Xeno Asks: Assorted UC Mechanics questions

[Xenosynth]

I was just doing some writing and whatnot, and so some questions I had regarding UC suits and mechanisms:

1. Do e-pacs eliminate the need for a mobile suit's generator to be capable of wielding beam weapons? Like... would a Zaku I be able to use the Gundam Mk II rifle? I guess I've never really understood how much a beam weapon draws from an MS vs an e-pac and such, so I didn't know for sure.

2. Are having specialized variants only really viable in the early UC? I began to notice as time went on in universe, later on we had less specialized variants (High MObility, Sniper types, etc) and that they really drop off during the CCA/Unicorn era, and I began to suspect that it may be because (In-Universe) the general use MS as time went on became so good at what they did, that the only real viable specializations were heavy armor/heavy weapons packs, rather than other variants which would lose some versatility that it would end up not being worth it. Anyway, random ramble thoughts but any confirmation on this?

3. Are CCA/Unicorn era MS designed well enough that most could work under gravity without the need of being modified? I know we see several MS being used under gravity (GM III, Jesta, etc.), but what about suits like the Jegan of that era, or the Rezel (Though, with the Delta Plus being used on the ground, I imagine the Rezel wouldn't have issue), and if that is the case, would there be any reason to even DESIGN MS that work well specifically under gravity (Especially given how most MS are deployed in space anyway)?

4. What would be the ideal thruster placements on gravity based MS and space based MS?

5. Is... there any word on what those yellow parts on the Gundam's skirt are? I've actually been curious about this for a while.

Anyway, sorry for the question storm again (As I've tended to do that on here >_>) but I was bored, started writing up random design ideas in my head, when most of the questions ended up coming to mind.

[bilbros]

Just a flash answer...

The first 4 points would need a much more detailed discussion, so for now let's pick up only question number 5.

According to the kit instructions, those parts are named Helium Control Core.

[Evex]

I'm going to be answering this by memory only, so I might not be one hundred percent accurate. Feel free to correct me, if I get something wrong.

About question one the explination is as follows. An e-cap is short for energy capacitor. E-caps store minovsky particles close to the state of becoming a mega particle, or beam. A mobile suits generator needs to be strong enough to provide enough power to complete this process. Unfortunately an e-cap is built into the weapon and can't be replaced. This means the rifle can only be recharged at a base or ship.

An e-pac or energy pack is a cartrige based e-cap. Its similar to a gun clip or drum magazine. The e-pac when it runs out of energy can be replaced with another e-pac. The mobile suit still needs to provide enough power to create a mega particle from the packs stored minovsky particles. In short if a mobile suit can't use an e-cap based beam weapon then it can't use an e-pac based beam rifle. I believe the lowest power output I've seen to use a beam rifle is 1150 kw on the RGM-79[G] Gm Ground Type.

[MythSearcher]

1) E-cap stores minovsky particles compressed to a pressure right before it's degeneracy pressure, while it saves about 80~95% of the Mega particle cannon energy for the MS (the energy was spent by the mothership's generator), the MS still needs to give about 5~20% for the final compression. The design of the beam rifles takes in that energy from a power connector on the MS's hands. Thus the MS-05~09s, since they didn't have that connector,(or at least the energy given from their connector is not nearly powerful enough, they can only give signals to the heat weapons after all) it is impossible for them to use conventional e-cap/e-pack weapons.
There are 2 ways to over come this problem, both from OYW.
The first(as in our/real life time) one being the concept of the beam bazooka for the MS-09R/R-II, which has its own generator and thus technically any MS can wield and fire(if it got enough hand power to hold it up, not much of a problem in space, just slower aim.). The same concept also appeared in the form of a mobile cannon SFS unit, the Skuire/Squire(no silent-e rule on this one) which uses the cannon parts of the MA-05 and is used for Moon surface combat.
The second being the concept of the MS-05L Zaku I Sniper, where it uses a MS-14 generator(replaced backpack) directly connected to its beam sniper rifle, so it didn't need to add/change the power cables in hands, but the rifle had an exposed cable attached to its backpack.

2) It's more like the level of conflict was much less than the earlier wars. OYW was the greatest war in UC, with most number of ships and mobile units participated. Then came the Gryps and 1st NZ war, which also has a wide battlefront, yet much more limited in numbers. EF pretty much lost interest in war after that, and you can't really find a fraction having that much of forces comparable to EF after that eventhough EF has weakened throughout the years for the anti-war sentiments that led to budget cutting(and thus less commissioned man power and less units in service, so all units needed to be multi-purpose). EF didn't really thought of renewing their land forces anyway, no fractions seeming had enough power to do ground combat with them, and to be honest, even in-universe, MSs are not that powerful in the Earth's atmosphere.

3) They have to work inside Colonies, which got a 0.9g, close enough to Earth's gravity as long as they stay on the "ground"/wall of the colonies. Thus combat on Earth it's really that much of a problem, it's just undesirable to do so since they'd have a lot of dead weight pretty much useless on Earth.

4) I'll answer you in terms of more real life situations. Ground combat MSs will be pretty much useless in real life, anything humanoid with a height exceeding 6 metres will be sitting ducks of any freely shaped weapons designed with the same technology and budget. Any humanoid above 4 metres and under 6 metres may stand a chance, but highly inefficient. Any humanoid within 3~4 metres might work, but most of the time not benefiting from its humanoid form and will be highly desirable to keep itself in another form(like lying on the ground and using tracks/wheels to move), rendering its hands and legs dead weight in most situations.
Start another thread if you want to discuss this in detail, I'll guess that's extremely likely already past discussions about this though.
In space, the humanoid will be much more useful and possible because of AMBAC(there are past discussions, search), other usually proposed space fighter shape concepts include the sphere, the cone/pyramid, or the differently numbered limbs under the AMBAC design(like single hand, single leg, two hand, two leg combination making 4 possible combinations: 1-1, 1-2, 2-1, 2-2, the snake/dragon, the kiwi, the scorpion/lobster and the humanoid). Having the main thrusters in the legs would be the best, since they add useful mass towards the limbs and thus helps in AMBAC mass distribution while getting the high energy/heated parts further from your cockpit and making the vector thrust much more mobile and obstruction-free with higher efficiency.(the hands are for mounting guns, if you'd like to know) That is why I didn't suggest numbers over 2, since the thrusters are likely one of the most expensive system onboard, just like the jet fighters in atmospere, and you can see that the higher performance/priced models like the F-15 and F-22 have 2 engines, and the lower one in the high-low mix like the F-16 and F-35(at least designed to be the lower priced alternative, though much over budget) have only 1 engine. Having more engines/thrusters also increases the chance of malfunctions, while more limbs means you have more surface area with more obstructions, thus I don't think more than 4 is efficient. AMBAC only works when the energy technology exceeds the propulsion technology(performance mass is lower), it is certainly not the case in today's technology(which both takes up pretty much the same mass for similar performances), but the science favours energy more than propulsion(which always needs reaction mass) so AMBAC will be the main stream in time if we don't have any breakthroughs in science.

5) As I was told, they were referred to as capacitors in the show somewhere(and thus the 4 times energy gain than the Zaku while with obviously only a 40~45% increase in generator output in all setting specs), but I don't recall that at all. In Gundam SF World book published in 1981, it was labeled as the secondary cooling system and cockpit cooling system's heat exchanger.(the joking section "spring powered Gundam" after that showed springs extending inside those yellow parts)

[Xenosynth]

Thanks for all the answers, they cover everything I was curious about!

[Zeonista]

1. Do e-pacs eliminate the need for a mobile suit's generator to be capable of wielding beam weapons?

After 0081, no, because more MS are made with the ability to use beam weapons, due to better/larger power plants. Early Zeon MS did not have that capability, and thus lacked the associated systems need to supply Minovsky energy to the hand-held beam weapon in question. The old-time Zakus, Doms, and Goufs simply lacked the ability to ever be capable of using beam weapons. Gelgoogs, Act Zakus, and Kampfers would be able to use e-pac weapons, and in the case of the first two versions actually do sometimes!

2. Are having specialized variants only really viable in the early UC? I began to notice as time went on in universe, later on we had less specialized variants (High MObility, Sniper types, etc) and that they really drop off during the CCA/Unicorn era

MythSearcher had the simplest answer. In the UC stories between 0087-0093 the number of specialized MS dropped off due to a lack of perceived need for them. Zeon was no longer trying to conquer Earth, so all those specialized MS weren't needed, and in turn the EFF had little need of specialized versions to combat them. As the general efficiency of MS increased, the MP MS were good enough that they needed little modification for performance, and modular design gave the ability to change the performance package instead of obtaining entirely new MS. Specialized or improved combat functions were increasingly left for the psychommu-equipped MS and the personal machines of the aces & leaders.

That being said, the EFF was still using different types of MS for certain purposes. The "special forces" had the Loto, and there were transforming MS for atmospheric combat, and for the Lond Bell reaction force. The EFF wasn't going to go all-Jegan any time soon.

3. Are CCA/Unicorn era MS designed well enough that most could work under gravity without the need of being modified?

Yes, for short-term usage MS of that era can definitely function on Earth as well as in space, all the more so because of enhanced performance that makes them very nimble & fast compared to the OYW MS. (You know, the comparatively clumsy, slow MS that the ZMF had used to almost conquer Earth in less than 1 year! ) Now, if the MS would be called upon to operate on Earth for an extended period of time, some environmental modifications might be made, and the non-transforming MS would be issued a flight platform to ease up on fuel expenditure. The real issue would be making sure a Spacenoid pilot is adapted to Earth's conditions, and is comfortable with operating a MS under terrestrial conditions. If the pilot isn't on top of things, it won't matter if the MS is ready for Earthside combat or not.

[Xenosynth]

I actually hadn't thought about that, with the OYW being so big compared to the other wars. I guess it's less of a surprise when you think of it that way. Maybe it's just because I want to see more MSV of the later suits =P But yeah, understandable why they were lacking in overly-specialized MS.

Same with the point about the pilots. Living in low gravity environments, especially if working near the center of a colony most of the time and whatnot, probably makes you ill-suited for mobile suit combat under gravity, since you are basically controlling something that already isn't an analogue to perfect human movement, in an unknown environment, while having to maintain balance and whatnot much more... well, differently.

Also, I have to imagine, onboard generators for a weapon probably make the weapon very expensive, though as mentioned it probably wasn't necessary. Actually, this brings up another point, I know the weapons are much smaller, but the Junior mobile suit from Zeta... if it can wield a rather strong beam weapon as it does, does it have a stronger generator than earlier MS as well? OR is the weapon size different enough that it doesn't matter as much?

[Zeonista]

Ugh, insomnia is bad for me, but allows for much contemplation of Gundam stuff!

I actually hadn't thought about that, with the OYW being so big compared to the other wars. I guess it's less of a surprise when you think of it that way. Maybe it's just because I want to see more MSV of the later suits =P But yeah, understandable why they were lacking in overly-specialized MS.

The strategic and tactical ideas behind the us and design of MS changed as well. After the One Year War ended, MS were the acknowledged decisive weapons. Specialized types of MS further took a hit, since now it was understood that in any military conflict the opposing MS forces would be the key factor. MS were designed to fight other MS as a primary concern, and that did tend to narrow the design options.

Same with the point about the pilots.

In the end, it's all about the people involved, as the hard-hearted stories keep reminding us.

Living in low gravity environments, especially if working near the center of a colony most of the time and whatnot, probably makes you ill-suited for mobile suit combat under gravity, since you are basically controlling something that already isn't an analogue to perfect human movement, in an unknown environment, while having to maintain balance and whatnot much more... well, differently.

Actually, as the anime shows, the MS are always capable of motion and combat to an intimidating degree. However, they do react, move, and fight according to the ability of their pilots, and that's where the good old human factor enters the situation and upsets all the calculations. OTOH using robot soldiers is damn boring, so bring on the Gundam drama!

Also, there never seems to be a problem with Spacenoids adapting to Earth. I checked for that myself, but the instances of Zeon or AEUG or EFF types born in space and operating MS and having troubles operating on Earth are very few, and played for laughs more often than not. One suspects that pilots selected for Earthbound operations were given offscreen training time to learn to overcome those difficulties, and were able to deal with the physical effects outside the MS as well. The ones that didn't learn enough were probably the first to fall, so we never got to see them...

Also, I have to imagine, onboard generators for a weapon probably make the weapon very expensive, though as mentioned it probably wasn't necessary.

Zeon went to war with MS unable to use beam weapons because that's what they had when Gihren gave the "go" order. As subsequent events proved, the lack of MS beam weapons was not an issue for the first part of the One Year War. The Marine MS used them first, but that did not cause a "ZOMG Mecha-Cthulhu" scenario. The development plan for the Gelgoog and other MS (and Mobile Armors) capable of using beam weapons was already moving forward anyway.

As for the question of expense, well, fighting less expensively than the enemy might sit well with the taxpayers, but it is not a condition for victory. The RX-78-2 made Zeon have to kick the R&D into high gear. Sure the Gundam and the GMs were more expensive than any Zaku, but the expenditure would be worth it in victory.

[Xenosynth]

Mostly when it comes to the spacenoids, I have to wonder how long it takes to adapt. In real life space stations, most people have to exercise constantly and whatnot, and especially with running, and even then, they still have to readjust to gravity. As Chris Hadfield's videos show on youtube, being in space is very different. If someone was raised in a low/null gravity environment for a long time, it's not just getting used to the gravity, a lot of their physiology changes too (such as feet becoming a lot less hardened, due to hands and the tops of the feet being used a lot more, though this might also be overanalyzing for a show from the 1970s, when extended time in space and its effects weren't as well known, and even now, there are some strange effects on humans that we still don't fully understand (I can only pray space-psychicism would be a thing /joke)).

On the onboard generators, I just mentioned them mostly in relation to the beam bazooka, but that thing was so large and unwieldy that it probably couldn't be effectively used by Zakus on the ground, and even in space it's usually shown in games and whatnot used by either the Rick Dom or Gelgoog. But if Zeon did have beam weapons a bit earlier and on Zakus... that'd have probably altered the course of the war, given how often Amuro got hit in the Gundam =P


Also, another point I meant to bring up: Do they ever acknowledge heating issues in space? In space there's obviously no air or anything for heat to dissipate to, so even though we see several solid machine guns in space, wouldn't they need to be modified or something? I imagine that sustained fire would melt the barrel of the gun due to overheating. Same with weapons like head vulcans and whatnot. I mostly realized this when talking to an Astronomy professor about the design of space craft, and we talked about heating issues and whatnot when it comes to commercial vessels and such in space, and how space presents many problems not found on earth when it comes to these things.

Again, I might be overanalyzing, but I prefer overanalyzing a franchise like Gundam rather than pulling an MST3K and just not asking the questions haha. Besides, it's all for fun.

[Sabersonic]

Also, another point I meant to bring up: Do they ever acknowledge heating issues in space? In space there's obviously no air or anything for heat to dissipate to, so even though we see several solid machine guns in space, wouldn't they need to be modified or something? I imagine that sustained fire would melt the barrel of the gun due to overheating. Same with weapons like head vulcans and whatnot. I mostly realized this when talking to an Astronomy professor about the design of space craft, and we talked about heating issues and whatnot when it comes to commercial vessels and such in space, and how space presents many problems not found on earth when it comes to these things.

From what I can tell off the top of my head, the issue of thermal waste management is acknowledged in the supplementary material and noted in certain spacecrafts such as the Chivvay's Cargo Bay. As for the animation proper, it appears to take a back seat from propellant and munition issues, if any. Valvrave does a comparatively better job at addressing this issue, though not the best of executions nor examples.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Mostly when it comes to the spacenoids, I have to wonder how long it takes to adapt. In real life space stations, most people have to exercise constantly and whatnot, and especially with running, and even then, they still have to readjust to gravity.

Living in a real-life space station means living in microgravity, though. Gundam's space colonies have artificial gravity generated by centrifugal force, which means the physiological differences between Earthnoids and Spacenoids are minor, at best. Space colonies are explicitly designed to allow their citizens to live in as Earthlike conditions as possible; most of the adjustment would be mental, rather than physical. (Witness Ramba Ral's troops freaking out at lightning, a terrestrial phenomenon the spacenoids in question would never have seen before.)

Also, another point I meant to bring up: Do they ever acknowledge heating issues in space?

Not really. The only reference we get to that is the occasional mention of dedicated MS carriers needing cooling equipment to use on their MS after they return from a sortie. The general consensus is that MS use their frame and armor itself as heat sinks to absorb excess heat, which means they need to be artificially cooled once they return to their ships in order to avoid damaging themselves.

[MythSearcher]

Mostly when it comes to the spacenoids, I have to wonder how long it takes to adapt. In real life space stations, most people have to exercise constantly and whatnot, and especially with running, and even then, they still have to readjust to gravity. As Chris Hadfield's videos show on youtube, being in space is very different. If someone was raised in a low/null gravity environment for a long time, it's not just getting used to the gravity, a lot of their physiology changes too (such as feet becoming a lot less hardened, due to hands and the tops of the feet being used a lot more, though this might also be overanalyzing for a show from the 1970s, when extended time in space and its effects weren't as well known, and even now, there are some strange effects on humans that we still don't fully understand (I can only pray space-psychicism would be a thing /joke)).

On the onboard generators, I just mentioned them mostly in relation to the beam bazooka, but that thing was so large and unwieldy that it probably couldn't be effectively used by Zakus on the ground, and even in space it's usually shown in games and whatnot used by either the Rick Dom or Gelgoog. But if Zeon did have beam weapons a bit earlier and on Zakus... that'd have probably altered the course of the war, given how often Amuro got hit in the Gundam =P


Also, another point I meant to bring up: Do they ever acknowledge heating issues in space? In space there's obviously no air or anything for heat to dissipate to, so even though we see several solid machine guns in space, wouldn't they need to be modified or something? I imagine that sustained fire would melt the barrel of the gun due to overheating. Same with weapons like head vulcans and whatnot. I mostly realized this when talking to an Astronomy professor about the design of space craft, and we talked about heating issues and whatnot when it comes to commercial vessels and such in space, and how space presents many problems not found on earth when it comes to these things.

Again, I might be overanalyzing, but I prefer overanalyzing a franchise like Gundam rather than pulling an MST3K and just not asking the questions haha. Besides, it's all for fun.

Well, living in UC space Colonies are very different than living in the ISS in real life nowadays.
the Island 3 colonies are designed to have an artificial gravity from rotation that simulates about 0.9g.
Conspiracy theorist can speculate that to be an attempt to lower the physical abilities of the spacenoids so it is harder for them to rebel, might have seen this in the settings, but in a more real life situation, a modern training manual in the 0.9g environment can make any normal human soldier overcome that 0.1g gap, especially all they need to make that gap disappear is to increase the rotation speed of the colonies, which Zeon has all the time to do so without being noticed. In fact, making the colonies give a 1.1~1.2g gravity is not all that hard.

The thing that makes it hard for the spacenoid soldiers, however, is the enclosed environment during the training. There's not enough space for them to practices long range firing, and the fired rounds projectory will be different from what they will do on Earth.(they fly straight in the colonies once they are fired, is just that the colonies are round, so the rounds "fall" back to the ground.)
Ark Performance had this covered in the last battle of Gihren's Assassination Plan, in Side 3, they needed another aiming program for adjusting how the rounds fall.
Another hard training will be for the fighter pilots. Going super-sonic inside a colony is just suicide, so one can imagine the helicopter-like battle situations for the Dopp, instead of the fighter-like usage.

The heating issue, read the manga "Developers", the MS-04 they used have heating issues in space and have a limited operation time.
In 0080, the Zaku FZ even has heating issues inside a colony(Al tried to touch it but almost burnt himself, saying its still hot), and the settings following that and the 08MS team gives us a "MSs will heat up to a few hundred degrees after 10 mins of operation due to the waste heat from their nuclear fusion generators, thus their motherships needed specialized cooling equipments, and they needed 30 mins of cooling time before they can be serviced." Therefore the RB-79s are more favourable on smaller crafts that do not have the space to carry the cooling equipments, since the RB-79s use fuel battery instead of fusion generator. This also made the RB-79 much easier to be resupplied and send out to combat again.

[toysdream]

In 0080, the Zaku FZ even has heating issues inside a colony(Al tried to touch it but almost burnt himself, saying its still hot), and the settings following that and the 08MS team gives us a "MSs will heat up to a few hundred degrees after 10 mins of operation due to the waste heat from their nuclear fusion generators, thus their motherships needed specialized cooling equipments, and they needed 30 mins of cooling time before they can be serviced."

I think they put that scene in Gundam 0080 because of the setting info, not vice versa. In Gundam Century's writeup on the Zaku II, we were told that...

Previously, the engine was cooled by absorbing its heat with the same liquid hydrogen which served as rocket fuel. However, since this liquid hydrogen was expelled from the machine when the rockets were fired, the thermonuclear reactor would overheat within a few minutes unless its output was lowered to match the dwindling supply of rocket fuel. The revolutionary cooling system of the MS-06, on the other hand, used high-performance heat conductors to absorb the waste heat concentrated around the thermonuclear reactor and high-energy weapons, and then distribute it throughout the mobile suit's body structure. When this system was employed, the mobile suit's body could heat up by hundreds of degrees during combat, and upon returning from battle it had to be cooled inside its mothership.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

I think they put that scene in Gundam 0080 because of the setting info, not vice versa. In Gundam Century's writeup on the Zaku II, we were told that...

Previously, the engine was cooled by absorbing its heat with the same liquid hydrogen which served as rocket fuel. However, since this liquid hydrogen was expelled from the machine when the rockets were fired, the thermonuclear reactor would overheat within a few minutes unless its output was lowered to match the dwindling supply of rocket fuel. The revolutionary cooling system of the MS-06, on the other hand, used high-performance heat conductors to absorb the waste heat concentrated around the thermonuclear reactor and high-energy weapons, and then distribute it throughout the mobile suit's body structure. When this system was employed, the mobile suit's body could heat up by hundreds of degrees during combat, and upon returning from battle it had to be cooled inside its mothership.

-- Mark

Hmm, I guess I related that piece of info to the cooling ducts on Zaku II and not the heating problems.