Artillery in One Year War

[Raikoh]

Since I wanted to continue this little debate but it was off the original thread's topic, I chose to open up a new one for this one.

I liked it better when I thought Gundam didn't bother with artillery because they would totally show up those silly giant robots. Apparently the MS Igloo writers think that artillery didn't exist before radio, and that artillery shells are slow enough to dodge. ....yeah.

It's not so much that the artillery is slow, just that the Mobile Suit is fast, and heavily armored. If you want to do any sort of damage, you need a heavy shell and you have to land a direct hit at a vital area (IGLOO again shows that the artillery need to aim at very precise locations, such as the knees, and even a slight change of the Mobile Suit's position is going to make the shot do a lot less damage. The Hildolfr had the scattering shot, which only could do damage, and looked like it barely managed to pierce the armor, at point-blank range). The first Zaku pilot wasn't even that good, since he panicked as soon as he saw the first artillery shell, but the distance was so great (they said 1800, which I assume was meters, given the perspective shot that was shown) and the Zaku was fast enough that he dodged one going for the head as a reflex.
Doing some rough estimates based on some quick Googling, I can assume that the artillery needed to damage a Mobile Suit would need to be fairly heavy, and thus the speed would be slower, the average speed of artillery being somewhere around 800-1600 m/s, based on a lot of different variables. Given the distance, and average speed of artillery, one or two seconds is more than enough time to react if you see the shot being fired, seeing how human reflexes respond in milliseconds. Had the Zaku pilot done anything other than fumble around when he saw the first artillery fired, none of the shots would have landed. That means that if you had a decent pilot, then there's no way the Zaku would even get tagged by the artillery. And this is with Zaku II, which isn't even close to the high-end One Year War models. Heck, I don't think the artillery shells could scratch something made of Lunar Titanium.

Using estimates of the range of weapons, there's also the fact that (as discussed in this topic, I'm estimating the Zaku's range) the Zaku's 120mm Machine Gun has a maximum range of 6 km, which means that the range of the Zaku II's machine gun far surpasses the effective range of the Federation's on-foot artillery. Or, as the other IGLOO episode (the Hildolfr one) mentioned, the Hildolfr, a tank, was estimated as being unable to hit moving targets from 10km away. Now, this is partly since the firing adjustments haven't been made, but it was a minute flaw that gives a good idea as to the effect Minovsky has on the battlefield, as well as how weapon range had been damaged. Even if the artillery has greater range, the issue is that they aren't aiming at something that's slow or unwieldy. Mind that maximum range is generally spotty, since the Hildolfr's maximum range was said to be 32 km, but I think that's assuming it's firing at a stationary target in prime conditions. It's commonly said that in modern warfare, standing still is a death sentence, and the same is the case in Gundam.

Going out of IGLOO, I'll also talk about the 08th MS Team. The Gouf Custom runs at a speed which allows it to outrun a Guntank's fire, and this is in the enclosed space of a city, and Norris wasn't even doing any fancy piloting tricks, he was just running.

Point is that you can say, "But, but, this is what SHOULD happen" all you want. The evidence shows that Mobile Suits had consistently trumped artillery. Guntank got shot down repeatedly in the original series, even more so after it went to space. Two Zakus managed to take out an entire artillery platoon, which cost the Federation (I estimate) sixteen men, each of whom was trained for a month (three weeks for four of them) at the expense of one Zaku (pilot's condition not confirmed), and some slight damages to the second Zaku. Six Zakus managed to destroy the Hildolfr and its incredibly highly trained and talented pilot, and if the Hildolfr was just an artillery unit, it wouldn't have been able to take out more than half of the Zakus even with the element of surprise that it had. The Gouf Custom by itself destroyed three Guntanks in a single battle. The reason they don't bother with artillery is because it's shown repeatedly to be inefficient. It's a gamble, and not one with good odds. Almost always it leads to everyone who was in the artillery unit dead. No matter how good it looks on paper, it just hasn't worked well in practice.

tl;dr: Artillery in the One Year War has major flaws that put Mobile Suits on top.
1. It had very limited ammunition that could be used and reliably cripple a Mobile Suit.
2. Minovsky spread greatly reduced the range, to at maximum around six times the maximum range of Zaku II machine guns (and that's before getting into later units in the OYW).
3. Mobile Suits are REALLY fast and agile, and given the distances they'd fight in, if they can see the artillery they probably aren't going to be getting hit, especially if they're doing anything other than just standing still.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

I think you missed the point of my original post. Of course mobile suits beat artillery. The show is Mobile Suit Gundam, not Self Propelled Artillery Gundam. Mobile suits are the stars of the show, so the world is built to make sure that MS rule the battlefield. I'm not saying that in terms of the show artillery is a major threat to mobile suits, we just (for some reason) never see it on-screen.

What I was saying was that, similarly to jet aircraft, the excuses the writers give us for why mobile suits are more effective than artillery fall flat. Yes, I accept that artillery is ineffective against mobile suits, since such is implied by the fact that we don't see artillery barrages wiping out mobile suits en masse. But I don't accept that this is at all reasonable -- I put it in the same category as the existence of Minovsky particles or Newtype powers, in that it's something you just have to accept to make the setting work. The idea that fusion of deuterium and helium-3 produces a heretofore undiscovered subatomic particle is ridiculous; the idea that living in space for a few generations will cause humans to gain psychic powers is silly; the idea that artillery would be ineffective against giant robots is utterly unrealistic. Yet Gundam asks you to believe all three in order to watch a fun show about teenagers with giant robots and psychic powers saving the day (without getting blown up by artillery in the process). It's just part of the willing suspension of disbelief inherent in enjoying the show.

I can get into why it's ridiculous and why the excuses they make for it fall flat, if you want, but what it boils down to is that artillery fails against mobile suits because the writers say so, not because it's a logical or reasonable consequence of the existence of mobile suits.

[Juumanistra]

"Artillery", while certainly being open to many interpretations, refers primarily tube-based howitzers with bores ranging from 75-203mm which throw large quantities of high-explosive shells via indirect trajectories over a distance of many miles.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... r_rear.jpg

This is an artillery piece. Particularly, the M777 lightweight 155mm howitzer, currently entering American service: It serves as a reasonable baseline for the World of Tomorrow's ZiS-3. (Of which the Soviet Union built more than 100,000, the bulk of which leading up to and during World War 2.) The M777 has a crew of 7 and is capable of launching ~10kg of HE downrange ~30km every 20 seconds. If we care to reasonably extrapolate in terms of automation and incorporation of reasonable technological advances, we can extend that range out to 50km and double the range while cutting the crew by at least 2.

The "Zaku Hunters" from MS Igloo were not artillery. They were the equivalent of an infantry company or battalion's anti-tank platoon, which constitutes organic fire support. (Who were let be slaughtered in a rather impressive bit of Zeek circle-jerking, because heaven forbid those without giant robots harm mighty Zeon.) Guntanks are not artillery either, despite 08th MS Team designation of them to the contrary. At least not in the sense BFK was talking about.

Why does artillery win? Because it doesn't have to score a direct hit. HE shells, upon detonation, generate a maelstrom of shrapnel traveling at hypersonic (e.g. 5-6km/s) velocities which will kill a man within 50m of the detonation point for a 155mm shell and wound one at 100m. The same will expose for optronics blocks, radio aerials, points of articulation (e.g. finger, elbow, and knee joints), and other vulnerable zones of a giant robot. The closer the shell is to its target, the greater the chance of damaging armored components, as well. The CEP for the M777 is purported to be in the ballpark of 50m at 25km; one can assume that if the World of Tomorrow could improve upon that with tighter tolerances or things like on-board self-guidance via inertial reference.

And even if one accepts Gundam's fervent attempts at materials science wank, simple physics still means artillery wins. As even if a giant robot can be rendered invulnerable to artillery fire, it's still a 15m humanoid that will have to retain its balance when impacted upon by the pressure wave created by the exploding shell. This will be a difficult task -- assuming it can be done at all -- from the concussive force of one shell. Given MRSI capability to put a half-dozen or more rounds onto target which exists in the field today, it becomes rather easy to saturate a mobile suit and mission kill it by knocking it over.

[Raikoh]

I'd say that in terms of power then, okay, you could probably manage to get one Zaku down if you got close enough. The issue I'd bring up is getting that distance. Remember that Mobile Suits have thick armor, huge plates that are way larger than those of a tank, even. If we want to talk about indirect fire, what about using the RX-78-2's 380mm Hyper Bazooka as a measuring stick? That thing could one-shot most grunts, but it was shown that dodging the bazooka generally was safe, which would suggest that One Year War armor is just too durable for most indirect physical weapons. Same goes for the Guntank, which was intended as an artillery unit (which would suggest it had indirect fire capabilities). The Zaku II even has that shoulder-mounted shield, which could possibly be for the express purpose of blocking artillery shells.

The Gouf took a direct hit from the Guncannon's shoulder cannons and kept fighting (and yes I am aware in that scene it blocked the cannon, and the shield was destroyed). Even the Kampfer, with its cheesecloth-thin armor, was able to dodge missiles by a hair (granted they would have lowered the indirect fire capabilities since it was in a colony) and come out unharmed. I'm sure that there are more examples of this sort of thing, but I think that's a fairly decent estimate. However, if you can find me a case where an Abrams gets taken out by indirect fire (or for full credit, to help contextualize this in the OYW setting: find a case where that happens in the same year it was rolled out/upgraded), then I would be more than willing to believe that the examples in-series of Mobile Suit's durability against physical projectiles is dependent on variables. Otherwise I would argue, supported by in-series evidence, "In most cases, Mobile Suits are too fast to be hit directly by artillery and too durable to get taken down by indirect fire."

There's also more to take into account than just "X vs. Y" that it's not just "Artillery vs. Mobile Suit" but (in this case) "Feddie vs. Zeon." People are adaptable, if they have a clear advantage that the opponent doesn't have, they aren't going to just abandon that advantage because it's imperfect. So I might actually buy that at the start of the One Year War, the Zaku I took some heavy losses from artillery, but that wouldn't last for long. They'd get their Zaku Snipers setup to just pick off the artillery with one shot or a wide variety of possible tactics.

I'd give you that for the first month or two artillery could have been a viable anti-MS option, if (and this is a fairly hefty 'if', given that there's evidence supporting the contrary) they could pierce the armor and get to the juicy bits with indirect fire, but that wouldn't last. Point is that Zeon has been stated many times as having overwhelming ground superiority due to Mobile Suits. Artillery doesn't make tanks or infantry worthless, so it wouldn't do the same to Mobile Suits.

[RGM-79 GM]

Well going by the hyper bazooka the explosive blast was largely useless against the armor. IIRC there was a Zaku II that Amuro shot the right arm/shield of, and while the shield was gone and the arm was useless the Zaku was still functional.

If you know the cannons shells were blocked by the shield isn't that meaningless? The shield would cause the shells to explode before hitting the Gouf's armor. If the cannons fire HEAT rounds, which seems like the most likely rounds, the shield would act like slat armor.

I don't think the missiles in 0080 were indirect fire. I can't check right now but generally the missiles in Gundam are all direct fire. If they were too durable for indirect fire how would that change with direct fire? Just cause for direct fire you say they are too quick while with indirect fire they are too durable.

Zaku I was basically rear lined before the OYW even started. So I really doubt it would come up against artillery enough to take heavy losses. If anything I'd say indirect shots would have a better chance of penetrating, provided the shell hits the MS rather than just exploding near it. Like with tanks, MS armor is strongest from the front. From above the shells should have a better chance of penetrating as there is no real reason to armor it better on the top armor than the front.

[Raikoh]

The main reason I'm spotty about the quality of the Gouf's armor is because while the shield was destroyed, the explosion was shown looking like this, which certainly looks like a direct hit to me. The issue with the armor specs given in Gundam is just that we don't know exactly how durable they are, only able to estimate based on what we're shown.

This is especially problematic since most of the Mobile Suits don't have their armor materials known. The Zaku II is stated to be a "Super-Hard Steel Alloy" of unknown thickness, and one can probably safely assume most Zeon units in the OYW are made of that, but it's an unknown variable. When it comes to talking about the effectiveness of indirect fire, I think I'm more hung up on it since, well, it's never been shown to be effective. If it were efficient, we'd probably see more of it. The main weaponry that changed the One Year War, however, was beams since they had the power to punch through Mobile Suits.

I think that the reduced usage of cracker grenades by Zeon might also be a point that says indirect fire (if you count grenades as indirect fire) wasn't as effective - at least, not against Feddie Mobile Suits. Unless you would say that the Sturm Faust made crackers obsolete. But now I'm getting off topic.

The main reason I would argue that they're too durable to be damaged by indirect fire is mainly because Mobile Suits have mostly needed to take a big hit to a key area to be taken out. Direct fire is generally better at penetrating armor since it's easier to score a hit to vital areas and the damage is more focused. At least that's the impression I have, I could just be full of it. Either way, the point is that Mobile Suits can keep running so long as their chest (and on Earth, legs) remain intact, and the leg joints of Mobile Suits usually are well-protected from the front.

Most physical rounds have a hard time disabling a Mobile Suit quickly. While it's not exactly the same (a far superior machine and Newtype shenanigans), M'quve tried a lot of indirect fire methods to take Amuro out in the original series, which proved largely ineffective. Another example, admittedly still not with Zeon types, is with the Xamel in 0083, which tried to take out Burning and Kou and actually landed its indirect fire, but it barely inconvenienced the machines. One I could manage to find where it might be effective is in the opening scene of War in the Pocket, where the Hygoggs are using missile pods which had some massive explosions (enough to destroy an entire bunker with one). One of the shots strays off and lands on the wall behind the Z'Gok E, which sends it flying and has it fall off the arctic base, but still is operable.

[RGM-79 GM]

Ah I see what you mean. To me it looks more like it went through the shield and blew up behind the Gouf. So maybe they have a charge that explodes slightly after penetrating rather than on impact? Provided that isn't a animation error.

Grenades can be thrown indirectly or directly. Fragmentation and shrapnel never really work on armored vehicles anyway. So crackers, grenades designed to fragment and create shrapnel, would be rather useless. It would be about as useful as using an M67 on a M1 abrams.

Direct fire is more likely to hit than indirect but the damage isn't more focused. I'm not sure but are you saying indirect fire for the explosive blast? Just wondering because that seems to be what you're saying. Indirect fire means it is fired without a line of sight or over obstacles, while direct fire is basically pointing your beam rifle at the enemy and shooting. With the Z'Gok E and the Hygogg missile, the missile was fired directly it hitting a building doesn't change that.

The knees being better protected from the front is basically showing what I meant. From the top the knees don't have armor but are heavily armored from the front. Since MS are designed to be best protected from the front rather than the top, rear, or sides.