use of Gundarium Gamma also reduced its weight and gave it relatively high expandability. Thus several plans were created to improve and enhance the Rick Dias to keep up with increases in mobile suit performance. Some of these involved enhancing its back units, such as the RMS-099B Sturm Dias which aimed to increase its firepower by installing mega particle cannons in the backpack binders, or the RMS-099S Super Dias which was based on the concept established by the RX-178 + FXA-05D of attaching a support unit to the mobile suit. The MSA-099-2 Rick Dias II, though, was a renewal model intended to maintain the concept of the original machine while improving all of its equipment. In addition to higher output binders, thrusters were added to the backpack and legs, giving it far higher mobility than the RMS-099. It could also use a newly developed twin mega beam gun (whose concept was inherited by the MSZ-010) and various other weapons, starting with those used by the RMS-099, so it had sufficient firepower as well. But although this machine demonstrated high performance, its construction costs were high compared to those of the RMS-099, and only a few pilots could use it. Thus construction ended with one prototype machine, and according to official records it appears that this first prototype unit was never used in combat.
-- Mark
TDR-10M Thunderbolt
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

Whoa. That's a lot of neat info there. Thanks! I think this pretty well addresses all my questions.

This does however paint a very bad picture of the AEUG's money management from late 0087 onward. They went to the trouble of having the Rick Dias II developed, possibly the Rick Dias S and Super Dias too, then fielded none of those because they were more interested in the Hyaku Shiki Kai MP?

...Which they also had developed but didn't do much with in the end, instead going back to Nemos?

They strike me as more than a little silly in how they make these decisions.
toysdream
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

The bit about the Hyaku Shiki Kai doesn't appear in any of the Japanese sources as far as I can tell, and I think I just posted all of them. Probably MAHQ made it up and then the Wikia stole it.

The Hobby Japan writeup seems to be the only Japanese source with a reason for why the development was canceled.

-- Mark
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

Huh. Kind of amazing how disinformation can spread like that.

I do have one last tiny question; what about the power ratings on the mega beam gun? The specs (are those made up too?) rate it at 4.8 MW; would I be right in guessing that's per barrel? If it's 4.8 total, that's only a minor step up from the original Rick Dias' beam pistols which were rated at 2.2 MW apiece; it'd seem like you could just tape the guns together to get the same effect. ...Which I seem to recall someone did in Build Fighters.

4.8 x2 for a total of 9.6 MW output makes a lot more sense to me, but you never know.
toysdream
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

On the disinformation: I guess this kind of situation plays to everyone's weaknesses. In MAHQ's case, there was a tendency in the past to make things up to flesh out the profiles, and there's no systematic mechanism for checking and correcting them. In the Gundam Wikia's case, they tend to just copy-and-paste stuff from other websites like MAHQ, so there's no quality control there either. Another example would be the claim that it takes a really long time for the Dolos to launch all its mobile suits, a myth that originated on MAHQ and is easily disproved by simply looking at the animation.

As for the Rick Dias's mega beam gun: The original profile in B-CLUB lists this as 二連メガ・ビームガン試作型(出力4.8MW) - that is, "twin mega beam gun prototype (output 4.8 MW)". As written, that does sound like a combined output, but the listed number is probably less important than the idea that it's supposed to be a powerful weapon.

-- Mark
RheinJie
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

The MSA-099-2 Rick Dias II is an upgraded version of the RMS-099 Rick Dias. Its combat abilities are much the same as its predecessor except that the Rick Dias II has more thrusters and a superior propulsion system granting it greater speed and maneuverability than the Rick Dias, as well as a slightly improved powerplant. Each part of the machine is dramatically improved, based on operating data from machines like the Dijeh.

Mod Edit: Please don't necrobump a thread by pasting directly from Gundam Wiki's Rick Dias II page.
~ Kenji
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

It seems that in Gundam Build Fighters someone tried to depict that weapon:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... 755561.jpg

Assumign this depiction might be accurate, I think it's output would be 2.4 MW per barrel, for a total of 4.8 MW, given that the beam pistol of the Rick Dias is rated at 2.2 MW. Given that the weapon seems to basically be two beam pistol's together, such output sounds about right.

If we were to assume the other scenario, that the output is 4.8 MW per barrel for a total of 9.6 MW, it would certainly be closer to the ZZ's own double beam rifle, which has an output of 10.6 MW per barrel for a total of 21.2. In such case such version of the double beam gun would more likely be something closer to:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:Rdias2.png

Still, it would seem to be a weapon fo about the same size as the ZZ's with less than half the firepower.

My own take on the matter is that given the use of the word "beam gun" rather than "beam rifle" for the Rick Dias II weapon, the smaller weapon seems the more likely possibility, since beam gun seems more commonly associated with smaller shorter range beam weapons. The 2006 MS Encyclopedia also uses the same kanji of ビーム・ガン for the Rick Dias II weapon as for the RGM-79GS's beam gun.

All that being said, there's no guarantee that the weapon used in Gundam Build Fighters is the actual twin mega beam gun of the Rick Dias II, but at least it's more likely that whatever the actual weapon is like to be more similar to that version than the much larger weapon depicted on Gihren's Greed.
toysdream
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

Nah, that thing in Build Fighters is literally just two beam pistols strapped together. The Rick Dias II's mega beam gun looks nothing like that - and it's handheld, too.

For some reason, I never noticed that the Rick Dias II's weapon isn't shown in the line art. I can't even find images of it on Google! But it's shown as part of the scratch-built model in B-CLUB issue 7. From the looks of it, they took the barrels of the ZZ's beam rifle, stuck them together, and built a box with a hand grip around the back end. The scratch-built model is 1/100 scale, and I'm pretty sure those are the barrels from the old 1/100 ZZ Gundam kit...

-- Mark
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

So, the one from Gihren's Greed do is a close match?:

http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 1023014251
toysdream
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

Not really - the entire weapon is basically the size of the ZZ's two barrels strapped together, without an additional stock section attached to the end. There's a box that encloses the rear half of the barrels, and a hand grip (and scope) at the front end of that box, so the hand grip ends up at the midpoint of the weapon. Tough to describe, but I'm trying to avoid having to scan the photo. :-)

The only modern image that actually shows this weapon accurately is the Gundam War card. I think they drew it a little small, but it's basically accurate otherwise.

http://auction.rakuten.co.jp/item/10650816/a/10001703/

-- Mark
Xenosynth
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

Oh wow, the Gundam war card depiction there I hadn't actually seen, that's definitely a different depiction than I am used to, especially the fact that the barrel is stacked like that. I take it the actual B-Club model one is also a vertically stacked barrel too?
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

That weapon might actually be based on the RGM-79SC's obscure 2-barrel beam gun, which also has two barrels vertically stacked. You can see it attached to the GM Sniper Custom's left leg on this image:

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:RGM-79SC.jpeg
toysdream
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Re: Rick Dias II Weapons?

It really is a lot like that! I was reminded a bit of the Full Armor Gundam's twin beam gun, but the GM Sniper Custom's weapon is an even closer match.

-- Mark
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