Dawn of the Zaku

[JEFFPIATT]

strangely the tank is an last ditch field mod that used up undamaged zaku torsos and tank bases to make an functioning unit. the worker seems to be an abandoned model that may have used Zaku I bodies with ms-06 parts added on along with the worker equipment attached.

[toysdream]

Not to derail the topic (I already kinda did that in Mark's other one, sorry. ), but is the missile launcher on the Dom Cannon supposed to be the same one that was in Zeonic Front on units like Royer's Gouf Custom?

According to my notes, the Gouf Custom in Zeonic Front uses the same missile launcher as the Gelgoog Cannon.

The launcher on the Dom Cannon's forearm, on the other hand (so to speak), is the same Ratsriver triple missile pod used by the Zaku Desert Type, not to mention the Galluss-K from Gundam Unicorn. And according to the MSV-R series, this weapon was also widely used by the Ace Corps' Gelgoogs as well, which means that all these forearm gadgets must be relatively interchangeable.


Meanwhile, I've added a bunch of new stuff to that cannon comparison chart...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... arison.jpg

To my amazement, the universe of One Year War projectile weapons seems almost entirely consistent and rational. When you see them all side by side in the same scale, these weapons are pretty much all the appropriate relative size for their listed calibers! It's so consistent that we could almost guess the sizes of the mystery ones - the Dom Cannon's gun, for example, must be at least 240mm.

As for the 08th MS Team version of the Guntank, I note that Gundam Century originally spec'd out the Guntank's guns as 280mm. When you look at it next to the Hildolfr's 300mm gun, that seems about right for the Guntank Mass Production Type.

The one glitch is the Magella Attack. Most recent specs - like the ones from MS Igloo and the 08th MS Team web site - put its overall length at 12 to 12.5 meters, and this is also what's indicated by the size comparisons from the 08th MS Team anime. But you can see at a glance that this makes the Magella Top cannon too small compared to the Zaku, and the Magella Base too small to support a Zaku Tank. Most of the model kits are sized so that the Magella Attack is about 14 meters overall, but when you scale the handheld cannon to match the size of the Master Grade and HG-UC versions, it turns out that it should be about 38% bigger!

So the Magella Attack seems to be another case where the official specs are way too small. The length spec of 15.9m from the old Mobile Suit Gundam Story Book series is the most plausible published figure, I'd say.

-- Mark

[Zeonista]

Not to derail the topic (I already kinda did that in Mark's other one, sorry. ), but is the missile launcher on the Dom Cannon supposed to be the same one that was in Zeonic Front on units like Royer's Gouf Custom?

According to my notes, the Gouf Custom in Zeonic Front uses the same missile launcher as the Gelgoog Cannon.

The launcher on the Dom Cannon's forearm, on the other hand (so to speak), is the same Ratsriver triple missile pod used by the Zaku Desert Type, not to mention the Galluss-K from Gundam Unicorn. And according to the MSV-R series, this weapon was also widely used by the Ace Corps' Gelgoogs as well, which means that all these forearm gadgets must be relatively interchangeable.

Even without the WMP, that is a fair level of compatibility. It seems the forearm missile launcher was produced as a standard fit-to-MS support accessory, right?

To my amazement, the universe of One Year War projectile weapons seems almost entirely consistent and rational.

How nice for you to have them all stack up right away! Based on the excellent comparison scale, it seems the big cannon-types all landed in the same general caliber range and mostly with enough barrel length to put them in roughly the same range. Is it me though or did the calibers for some increase a bit?

Most of the model kits are sized so that the Magella Attack is about 14 meters overall, but when you scale the handheld cannon to match the size of the Master Grade and HG-UC versions, it turns out that it should be about 38% bigger!

So the Magella Attack seems to be another case where the official specs are way too small. The length spec of 15.9m from the old Mobile Suit Gundam Story Book series is the most plausible published figure, I'd say.

Of course, something had to not fit in without adjustment! The Magella Attack tank was very large for an AFV; it was noticeably larger than the other Zeon vehicles and the EFF's Type 61. The animation for the one 08th Platoon episode also seems to support your measurements; the Zaku-J from Topp's squad toted a Magella cannon at the HG-UC scale. IIRC the cover art for the old 1/144 Magella model also featured a Zaku with the cannon that proper scale. So I'd say the story book had the better dimensions.

Describing the GM Cannon's shoulder weapon as a rocket launcher does not make sense. It in no way is portrayed as a rocket-firing weapon. Firing the rocket full-on would still cause nasty recoil, and a gradual acceleration launch as per the old gyrojet pistol might give an attentive Zeon unit an extra split-second to evade. It should be represented as a 240mm cannon, which would be compatible with the Guncannons, at least.

[toysdream]

Yeah, the Magella is definitely too small under the current specs. In the old 1/144 Zaku Tank kit, the base section alone (with no turret) is the equivalent of 14 meters long. The kit has an overall height of 81mm - equivalent to 11.7 meters. That's close to the height of 12.0 meters listed for the MS-06V-8 in the MSV-R series, and makes me think that the Zaku Tank kit is properly scaled.

Incidentally, both the old 1/144 Magella Attack kit and the official specs for the new MS Igloo version indicate that the overall length is 12% more than the base length. So if the base is 14 meters long, then the overall length would be about 15.7 meters.

Based on the MSV-R specs, the Zaku Tank kit seems slightly undersized. That means the Magella should be slightly bigger too, so the old Story Book specs would be right on the money. In conclusion:

Magella Attack: Overall length 15.9m, base length 14.2m
Zaku Tank: Overall height 12.0m, overall length 14.2m

Every version of the Magella has a different overall height. But based on the proportions of the old 1/144 kit, the overall height of the classic type would be 9.0 meters high; based on the proportions in the specs, the MS Igloo type would be 8.4 meters high.


Meanwhile, I've updated the cannon comparison once again to add the original Guntank and Guncannon, which started this whole fad. It's immediately obvious that the GM Cannon's guns are smaller caliber than those of the Guncannon; I think it makes perfect sense to assume the GM Cannon has a 240mm gun, maybe firing higher-velocity rounds thanks to its longer barrel. Exactly as described in Gundam Century: "A production type, which extended the cannon barrel for higher muzzle velocity..."

As for the Guntank, it's really hard not to think that it has the exact same cannon as the RTX-440 from MS Igloo.

-- Mark

[Zeonista]

Heh, the Magella Attack tank is bigger than the Victory Gundam. A Sherman tank could be totally concealed by it.

The RX-75 Guntank is listed as having 180mm cannon most of the time. The MP Guncannon is supposed to carrying 200mm cannon, which makes sense considering they are more slender.

[toysdream]

The Guntank's normally listed with 120mm cannons on the Japan side. I think the only place that ever said they were 180mm was Hobby Japan's "Gundam Mechanics" card series, which MAHQ (and a lot of other English-language sites that crib their specs from MAHQ) latched onto and never updated.

Since the RTX-440's cannon is 220mm, and the Guntank's guns turn out to be the exact same size and shape, I think the most logical approach may be to assume they bungled the initial digit and the Guntank's guns are also 220mm - a bit bigger than the Ball's cannon or the handheld 180mm gun from 08th MS Team. That also keeps things consistent with the MSV background for the RTX-44, which had 240mm cannons and was unfeasibly heavy.

-- Mark

[Zeonista]

I am willing to accept the 220mm bore for the Guntank, because of the similar size, although the HGUC model has slender barrels for the bore; maybe less firing was required for a prototype. I also accept the larger caliber since only 30 shells were carried per gun, and they hit hard. Anything tagged by the Guntank's cannon didn't fight again, and Zeon MS frequently retreated once the Guntank finally caught up to the battle and began blastiing away. (Zeonic Front rubs this in your face whenever Hayato & Guntank are present. He's a slow-moving target, but if you linger in front of him you will be sorry!)

[MythSearcher]

The Guntank's normally listed with 120mm cannons on the Japan side. I think the only place that ever said they were 180mm was Hobby Japan's "Gundam Mechanics" card series, which MAHQ (and a lot of other English-language sites that crib their specs from MAHQ) latched onto and never updated.

Since the RTX-440's cannon is 220mm, and the Guntank's guns turn out to be the exact same size and shape, I think the most logical approach may be to assume they bungled the initial digit and the Guntank's guns are also 220mm - a bit bigger than the Ball's cannon or the handheld 180mm gun from 08th MS Team. That also keeps things consistent with the MSV background for the RTX-44, which had 240mm cannons and was unfeasibly heavy.

-- Mark

But what about the Ball having the same canon used for the Guntank?
the original 120mm canon used by Ball was supposed to be the same thing used on the Guntank?

[toysdream]

Well, the same basic weapon - a modified version, as per the MSV books - but not necessarily the exact same caliber. In any case, nowadays all the Japanese sources agree that the Guntank's guns are 120mm and the Ball's gun is 180mm, so they don't think it's the same caliber either.

Actually, the size of the Ball is another one of those things that's surprisingly hard to pin down. The scale comparisons from the Gundam 0083 model sheets make it look a bit smaller than the official overall height of 12.8 meters. I added it to my chart based on the 0083 scale comparisons:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... arison.jpg

I think, at this size, the Ball's gun makes a very convincing 180mm weapon. That puts it at the same caliber as the 08th MS Team's handheld cannon, and a little less than the RTX-440 cannon or the weapons used by the GM Cannon and Guncannon Heavy Custom. The Ball's gun seems a bit smaller than those of the Guntank, so I still think the RTX-440 spec is more plausible for the Guntank. But the Ball's gun seems pretty much the same size as those of the Guntank II...

-- Mark

[Zeonista]

Suddenly this has turned into a Canon thread. Maybe the relevant talk should be separated from the more Zaku-relevent material?

Because as a good Zeonista I never know when to stop, the RXR-44 Guntank has 200mm cannon which actually look to be the dimensions of the Guntank II & Zaku Cannon weapons. They are approximately the same size/shape as the Loto's optional 120mm cannon as well.

[bilbros]

Suddenly this has turned into a Canon thread

Well, I would say a "Cannon Canon thread"

Ok, jokes aside, I have to say that we're having a lot of interesting points and hypotheses here, like toysdream's guess on the possible relation between the MS-06K and the original Zaku III.

By the way, it has been noted that 08h MS Team's Zaku Cannon is probably an incomplete unit lacking everything below the torso..this is surely true (or at least very likely) for the one seen on the OVA, but apparently the videogame Gundam Browser Wars does include a complete version of that MS:

http://img265.imagevenue.com/img.php?im ... _246lo.jpg

[toysdream]

Personally, I'm perfectly happy to let the topic slip and slide around - we're still vaguely on the topic of the Zaku Cannon, after all.

And bilbros, that's a very cool find. What even is that thing? It's vaguely got a Zaku head - no antenna, though, which is true of the one in 08th MS Team. From there on it gets weirder and weirder. I love it!

Oh, as for the Ball, it occurs to me that we do have one point of comparison - the Ball-based remote units on the GM Juggler. If we use that as a scaling guideline, then the Ball should be about 20% bigger, with the central sphere about 6 meters in diameter as per the Master Grade kit. Time for another update to the comparison chart!

And finally, I note that the MSV GM Cannon kit manual insists that the original Guncannon was armed with 360mm rocket launchers. This raises the possibility that the Guncannon (which has obvious exhaust vents) has rocket launchers, and the GM Cannon (which doesn't have exhaust vents) has shell-firing cannons.

-- Mark

[domtropen]

That Zaku cannon has Gelgoog cannon-ish head and upper body like Zaku FZ

The angular upper leg of Zaku Cannon seems to be more or less similar to F2 & FZ too [and YMS-08 & Act Zaku]. Perhaps the MS-11 is supposed to be angular Zaku-ish replacement of Zaku before Gundam show up?

[toysdream]

The F2 and FZ still have pretty rounded legs, though. The only other Zeon mobile suits I can think of with truly square thighs are the Zaku Recon Type, Zaku Marine Type, Act Zaku, Gelgoog, and Galbaldy.

-- Mark

[Enileph]

I have seen both Guntank and Ball listed as 120mm also. And got used to treating them as 120mm. Currently playing gundam kizuna and checked. It is mentioned as 120mm both in background and in game. Same goes for mass production Guntank. (The transformer Guntank as in Igloo II is marked as 220mm)

But I have also seen the 180mm mentioned somewhere else in other sources, strange indeed. Maybe the balls got an upgrade? I know K-ball would be equipped with 180mm if they are not having the 2x meachinegun type settings.

On the side note, the cannon of RX-78-6 is 300mm.

[toysdream]

180mm seems to be the dominant figure - that's what's listed in the MS Encyclopedia, the MG and UG-UC kit manuals, and the MSV-R series, just for starters. It does make sense that the Ball's main gun would be higher caliber than the Zaku machine gun (which, as we've discussed elsewhere, probably isn't really 120mm anyway). Then again, most of the Japanese sources don't bat an eye at the figure of 120mm for the Guntank's huge guns, so "making sense" isn't necessarily a high priority.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

Well, the same basic weapon - a modified version, as per the MSV books - but not necessarily the exact same caliber. In any case, nowadays all the Japanese sources agree that the Guntank's guns are 120mm and the Ball's gun is 180mm, so they don't think it's the same caliber either.

Actually, the size of the Ball is another one of those things that's surprisingly hard to pin down. The scale comparisons from the Gundam 0083 model sheets make it look a bit smaller than the official overall height of 12.8 meters. I added it to my chart based on the 0083 scale comparisons:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... arison.jpg

I think, at this size, the Ball's gun makes a very convincing 180mm weapon. That puts it at the same caliber as the 08th MS Team's handheld cannon, and a little less than the RTX-440 cannon or the weapons used by the GM Cannon and Guncannon Heavy Custom. The Ball's gun seems a bit smaller than those of the Guntank, so I still think the RTX-440 spec is more plausible for the Guntank. But the Ball's gun seems pretty much the same size as those of the Guntank II...

-- Mark

That's a problem here though, the 180mm figure pretty much came out only after Katoki's design, which was a customized/generalized version. Although I like the Katoki version better, the original version showed a different cannon design by Kunio, which the outter barrel is not parallel, but slanted, smaller in the front and large in the back. Which one can say that they are using different cannons. This still holds true since the HGUC model uses the Katoki guns eventhough the body is still the old version(which is reasonable if the 180mm is cheaper than the 120mm Guntank gun)
And also, to think of the V project's cancelled RX-76 Prototype Ball, using the same cannon with the same calibre would be reasonable(the Ground and the Space specialized units having the same cannon will make it easier on the supplies), but may not be entirely practical when it comes to mass production, especially when they are just modifying SP-W03s, which I can assume they are also using a lot of different easily available parts they can get. The ground troops also has 180mm for their 79[G]s, so this maybe another common weapon the EFF has, with standardized ammunition. With twin cannon types, missile launcher types, the Ball has quite some different variantions as well, and the RX-75 didn't really go into mass production(the ones in 08MS seems to be quite limited in production as well), I'd say they just used up their stock of 120mm cannons and ammo, then switched to the 180mm ones. I won't be surprised if there are 150/155mm cannon equipped Balls, taking the cannons from the Type 61.

At least Gundam Officials supports the two calibre(120mm & 180mm) theory, yet also says the 180mm version is the most produced version.

The 120mm just seems to fade out entirely.
The RRf-06 uses a 120mm cannon, the RX-75, RX-76 basically the same thing.
Limited mass production of RX-75 and RMV-1 also uses the 120mm, and possibly some of the RB-79s as well, but after that? I don't think I see the 120mm on other models, they completely fall out of the EFFs arsenal and they don't produce them anymore, interestingly favouring either much larger calibres like the 180mm, 220mm or even the 240mm, or slightly smaller calibre like the 110mm, 100mm and the 90mm.

The supply department of the EFF and Zeon must be cursing the weapons designers to death and damnation for eternity during the OYW, you can sense the hatred in the air with that many different calibre weapons.

Come to think of it, the EFF might have designed the 120mm weapons hoping to make use of the Zeon's Zaku machine gun ammo, but the Zeon phased out the 120mm as well, thus the EFF lost interest in that calibre?

Usually the designs of newer weapons uses a slightly larger calibre so you can still use the older shells if really desperate.(also a slightly larger calibre of your enemies similar weapons so you can use their but they can't use yours)

[toysdream]

It's not actually true that the 180mm spec only showed up after Katoki's redesign. It was listed as 180mm in Gundam Century, the Roman Album books, and Entertainment Bible 1 - some of the earliest of all Gundam sources.

That said, the cannon on the original line art does look narrower than that of Katoki's version. (I'll add that to my lineup.) Katoki's design seems like a better match for the consensus spec of 180mm, and the original design could certainly pass for 120mm.

I don't think I'll ever be convinced the Guntank has 120mm guns, though! Since the 220mm gun on the RTX-440 turns out to be exactly the same size, I'm happy to consider that an unofficial "correction" to the consensus spec.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

It's not actually true that the 180mm spec only showed up after Katoki's redesign. It was listed as 180mm in Gundam Century, the Roman Album books, and Entertainment Bible 1 - some of the earliest of all Gundam sources.

That said, the cannon on the original line art does look narrower than that of Katoki's version. (I'll add that to my lineup.) Katoki's design seems like a better match for the consensus spec of 180mm, and the original design could certainly pass for 120mm.

I don't think I'll ever be convinced the Guntank has 120mm guns, though! Since the 220mm gun on the RTX-440 turns out to be exactly the same size, I'm happy to consider that an unofficial "correction" to the consensus spec.

-- Mark

Forgot to check Gundam Century. Yes, that is 180mm as well.
The fun thing is, it says the Guntank's cannons as 280mm and the hand rocket launchers as 180mm, that'd be much more reasonable on something that big.
The 1/144+1/250 model(oldest one) didn't list the calibre, just saying it uses a large calibre cannon.
Measuring the 1/144 one gives me an inner diameter of 3mm, giving a 432mm scaled size. The 1/250 one simply does not have an inner bore, the outer diameter is a little less than 2mm, so the inner diameter would be around 1~1.5mm? That still gives us a 250~375mm calibre to scale.
Come to think of it, even a 180mm cannon would only be 1.8mm on a 1/100 model, I must say that will look ridiculously small if it is the Ball's or the Guntank's cannon. Even a 2.2mm would be pretty tiny.
The MG Ball has a 5~6mm? bore, that is seriously humongous but only that suits the picture design.

Thinking about this, wouldn't it be the size of the units that are incorrect?
Putting the Guntank aside, looking at Kunio's designs of the RB-79 and the SP-W03, I've always though the Ball's 12.8m figure is way too big. Inside the SP-W03 we can see a pretty clear pilot figure, thus it is only a 2m diameter ball. The current common image of the Ball gives it about 6m diameter, if we take the Ball as a minimal modification to the SP-W03, thus it is also a 2m diameter object, the size of the current Ball is pumped up about 2 times its original height. Dividing the 432mm figure from the old model by 2, we get something around 216mm, give or take a bit for error, the 180mm would highly likely be Kunio's original intention of a weapon suitable and probable for a 2~3m diameter weapon, which in turn is perfectly adaptable into the power suit idea of Gunboy.
We can see a trend of having silly sizes for ships popping up that are far different from what the animators use, usually the size in the specs looks smaller, so it may be that they took the specs from early design notes and published them, but the anime producing team, in all the chaos back then, used a different set of numbers that are much more reasonable and they sticked to that?

[toysdream]

I'm not sure how useful it's going to be to measure the actual cannon bore from the kits. A lot of the time, the openings are drawn too big in the first place; the diameters of mobile suit bazookas, for example, are typically about twice as wide as the actual shells.

In one of the other threads, I looked at the dimensions of the Gundam's hyper bazooka, which is wide enough for a 700mm shell as claimed in the original model sheet. The model sheet also indicates that the shell is 3.2 meters long by 700mm wide. But the magazine section in the back is only long enough for a shell half that size, so the current spec of 380mm seems to be accurate.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... azooka.jpg

On that principle, I'd be satisfied if the barrels in the model kits are only 2-3 times bigger than the listed specs!

As for the Ball, you can see in the comparison chart that, at the 6m size, its cannon is about the same size as the 08th MS Team's 180mm cannon or the Magella Top cannon. This seems at least internally consistent - and applying the "ten times bigger than human size" principle, it's the equivalent of a human soldier walking around with a handheld 20mm cannon.

The SP-W03 complicates things a bit, since it's always drawn with a visible (and very big) pilot. When Katoki revisited it to do a "Ver.Ka" based on the Master Grade kit, they used a 1/48 figure for the pilot, so I guess this means the SP-W03 is half the size of the Ball.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... var03b.jpg

-- Mark