Some Beltorchika's Children mecha questions

[Heaven Piercing Man]

Hi guys, new guy here looking for his ignorance to be killed. Lately I've been wondering about the mecha designs of Beltorchika's Children, and I noticed that my sources can't agree on what the hell is replacing the Jagd Doga in the novel. Most people I've asked just say "the NZ-222 Psyco Doga", but that points towards an MSV, the Alpha Azieru's prototype. Gundam Wiki points to the "MSN-03-2 Psyco Geara Doga", for which there's no lineart, just one illustration by Yutaka Izubuchi (and a custom model kit), so what's the deal here? Was there a retcon involved?

Likewise, Gundam Wiki has some BC novel illustrations showing designs from the CCA movie, which is weird considering we all know this is where the Hi-Nu and Nightingale come from. This leads me to think that originally "Nightingale" was just a word replacing "Sazabi" and nothing else (and so on). Was there any labeled lineart in the novel, model numbers and all?

[balofo]

-BC was actually written AFTER the CCA movie already and was made to reflect Tomino's original ideas for the movie that didn't make the cut
-It's called in Psyco Doga in the novel but since there was the CCA-MSV Psyco Doga already it has been retconned into Psyco Geara Doga to diferentiate it from the MSV. Only official picture of it, drawn by Izubuchi is the one bellow, later some drawings and kitbashes appeared and showed thre rest of its lower body(don't know hos legit it's though).

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lz7x3 ... 1_1280.jpg

-There's some drawings in the beginning of the novel with some model numbers, will have to redownload to confirm.
-Hi-Nu is called Hi-Nu in the novel. The fat Hi-Nu design came after(cover is old Nu). I believe it's described in the novel as having the Hi-Nu's attributes(different funnel rack, color at least) and the Hyper Mega Bazooka Launcher.
-Nightingale is called Nightingale in the novel and has its characteristic large body, don't remember if it uses the sub-arms.

[toysdream]

Beltorchika's Children is actually the second version of the Char's Counterattack novel. The first version, "Hi-Streamer," is a lot closer to the plot of the eventual movie and features most of the same characters and mecha. As they were preparing the movie, Tomino apparently went back and rewrote his Hi-Streamer novel with a bunch of new characters and mecha and plot. Beltorchika's Children is the end result.

Like balofo says, in Beltorchika's Children, we get a "Psyco Doga" piloted by "Glarv Guss", and Char pilots the Nightingale instead of the Sazabi. (In Hi-Streamer, as in the movie, we get Gyunei and the Jagd Doga and the Sazabi.) The Psyco Doga from Beltorchika's Children doesn't seem to have any relationship to the Psyco Doga from the kit manuals, which later became part of the CCA-MSV series.

In Beltorchika's Children, the Nu Gundam is still called the Nu Gundam, even though it does use a mega bazooka launcher at one point. That's why the cover shows the standard anime Nu Gundam - it's supposed to be the same thing.

Aside from the Newtype magazine illo that balofo posted, the original source of images for these guys is in the mecha profile section at the beginning of the Beltorchika's Children novel. The Psyco Doga isn't pictured in this section, and aside from the Nightingale, all the mecha are listed with the same names and specs and model numbers as the movie versions. (At this point, the movie specs had smaller head heights. That's why everyone says the Hi-Nu is 20 meters; the book just listed the standard specs for the Nu Gundam, and at that point they were saying the Nu was 20 meters tall.)

So if the Nu Gundam is just called the Nu Gundam in Beltorchika's Children, and they listed the standard Nu specs and description, where the heck does the "Hi-Nu" come from?

Well, in the book's mecha section, designer Yutaka Izubuchi took some liberties with his designs and drew them all a bit differently. What we now call the Hi-Nu started out as, simply, "that cool version of the Nu Gundam that Izubuchi drew in the mecha section of Beltorchika's Children." It was only later that this cool doodle got its own name and back story and was recognized as a distinct mobile suit. The "Hi" prefix, confusingly, seems to be an homage to the original Hi-Streamer novels.

Of all these guys, the only one that was reasonably fully depicted and clearly identified as a unique machine was the Nightingale. It's named that way in the Beltorchika's Children novel (unlike the Hi-Nu), it's depicted in the mecha profile section (unlike the Psyco Doga), and Izubuchi drew nice pictures of it for Newtype and B-CLUB magazines. The one thing it didn't have in the mecha section, unlike the other features machines, was a model number.

Whew! That's pretty long and detailed, but I've seen people getting this mixed up for decades, and I keep hoping that if I explain it one more time it'll stick.

-- Mark

[PowerdGNFlag]

Slightly related question: who made the illustrations for Hi-Streamer, which shows rather...liberal interpretations of the MSs, even if we are supposed to assume that they look like the way they eventually appeared in the movie?

[balofo]

I initially put the Hi-Nu as being called Nu in the novel but after seeing some translations and summaries calling it Hi-Nu I edited the info

If I'm not mistaken the lineart see on mahq for Hi-Nu and Nightingale first appeared in the CCA Dengeki collection from 1998.

Mark, since the pic I provided is from Newtype does the B-Club one show more of the Nightingale? Also what''s up with the Geara Doga F Type depicted in the Newtype pic(besides the head)?

[Heaven Piercing Man]

Mark, you're a godsend. So I guess back when the novel came out, people just knew "the Jagd Doga is called Psyco Doga in the novel and it was made the source of the Nu's psycoframe", nothing else?

(So that's why the Hi-Nu gunplas are shorter and less imposing than the Nu... good job Bandai )

I'm pretty curious about Hi-Streamer in general, since there's even less information on the web, and at first sight it seems way different from the eventual movie (A long prologue, Amuro going undercover into Sweetwater, a bunch of new characters like Cunningham, Alena, etc, the AEGM, etc), and as far as I know, BC doesn't seem *that* different from the final movie, but that's a whole different can of worms which doesn't belong in this topic. At least, what the hell is the Gabool Bergson? And any info on the weird Nu, Jeddah and Sazabi designs featured there would be nice (if there's any...)

[toysdream]

Mark, you're a godsend. So I guess back when the novel came out, people just knew "the Jagd Doga is called Psyco Doga in the novel and it was made the source of the Nu's psycoframe", nothing else?

Exactly!

(So that's why the Hi-Nu gunplas are shorter and less imposing than the Nu... good job Bandai )

Yep, basically just another setting SNAFU. All the mobile suits in CCA were originally spec'd out to be a couple meters shorter, but since the Hi-Nu is associated with the novel illustration, it got stuck with the Nu Gundam's old specs instead of the taller retcon specs.

I'm pretty curious about Hi-Streamer in general, since there's even less information on the web, and at first sight it seems way different from the eventual movie (A long prologue, Amuro going undercover into Sweetwater, a bunch of new characters like Cunningham, Alena, etc, the AEGM, etc), and as far as I know, BC doesn't seem *that* different from the final movie, but that's a whole different can of worms which doesn't belong in this topic. At least, what the hell is the Gabool Bergson? And any info on the weird Nu, Jeddah and Sazabi designs featured there would be nice (if there's any...)

Hi-Streamer is basically just the anime with a prologue. The collected novel (it was originally serialized in Animage magazine) runs to three volumes, and the events of the movie start a couple of chapters into the second volume. So you get a lot of back story about the early days of the Londo Bell, before Bright joined the group, and their initial investigation of Sweetwater. Throughout the first volume, Amuro and friends are fighting an anti-Federation group called EGUM, which is actually a front for Char's revived Neo Zeon. The Gabool Bergson is the "boss" mobile suit used by EGUM's leader, just before Char and his fleet appear and take over Sweetwater.

In other words: if it seems like CCA starts in the middle of the story, you're right! You're basically getting the last 2/3 of Hi-Streamer in animated form.

Compared to Hi-Streamer, Beltorchika's Children changes a lot. (You can tell from the title: in this version, Amuro and Beltorchika are still together, and she's preggers.) Aside from the character and mecha changes, we also get Hathaway killing Quess in battle, which is how he became a Federation hero as per the Hathaway novels. (So the Hathaway novels follow the continuity of Beltorchika's Children, rather than Hi-Streamer or the CCA anime.)

Slightly related question: who made the illustrations for Hi-Streamer, which shows rather...liberal interpretations of the MSs, even if we are supposed to assume that they look like the way they eventually appeared in the movie?

They're by sci-fi manga artist Yukinobu Hoshino, best known for "2001 Nights", and they're really different from typical Gundam stuff! When Hi-Streamer was reprinted about 15 years later, they had slightly more conventional new art by Chisama Kuori, but the original Hoshino illustrations were also included in the back of the book.


Back to the Hi-Nu and Nightingale: Yes, the lead Gundam was just called the "Nu Gundam" in Beltorchika's Children. Here's the famous front-of-the-book mecha profile:

http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/robosoku/img ... fa578f.jpg

According to the Japanese Wikipedia entry, the next time this design appeared was in the August 1990 issue of Hobby Japan, which featured a 1/120 scale scratchbuild produced under Izubuchi's personal supervision. Apparently it was still called the "Nu Gundam" at this point.

http://pmt-scorpius.cocolog-nifty.com/p ... hi02_3.jpg
http://pmt-scorpius.cocolog-nifty.com/p ... /hi001.jpg

Meanwhile, here's Izubuchi's Nightingale illo for B-CLUB magazine:

http://images.wikia.com/gundamweb/ja/im ... ingale.jpg

As balofo notes, it seems that the current standard illos of these guys first appeared in the CCA volume of the Data Collection series.

-- Mark

[balofo]

The real question is: when will Izubuchi(or Katoki) redesing the Nightingale so we can get an HG/MG and it can it be in EXVS?

[Heaven Piercing Man]

You know, I just got my hands on the novel. I dunno why... I can barely read a lick of Japanese, and even less in vertical right-to-left. Just for completionism, I guess... But I can see the Nightingale was the main show of the novel, gets a big artwork and is distinctively labeled as a whole new beast, and there's a blurb talking about the actual nightingale bird next to an illustration of Sazabi and two Geara Dogas walking (as far as I can understand)

And I noticed the Alpha Azieru has a different head in the artwork, it looks more like the Jagd Doga.

Hi-Streamer is basically just the anime with a prologue. The collected novel (it was originally serialized in Animage magazine) runs to three volumes, and the events of the movie start a couple of chapters into the second volume. So you get a lot of back story about the early days of the Londo Bell, before Bright joined the group, and their initial investigation of Sweetwater. Throughout the first volume, Amuro and friends are fighting an anti-Federation group called EGUM, which is actually a front for Char's revived Neo Zeon. The Gabool Bergson is the "boss" mobile suit used by EGUM's leader, just before Char and his fleet appear and take over Sweetwater.

In other words: if it seems like CCA starts in the middle of the story, you're right! You're basically getting the last 2/3 of Hi-Streamer in animated form.

Wow, that's neat. I wonder why nobody has tackled that part of the story in manga form, getting how Char's Neo Zeon revealed itself and the backstory of Londo Bell to wider masses would be great. But as far as I can see, Tomino wasn't really interested in that part of his work, given that he intended from the beginning to adapt the second half only, seeing that BC also covers only that part of the story. Now that I see it, I doubt the readers ever remotely imagined the story would end like that when Hi-Streamer began serializing, what a twist

(I noticed the artwork in Gundam Wiki has a pic of Char aboard the Sazabi with a teenage girl in underwear -Quess under a different character design I suppose-, real subtle guys, real subtle... Does that mean she was piloting the Jagd Doga in her undies, then jumped just like that across space to Sazabi's cockpit? Wow, way to one up Ple )

Compared to Hi-Streamer, Beltorchika's Children changes a lot. (You can tell from the title: in this version, Amuro and Beltorchika are still together, and she's preggers.) Aside from the character and mecha changes, we also get Hathaway killing Quess in battle, which is how he became a Federation hero as per the Hathaway novels. (So the Hathaway novels follow the continuity of Beltorchika's Children, rather than Hi-Streamer or the CCA anime.)

Yeah, those changes... Gyunei becomes Grave/Glab/Glarv/whatever, Nanai becomes Mesuta, Bright growing a beard, LB gets the psycoframe from a purposely discarded newtype MS, Quess gets pissed at Amuro when she feels Belty's preggers, the HMBL being useless after so much hassle setting it up, "Gyunei" gets stunned by the Newtype Fetus and gets shot in the face by Belty, Hathaway spends the whole battle chasing the Alpha Azieru like an annoying fly then shooting it down when Quess attacks Amuro "don't you dare touch my Char you mea--AAAAAAAGHHHHH BOOM" and Amuro dying of retirony.

Speaking of HF, I think that with a couple of retcons (to make people think Hassy is a hero and not a teamkiller) it'd be better to have him doing his whole Mufti schtick to "avenge Quess from the evil federation" instead of "making it up for saving Amuro from a crazy yandere", but I haven't read it, so take it with a grain of salt.

The real question is: when will Izubuchi(or Katoki) redesing the Nightingale so we can get an HG/MG and it can it be in EXVS?

HG/MG? Mein Gott, considering what a mess are the resin kits... and what a mess is the HG Kshatriya... That wouldn't end well.

[toysdream]

I've mentioned this before, but a big plot point in the Hathaway novels is that Hathaway is officially a hero of the Federation - as a result, he was given a cozy government job as a biological observer, which enables him to travel freely to and from Earth. This rare privilege is pretty useful for his role as terrorist ringleader!

You could probably come up with some other justification for it, but given the shoddy treatment Bright Noa tends to receive from the Federation, you can't just say he's riding his daddy's coattails.

-- Mark

[Zeonista]

In other words: if it seems like CCA starts in the middle of the story, you're right! You're basically getting the last 2/3 of Hi-Streamer in animated form.

Wow! You have just blown my mind on that reveal. I wonder if a PeterJackson-style cinematic epic could have covered the entire story....

According to the Japanese Wikipedia entry, the next time this design appeared was in the August 1990 issue of Hobby Japan, which featured a 1/120 scale scratchbuild produced under Izubuchi's personal supervision. Apparently it was still called the "Nu Gundam" at this point.

http://pmt-scorpius.cocolog-nifty.com/p ... hi02_3.jpg
http://pmt-scorpius.cocolog-nifty.com/p ... /hi001.jpg

Oo, oo, I used to have that magazine a long time ago! I got it in my anime n00b days at university, taken from a magazine bin to go with an issue of Animag. My knowledge of the moon runes was much less then, so mainly I looked at the pretty pictures, which were many. There was no model number given, but I never put any meaning by it then, just recognized it as a Nu Gundam with cool alt paint scheme.

balofo: I am with you man, a HG Nightingale would be boss, even if it took up MG space & had 11 runners!

[balofo]

You can see joke images about how far Izubuchi would slim the Nightingale all the time in 2chan

Even if turns out an expensive kit it will sell like HOT CAKES! And allow it to be correctly depicted in game(armaments, other details)

[AmuroNT1]

They could certainly do an HG Nightingale - after all, they did a 1/144-scale Dendrobium once upon a time. But expecting a Master Grade is rather like wishing for the Moon...with a scale Satelitte Cannon facility on it.

[balofo]

I'd bet my account we're getting HGUC Nightingale in less than 5 years. MG would be ridiculous indeed.

[Derringer]

Dragging this back up since it's relevant now.

Does anyone know when the Hi Nu went from purplish to purple-blue to blue without airburshing effects? The recently announced Hi-Nu Ver Ka is utilizing the color scheme last used by what I believe to be MS Illustrated 2003 or 2006. This is prior to 2009 when the MG Re-design from 2007 started being used. Interestingly, the 2007 MG version is being referred to as Ver Buchi internally within Bandai.

[Heaven Piercing Man]

They could certainly do an HG Nightingale - after all, they did a 1/144-scale Dendrobium once upon a time. But expecting a Master Grade is rather like wishing for the Moon...with a scale Satelitte Cannon facility on it.

They had to open a whole new category to make a 1/100 one...