Currently, this mobile suit's profile states that it can't use beam weapons because of insufficient reactor output, and this is one of the reasons it was dropped.
...But, this makes no sense. It has a reactor output of 1340 kW, which is more than both the Rick Dom, or, for that matter, the GM! What's goin' on here?
At least on paper, the R-2 appears to be superior to the Rick Dom in most areas. It doesn't have as much armor (which is not very useful in space combat anyways), but it accelerates much better and can use the same ranged weapons pretty much (possibly excepting the beam bazooka, but given it's higher reactor output...)
MS-06R-2 and beam weapons
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Gelgoog Jager
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm
Re: MS-06R-2 and beam weapons
Do not forget that the reactor is supposed to power up the entire MS, not simply provide energy directly for beam weapons. MS like Doms and High Mobility Zakus have not only have more powerful thrusters, but also in larger quantities, which in turn require more power to function.
More importantly, don't forget that Zeon didn't obtain E-CAP technology until late in the war, which allows MS with low generator output like the RGM-79 GM to use beam weapons. Before that, only amphibious MS or MA units, with much higher generator outputs and cooling capabilites, could power up mega particle beam weapons which required direct feed from the generator.
That being said, there do is one case of a MS-06R-2 using a beam rifle: the MS-06R-2P. It should be noted that this MS was used exclusively for testing purposes and in order to use a beam rifle, Zeon technicians incorporated the reactor and cooling system of a MS-14 Gelgoog (originally MS-11). The later renumbered MS-11 Act Zaku underwent the same modification and is also supposed to be capable of using a beam rifle. The later was even given the same power output of 1,440 kw to reflect the use of the same type of generator.
It is also quite likely that the modified MS-06D units, seen on U.C. 0088 and afterwards, have been upgraded from their original design to incorporate the same MS-14 generators with a power output of 1,440 kw, and at least one unit was confirmed to be capable of using a beam rifle.
The MS-09G Dowadge also has the same generator output, though only Rommel's custom Dowadge (MS-09H) was actually confirmed to be able to operate a beam cannon.
More importantly, don't forget that Zeon didn't obtain E-CAP technology until late in the war, which allows MS with low generator output like the RGM-79 GM to use beam weapons. Before that, only amphibious MS or MA units, with much higher generator outputs and cooling capabilites, could power up mega particle beam weapons which required direct feed from the generator.
That being said, there do is one case of a MS-06R-2 using a beam rifle: the MS-06R-2P. It should be noted that this MS was used exclusively for testing purposes and in order to use a beam rifle, Zeon technicians incorporated the reactor and cooling system of a MS-14 Gelgoog (originally MS-11). The later renumbered MS-11 Act Zaku underwent the same modification and is also supposed to be capable of using a beam rifle. The later was even given the same power output of 1,440 kw to reflect the use of the same type of generator.
It is also quite likely that the modified MS-06D units, seen on U.C. 0088 and afterwards, have been upgraded from their original design to incorporate the same MS-14 generators with a power output of 1,440 kw, and at least one unit was confirmed to be capable of using a beam rifle.
The MS-09G Dowadge also has the same generator output, though only Rommel's custom Dowadge (MS-09H) was actually confirmed to be able to operate a beam cannon.
Re: MS-06R-2 and beam weapons
I would assume that the power it can generate goes to some other system that doesn't leave enough left over to power beam weapons. Generator power has not ever really been that much of an indicator in the last 15 years at least for if a MS can use beam weapons or not. For example the Ground Type GM has a lower power output then many other models that come before and after it, yet it can power two beam sabers and a full size rifle on that little juice because it doesn't need a whole lot for the rest of the machine probably because it's a ground only MS and it would seem that gear for space use takes more power to use then ground pounders.
Re: MS-06R-2 and beam weapons
According to the original MSV kit manual, the first prototype unit of the MS-06R-2 was fitted with a high-output generator that was being developed for the MS-11 (later the MS-14 Gelgoog). The developers hoped it would be able to use beam weapons as a result, but its capacity was limited and most of the output was consumed by the machine's increased mobility (in other words, it went to power the thrusters). This unit was distinguished by its enlarged chest, and later sources specifically identified it as the MS-06R-2P.
According to the MSV kit manual, this prototype unit was later refitted with a simplified version of the MS-11 generator. Although it doesn't specifically discuss the other units, it's possible that this generator could have been installed in the remaining units as well.
As for the comparison to the Rick Dom: The R-2 type does have a higher power output, at least according to the specs from Gundam Mechanics. But when it comes to thrust, I think we should assume the Rick Dom has considerably more thrust than the official specs indicate. As we've discussed a few times before, the specs from Gundam 0080 and ZZ seem like a much better match for the performance these vintage machines display in the animation, and it does appear that their skirt and leg thrusters aren't included in the standard thruster tally. (The same goes for the MS-06R-1, so at least they're competing on an even footing.)
-- Mark
According to the MSV kit manual, this prototype unit was later refitted with a simplified version of the MS-11 generator. Although it doesn't specifically discuss the other units, it's possible that this generator could have been installed in the remaining units as well.
As for the comparison to the Rick Dom: The R-2 type does have a higher power output, at least according to the specs from Gundam Mechanics. But when it comes to thrust, I think we should assume the Rick Dom has considerably more thrust than the official specs indicate. As we've discussed a few times before, the specs from Gundam 0080 and ZZ seem like a much better match for the performance these vintage machines display in the animation, and it does appear that their skirt and leg thrusters aren't included in the standard thruster tally. (The same goes for the MS-06R-1, so at least they're competing on an even footing.)
-- Mark
Re: MS-06R-2 and beam weapons
A question this thread brought back to my mind: Was the RGM-79 GM's standard armament of a single beam saber and the beam spray gun brought about due to power issues or cost?
The former was the reason usually given back in the day, that the GM's reactor couldn't power a full on beam rifle and/or two beam sabers (Leading to much discussion about the well known animation of GM's with Gundam beam rifles at Jaburo
), which is why they only give it a single beam saber and the shorter ranged beam spray gun (Some quick and dirty searching through Mark's site led me to a Gundam Century note that the beam spray gun's "output was somewhat reduced in order to lower the Energy CAP's power consumption"). However, IIRC, there are some instances of GM's with twin beam sabers out there (Granted, from mangas, and I believe some of the model kits give this as an option, so consider the sources?). I also recall it being suggested that the beam spray gun was also cheaper (And quicker?) to build than full sized beam rifles while essentially being just as effective in combat, and the old Gundam Official profile pretty clearly says those changes were done for cost reasons without any mention of power issues in the description (Which isn't an unheard of problem for Gundam, as evidenced by Zeon's struggles to get beam weapons to MS, and later, the Hizack only being able to power one beam weapon at a time). After looking around, I'm thinking it's probably the latter reason, as nothing seems to mention the GM having any power issues, but I'm curious if that's something the Japanese sources have (Or had?) anything to say about the matter...
The former was the reason usually given back in the day, that the GM's reactor couldn't power a full on beam rifle and/or two beam sabers (Leading to much discussion about the well known animation of GM's with Gundam beam rifles at Jaburo
), which is why they only give it a single beam saber and the shorter ranged beam spray gun (Some quick and dirty searching through Mark's site led me to a Gundam Century note that the beam spray gun's "output was somewhat reduced in order to lower the Energy CAP's power consumption"). However, IIRC, there are some instances of GM's with twin beam sabers out there (Granted, from mangas, and I believe some of the model kits give this as an option, so consider the sources?). I also recall it being suggested that the beam spray gun was also cheaper (And quicker?) to build than full sized beam rifles while essentially being just as effective in combat, and the old Gundam Official profile pretty clearly says those changes were done for cost reasons without any mention of power issues in the description (Which isn't an unheard of problem for Gundam, as evidenced by Zeon's struggles to get beam weapons to MS, and later, the Hizack only being able to power one beam weapon at a time). After looking around, I'm thinking it's probably the latter reason, as nothing seems to mention the GM having any power issues, but I'm curious if that's something the Japanese sources have (Or had?) anything to say about the matter...I must betray Stalindog!!!
RPG TRINARY: Mash
Die Anti-brutale Kraft: mcred23 (Call me 'red', not 'mcred')
RPG TRINARY: Mash
Die Anti-brutale Kraft: mcred23 (Call me 'red', not 'mcred')
Re: MS-06R-2 and beam weapons
Everything I looked at says it's a matter of cost, or more generally "producibility". (An ugly word that's used a lot in the Japanese sources - I tend to phrase this as "ease of production" when I'm translating.) The MG GM kit manual says that the GM was actually designed with beam rifle use in mind, but they simply couldn't supply very many of them.
This does raise the question of why the RX-78-1 Gundam needed to have its generator upgraded to support beam rifle use. I guess it's possible that simply keeping two beam sabers online at once exerts a drain on the generator; this is part of the reason that's been given for the Hizack's problems, since it has to keep recharging its beam rifle E-CAPs. In that case, the GM could have been an ironic case where they ditched the spare beam saber so it would have enough spare power for the rifle, and then they couldn't build enough rifles anyway.
-- Mark
This does raise the question of why the RX-78-1 Gundam needed to have its generator upgraded to support beam rifle use. I guess it's possible that simply keeping two beam sabers online at once exerts a drain on the generator; this is part of the reason that's been given for the Hizack's problems, since it has to keep recharging its beam rifle E-CAPs. In that case, the GM could have been an ironic case where they ditched the spare beam saber so it would have enough spare power for the rifle, and then they couldn't build enough rifles anyway.
-- Mark
Re: MS-06R-2 and beam weapons
it was less power than cost and getting enough built in time to deploy with the new fleet the gm beam spray gun is more or less the beam rifle without the equipment needed to focus the beam for long range fire.
quote the wiki
quote the wiki
BR-M-79C-1 Beam Spray Gun
The Beam Spray Gun was essentially the Gundam's beam rifle in a smaller weaker form. The beam spray gun has a smaller focusing coil which results in a less powerful, and a more scattered shot. As a result of this the beam spray gun is less effective at long range, but is better at close range due to a more spread out shot, similar to a shotgun effect. While the beam spray gun is less powerful than the beam rifle, it has been shown to be able to penetrate the armor of a Rick Dom - one of the most heavily armored mobile suits of the One Year War.
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Gelgoog Jager
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm
Re: MS-06R-2 and beam weapons
By the way, considering that between the end of the OYW and the events of U.C. 0083, we don't see many GMs equipped with beam spray guns, can we assume that these weapons were either stored away during peace time, or are they simply difficult to mantain in working order, possibly due to their rushed production?
The GM itself had issues due to its rushed production:
Although the existing GM was an accident-prone machine due to its rushed development, there was still some resistance to the idea of using captured Zeon mobile suits "as is."
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ndam3.html
The GM itself had issues due to its rushed production:
Although the existing GM was an accident-prone machine due to its rushed development, there was still some resistance to the idea of using captured Zeon mobile suits "as is."
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ndam3.html
Re: MS-06R-2 and beam weapons
As per the MG GM kit manual:
-- Mark
...which implies that the widespread use of beam-resistant coating rendered the beam spray gun somewhat useless. I'm not sure if this coating was applied to the body of the Gelgoog, but according to the MG kit manual, it was definitely applied to the Gelgoog's shield.Beam Spray Gun
Compared to the beam rifle of the RX-78, it had a short firing range, but it demonstrated adequate effectiveness at close range. However, from the MS-14 onwards, many machines had beam-resistant coating applied to their armor, and it said that in many cases close combat became unavoidable.
-- Mark
Re: MS-06R-2 and beam weapons
Personally, I think it's just another way of artificially implying an inferior design on the part of the GMs among other factors. Economically speaking, it makes sense to just go with one. Beam sabers are backup weapons in the grand scheme of MS combat, so having one is already a contingency plan. Two probably just weren't thought necessary when the RGM-79 was made and MS warfare was basically in infancy.
I find it likely the case is similar for the beam spray gun, as an element to make the utter superiority of the White Base MS units a bit more plausible with the superior equipment they had access to.
As for power consumption, I wonder if a beam saber uses up very much energy being ignited - I've always heard that they were mounted in a recharge pack and had a battery life, rather than being constantly fed juice. I can imagine a beam rifle would need some tangible amount of power being given to it for the focusing and sighting mechanisms, but seeing as beam sabers remain ignited even when abandoned in an enemy mobile suit, I can't really imagine that their additional power drain is going to be a reason for leaving them out - after all, you could just charge one, then the other.
I find it likely the case is similar for the beam spray gun, as an element to make the utter superiority of the White Base MS units a bit more plausible with the superior equipment they had access to.
As for power consumption, I wonder if a beam saber uses up very much energy being ignited - I've always heard that they were mounted in a recharge pack and had a battery life, rather than being constantly fed juice. I can imagine a beam rifle would need some tangible amount of power being given to it for the focusing and sighting mechanisms, but seeing as beam sabers remain ignited even when abandoned in an enemy mobile suit, I can't really imagine that their additional power drain is going to be a reason for leaving them out - after all, you could just charge one, then the other.
The eternal underdog.
Re: MS-06R-2 and beam weapons
Below is the Zonography (Gundam Fix) version of some R2, not that there are too many of them to start with. Johnny is sold separately obviously, and there is no "twinstar of destruction" version yet.
The green one is MS-06-R2P, the testbed for beam weaponary, also the only one that has maintained the green color, the rest are issued to ace pilots and have customized paintjobs. The beam weapon does use a eclip system similar to Act-Zaku (MS-11) The pilot is also a technical personel related to the production companies.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/ ... final1.jpg
The green one is MS-06-R2P, the testbed for beam weaponary, also the only one that has maintained the green color, the rest are issued to ace pilots and have customized paintjobs. The beam weapon does use a eclip system similar to Act-Zaku (MS-11) The pilot is also a technical personel related to the production companies.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v707/ ... final1.jpg
