The Neo Zeon Fleet

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toysdream
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The Neo Zeon Fleet

There's really not a lot of technical info on the Neo Zeon ships from Zeta Gundam and Gundam ZZ (or the Titans ones, for that matter). In particular, it's never been very clear how big they're supposed to be - with the sole exception of the Gwanban class, whose overall length was pegged at 415 meters by Gundam 0083.

The other number that's been tossed around is 410 meters for the Endra class, as per an old Animedia magazine booklet. But this isn't very convincing - for one thing, it would make the gun turrets, Komusai, and other common features vastly bigger than the corresponding parts of the Gwanban, and the Endra itself would be enormous compared to the flagship-type Gwanban and every other warship of its era. What's more, in episode 34 we see a Psyco Gundam Mark II loaded onto the back of the Sandra, and the cargo deck is clearly shorter than the Psyco Gundam's mobile fortress form (so its head cover is folded back).

The Sadalahn, the new Neo Zeon flagship that appears in ZZ, is a complete mystery - or so I thought, until I noted this onscreen display around episode 45 of the series:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... ompare.jpg

This isn't necessarily an accurate comparison, but when we see the Sadalahn floating next to an Endra-class ship at the beginning of episode 27, it really does look way bigger. According to this graphic, it would be roughly twice as long as the Endra, just as the Dogosse Gier is twice as long as an Alexandria-class.

So here's a rough comparison of all these types...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... ompare.jpg

I've pegged the Endra at 300 meters, based on the Psyco Gundam scale comparison and the features it shares with the Gwanban. When you see it side by side with the latter ship, even that starts to seem overly generous, but honestly I think 0083 underestimated the Gwanban a little.

The Sadalahn, meanwhile, would be about 600 meters (twice the length of the Endra). As it turns out, this gives us just enough headroom for its mobile suit hangar, which the line art indicates is three times as high as a typical mobile suit.

-- Mark
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balofo
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

I always bring this point, so here it goes again:

-Endra, Gwanban and Sadalhn classes are supposed to have White Base/Argama style mega particle guns stored hidden on those circular hatches with yellow stripes. I believe there are lineart notes pointing this out, but these guns have no official lineart or have been ever used in animation. In G-Gen F the Gwanban is seen using a double Argama type mega particle gun from these hatches
-All these 3 are from different designers
-Funny thing is that the Queen Mansa is seen launching from the top circular hatch of the Gwanban in the anime
-Oh and the Sadalahn supposedly uses laser turrets, way before the Albion and the other 0083 era EFF ships. Release order wise that is

So did Axis base their ships on OYW/0083 EFF tech besides the obvious Zeon lineage?
toysdream
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

Yeah, those are definitely supposed to be mega particle cannons, although as you point out the Gwanban uses it like a cargo hatch instead. Given the number of occasions on which the Neo Zeons are intimidated by the Argama's devastating cannons, though, I'm becoming skeptical that there's really anything in there.

Otherwise, I'm not seeing much about these ships that seems very Federation-influenced; they don't even have external catapult decks, as the Gwadan did. If the Sadalahn is similar in size to the Dogosse Gier, it would be nice to think it's a direct response to the Federation's mightiest battleship, but it doesn't really look the part.

-- Mark
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balofo
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

I meant more in the weapons department, but I guess this is just a case of unused mech specifications that the animators/writers forgot about.

Very common in this franchise...

There's always hope we get some new Endra lineart/specs for UC OVA 7. Wishful thinking though.
toysdream
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

I wouldn't bet on it - so far, the novels and animation have given us new art for the Musaka and the Musai Kai, but no Endras.

Meanwhile, I noticed that the final episode of ZZ gives us a pretty good size comparison for the Sadalahn and the Nahel Argama when the two ships pull up next to each other...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... argama.jpg

Based on this comparison, the Sadalahn seems even bigger than I thought - about 700 meters overall. It's possible that the Nahel Argama is slightly foreshortened in this shot - we're getting a bit of curvature on the high mega cannon, a slight angle on the blocky shapes of the hull, and it looks a little wide overall - but that's still a pretty big ship.

Based on this, I've updated my previous scale comparison to make the Endra and Sadalahn 10% larger. That's about as big as I think we can make the Endra, while still keeping the cargo bay ceiling too low for the Psyco Gundam Mark II. This gives us a 330m Endra and a 660 meter Sadalahn, although the Nahel Argama comparison suggests we could make the Sadalahn even bigger...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... ompare.jpg

The Gwanban now looks pretty teeny, of course, but that was always a hazard. Based on the Gundam 0083 specs, the section underneath its forward mega particle cannon is only about 25m high, so there isn't actually room for the Queen Mansa to stand there. If we scaled it up to make room for the Queen Mansa, it would be about as big as the Sadalahn.

-- Mark
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

I hope this are useful for the comparison:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... etches.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... 4908ab.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... 5fa15e.jpg

I would also like to point out that in episode 12 the Endra ends up tangled up with La Vie en Rose, which might also provide some clues regarding its dimensions.

I do would like to point out that in this episode, the six red circles outside the Endra's hangar seem to have small barrels, which make me suspect that those were probably meant to be alser turrets at some point. The flagship bridge version seems to have two more red circles on either side of the bridge (I'm not sure if the regualr bridge version also has them though).

Regarding the Gwanban, does anyone know which hatch does the Neue Ziel uses in order to launch from it?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... 5ff8d7.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... 90c020.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... 4cb3b4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... 900068.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... 648c54.jpg

As you can see, the Neue Ziel is standing vertically inside the Gwanban's hangar. And for comparing with the Gwanban from ZZ:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... cf6395.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... 22f50d.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... 04b061.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ ... 9dd73c.jpg
toysdream
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

Good point about ZZ episode 12; based on this, I put together some detailed comparisons relative to La Vie En Rose itself.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... ompare.jpg

As usual, the dimensions and proportions of La Vie En Rose vary from source to source, but aside from the "flower" section and the length of the gantry arms, they don't actually vary that much. Having established the rough size of La Vie En Rose relative to the Albion and Argama, it seems pretty clear that the Endra is indeed between 300 and 330 meters long.

Meanwhile, I updated my Nahel Argama-to-Sadalahn comparison with better quality screenshots...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... argama.jpg

Based on this, it seems like the Sadalahn should be about 670-680 meters long. Factoring in that the Nahel Argama is a little further away (it passes above the Sadalahn in this sequence), and that we're viewing it at a slight angle, I think the "sweet spot" is probably about 330 meters for the Endra and 660 meters for the Sadalahn.

-- Mark
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

I have several questions about Neo Zeon ships:

-First of all, could the 8 red circles around the Endra's hull (6 around the MS hangar, 2 on top of the bridge) actually be laser guns, like the Sadalahn's?

-Also, would you happen to know if there are better pictures of the alternate Endra bridge? I particualrly would like to confirm what is on top of that bridge (main guns and secondary guns).

-In another thread you mentioned that the Rewloola's actual length was more like 350m instead of the official spec of 250m. I was wondering if this could also affect the official length of the Musaka crusiers, currently stated as 160m, which makes them only slightly longer than a cargo ship like the Garencieres (146m long).

-While at it, have you got estimates on the length of the Musai Kai and Chibe Kai from Gundam Unicorn, which are clearly based on the updated designs from MS Igloo?

-Finally, I was wondering what was the most accepted stance on the size of the Gwadan. In this thread you seemed more inclined on a length of 800m. And yet, images like this one seem to point that the Gwadan should be almost twice (including the rear protrusions) as long as the Dogosse Gier (around 600m long according to Unicorn's General Revil), which points more towards your other proposal of the Gwadan being somewhere around 960m long.

Edit: I know I already made a lot of questions, but if possible, could you please also make a comparison chart with the Dogosse Gier, General Revil, Sadalahn and Gwadan?
toysdream
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

Yeah, it seems pretty plausible that those small discs on the Endra would be anti-air laser guns. The regular type doesn't seem to have them on the bridge, though. Incidentally, Nagano drew similar widgets on the flanks of the Gwanban (two on each side, for a total of four).


And yes, the Gundam Front Tokyo display does specify that the Rewloola is actually 350 meters. There are probably a few ways to estimate its "actual" size - the dimensions of the mobile suit hangar, its relative size compared to the Alpha Azieru, the transport ship comparison in the model sheet, etc. As we've been seeing, these are all a bit variable but do tend to lead you to a reasonable estimate at the end. But I think I'm happy with 350 meters in the meantime.

Actually, aside from a couple of cases in the Gundam 0083 specs, it seems that when ship dimensions are retconned it tends to be by adding or subtracting 100 meters. For example, the Nahel Argama was originally said to be 280 meters long, and now it's 380 meters. So if we want to give the Musaka a more plausible length, we could just skip all the measuring and promote it to 260 meters - right in between the Musai and the Endra.


Speaking of which, after all this measuring and scaling, I think the simplest solution to the Endra mystery is to subtract 100 meters and say it's 310 meters long. This matches very nicely to the Psyco Gundam and La Vie En Rose comparisons, and it's certainly the simplest arbitrary adjustment we could apply. As you'll see in my updated comparison graphic, I measured that onscreen graphic from ZZ episode 45 and found that the Sadalahn is shown as being 2.1 times longer than the Endra...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... ompare.jpg

This indicates that the Sadalahn is roughly 650 meters long, which meshes pretty well with its onscreen comparison to the Nahel Argama.


Regarding the Musai Kai and Chivvay Kai, these are based on the MS Igloo versions and drawn from the same angles, so it should be pretty easy to compare. The Musai's probably no bigger - aside from those little tail fins - but it might be interesting to measure out the Chivvay Kai.


And as for the Gwadan, the problem is that when we see two ships in space, we can't be sure whether one of them is closer (and thus bigger) unless we can see that they're side by side. For example, in the Zeta Gundam movies we see the Argama right alongside the Gwadan...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... gwadan.jpg

One thing you'll notice here is that the catapult decks of both ships are the same width, which makes a lot of sense. In fact, when you start comparing ships, you'll see that this is actually one of the most consistent points of comparison (and a telltale sign that the Gwadan and the Dogosse Gier aren't necessarily to scale in that screenshot). So if we scale the Argama and the Gwadan accordingly, like this...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... ompare.jpg

We get a length of approximately 750 meters for the Gwadan.

-- Mark
toysdream
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

Apologies for the self-update, but I think I have some interesting things here...

Prompted by Gelgoog Jager, I dug into the Gundam Unicorn line art and added a few things to my Gwadan/Argama comparison chart.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... ompare.jpg

For one thing, I added the MS Igloo-style Chivvay and Gundam Unicorn's Chivvay Kai. This shows that the Chivvay Kai is roughly 360 meters long - a hundred meters more than the original version - and that its catapult matches the standard width dimensions perfectly.

I also added the Rewloola, at its "revised" length of 350 meters, and saw immediately that its hangar and catapult are way too small even at this bigger size. The catapults are about 10 meters wide - half the standard width - and there's barely 15 meters of headroom in the mobile suit hangar! Good luck fitting a Sazabi in there.

So I applied the simplest fudge factor I could think of, and simply doubled the Rewloola's official length to 500 meters. This gives us catapults of almost standard width, and about 25 meters of headroom in the hangar, just enough for the Sazabi or Sinanju. You'll see that the gun turrets, hangar doors, and other features are also much better matched to other ships at this size. What's more, this matches Katoki's comment that the Rewloola is meant to be bigger than the Ra Cailum!

I suppose we could assume the same is true for the Musaka, and simply double its length to 320 meters (a little more than the Endra). But basing things on the catapults seems to be working well so far, so I may do a more detailed analysis.

-- Mark
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BrentD15
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

Nice!
Will you also do the Titans warships (Salamis Kai, Alexandria, Dogosse Giar, etc.)?
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toysdream
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

I think we hashed out the Salamis series pretty conclusively in this previous thread. Here are a couple of comparison graphics, with and without markup...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison1.jpg
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison2.jpg

That thread led us to the weird but pretty convincing conclusion that the Salamis Kai from Gundam 0083 is actually about 300 meters long. If we use the "add a hundred meters" method for correcting specs, I guess that would make it 298 meters.

I do want to do a study on the Alexandria and Dogosse Giar, though (which will also include the Gaunland and General Revil, for which we have precise length specs). I'll throw in the Salamis Kai while I'm at it.

-- Mark
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BrentD15
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

Alright.
How many of the Alexandria refits are you going to include?
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

I have yet so see how big the new MA of Full Frontal is, but I think it makes sense for the Rewloola to be much bigger (500m) if it can internally hold a unit much larger than a MS.

Some of these new lengths could also mean that some of these ships might have higher or lower MS capacities than we originally took for granted. The Musaka should be able to carry more than just 4 MS if it is 320m long, as MAHQ's profile currently indicates.

On the other hand, it no longer sounds feasible for the Gwadan to store 100 MS on board if it is only 750m long. The Gwadan is not like the Dolos, a dedicated MS carrier that could carry over a 100 MS, but more of a dedicated battleship like the Gwazine, which could only hold around 20 MS.

Ironically, while the new lengths of the Musaka and Rewloola sound more realistic, they make it further difficult to explain how Char's movement was able to finance the construction of their fleet. I do have a new theory about the Musakas at least:

I'm considering that much like the Geara Doga is an slightly updated design from the First Neo Zeon War, the Musakas might also be remnants from Haman's forces. After all, we don't see even half of the ships participating in the final battle at Axis, and we just assumed they were all Endras. While this could be true for Haman's forces, from which we do see a large number of Endras, it might not be the same for Glemy's forces, from which we only see a the Sandra and Gwanban.

Considering that Glemy had access to Axis' armory and many experimental MS, such as the Dooben Wolf, MP Qubeley's and even the Queen Mantha, he should also have had access to the any new ships being developed at Axis, in this case, the Musakas, which could have even made up most of his fleet. I should also point out that Glemy's fleet is not destroyed on screen: they are last seen on episode 44, with Glemy still on board the Gwanban, and by ep 45 all his forces, along himself are already inside Axis, from which they only deploy MS afterwards.

Maybe he intended to save his fleet for fighting the EF after defeating Haman, much like how the backstory of the Silver Bullet indicates that he had leftover Dooben Wolf units inside Axis, which he was probably also saving for the battle against the EF.

Anyway, Glemy eventually orders to ram Axis itself into Core 3, at which point any remaining ships were probably ordered to evacuat before the impact, and upon learning of Glemy's death, they just left the battlefield. Also, any of his remaining forces still inside Axis after his death would have probably used any remaining ships to evacuate, possibily leaving the MS behind, which are the ones the EF found.

In such scenario, Char could have later rallied the remaining forces from Glemy's fleet, which probably had few or no MS left after these were spent defending Axis, and would only have to finance the cosntruction of a new flagship: the Rewloola.

Also, as I have pointed out in other threads, the Geara Doga was probably the rival design that competed and lost against the Dooben Wolf, instead fo the Zaku III, as indicated by the later's profile. It would make more sense for Glemy's forces to have kept this data with them than the remnants of Haman's forces, which didn't have access to Axis during the civil war. When they joined Char, they handed him the data which ended up being used by Anahiem to mass produce it for Char's forces.
toysdream
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

Wow, that's an interesting theory! Obviously there's no detailed info on the Musaka's development in any of the Japanese books, so I think that's as good a suggestion as any. The idea of Char's Neo Zeon as inheriting the remnants of Glemy's forces has a lot of potential... let's think about this some more. Certainly, they seem to have continued Glemy's NZ series where it left off with the Queen Mansa.


As far as mobile suit capacities for the various ships, I think we had a thread about this before where I rounded up the figures from various RPGs and strategy games. But at risk of redundancy, the Gwadan's capacity is pegged at 60 mobile suits in the Gundam Sentinel RPG and Tsukuda Hobby's board games. These two sources put the Sadalahn at 30 or 32 mobile suits, respectively, and the Gwanban at 18 or 24. Both of them say the Endra can carry 12 mobile suits; the Tsukuda Hobby games put the Rewloola at 16 and the Musaka at 9.

In Gundam Unicorn, the capacities of the Rewloola and Musaka seem a bit lower. The Rewloola apparently carries 12 suits, and when they're estimating the strength of the Neo Zeon fleet at the end, they assume that all the Musakas are carrying 6 mobile suits apiece. Since Char's Neo Zeon fleet has 13 Musakas and carries 85 mobile suits, the math kind of suggests they need to be able to carry 6 machines each.

-- Mark
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

By the way, since you proved that ships of the Salamis class and its variants, including the Salamis Kai from 0083, should be around 298m long, can we also rule out the Birmingham's original length of only around 398m?

IIRC I read somewhere that the Dogosse Gier originally was the second ship of the Birmingham class. Maybe the Birmingham is actually around 600m long, just like its Dogosse Gier derivatives.
toysdream
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

I'm not really bothered either way. I don't think any other ship or mobile suit ever interacts directly with the Birmingham, so it terms of story logic, it actually doesn't matter how big it is. I suppose, in terms of Federation ego, it would be silly to build a shiny new flagship that was was smaller than Zeon's Gwazine class. But that's what the 0083 staff would have us believe...

Meanwhile, I think I've hashed out the Alexandria series. Here's a scaled comparison to V Gundam's Gaunland, with an overlay showing the common features:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... unland.jpg

This indicates that the standard Alexandria is 288 meters long. I'd normally hedge and say 285-290 meters, but it's too tempting to take that discarded spec for the Salamis class and attribute it to the Alexandria instead. (This is also the hull length of the Argama, as per the EX Model specs.)

I've added the Gaunland and Alexandria to my current size comparison:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... ompare.jpg

I think that's a pretty satisfying size for the Alexandria, putting it in the same size class as Zeon's Chivvay-class heavy cruiser. This also gives us a second reference point for the Dogosse Giar, which is coming up next.

-- Mark
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Chris
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

toysdream wrote:I'm not really bothered either way. I don't think any other ship or mobile suit ever interacts directly with the Birmingham, so it terms of story logic, it actually doesn't matter how big it is.
I haven't watched 0083 in a long time, but wasn't the Birmingham on screen with (or at least in close proximity to) the Lili Marleen right when they were discovered by the Albion's MS team?
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

The Gaunland is quite an odd bird, isn't it? It looks to me like what would happen if the old Alexandria and the Ra Kalium had a baby ship. :P
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Re: The Neo Zeon Fleet

Well, that's something to check out, although as we saw with the Dogosse Gier/Gwadan comparison it's hard to be sure you're actually seeing all the ships at the same distance.

Meanwhile, I've updated the graphic again to include the Dogosse Gier, Birmingham, and General Revil...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... ompare.jpg

As we've already discussed, the Birmingham is freakishly tiny. But since we can size the Alexandria based on the Gaunland, and the Dogosse Gier based on the Alexandria (since there's a scale comparison in the original model sheet), we can thus arrive at an approximate size for the Dogosse Gier, which turns out to be roughly 590 meters.

And then we can throw in the General Revil, at its official length of 630 meters, and compare it against the 590-meter Dogosse Gier. As it turns out, the proportions of the two ships match perfectly. We get the exact same size for the Dogosse Gier whether we're measuring up from the Alexandria and Gaunland, or down from the General Revil!

I think this is probably just a lucky break, given how sloppy and inconsistent these specs usually are, but on those rare occasions when all the stars align perfectly we'd be fools not to accept it. I declare the dimensions of the Alexandria and Dogosse Gier to be solved!

-- Mark
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