The Macross Valkyrie Thread

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:14 am

Say, when did the slab-like chest of the VF-1 is replaced by shapes more round and cockpit-like in latter Valkyrie? As I see it, it changed as soon as the VF-X3. And is this because the VF-1 has the surface behind the cockpit split into only two parts instead of three?

And what is the legacy of the YF-30? Did the VF-31 learn anything from it?

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:16 am

False Prophet wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:14 am
Say, when did the slab-like chest of the VF-1 is replaced by shapes more round and cockpit-like in latter Valkyrie? As I see it, it changed as soon as the VF-X3. And is this because the VF-1 has the surface behind the cockpit split into only two parts instead of three?
Now, I suppose, would be as good a time as any to note that the VF-X3 Medusa and the other designs from FamilySoft's Macross videogames from the 90's are all non-canon. (FamilySoft's games had no involvement from Macross's creators.)

There is a VF-X-3 in canon, however. Like the VF-X-2, it was a rival program to the main fighter of its generation that was never animated and only exists as mentions in the development history of the design that beat it (in this case, the VF-X-4/VF-4). The canon VF-X-3 competed against the VF-X-4 to be the 2nd Generation main VF, and it was tipped to win the design competition due to its superior atmospheric performance prior to the Zentradi Army orbital bombardment near the end of the First Space War wiping out the developer. The only thing that survived was a single part that had been contracted out to a factory in a space colony and a handful of photographs of the prototype. Consequently, as the sole design team standing at the end of the war, Stonewell/Bellcom's VF-X-4 got a victory-by-default and the VF-4 became the 2nd Generation main VF of the (New) UN Forces.

(The non-canon FamilySoft trilogy's VF-X3 Medusa was a design cobbled together by the SDF-1 Macross's own onboard factory using a mixture of VF-1 Valkyrie and Destroid parts in an attempt to make a more effective space variable fighter that resulted in an aircraft that was so dangerously unstable it was deemed unusable.)


With respect to cockpit and upper torso shapes of early VF designs, contours of the upper torso became less flat pretty much right away after the VF-1 Valkyire. That said, that's more a question of the shape of the panels the upper torso is shaped from. The VF-1's cockpit orientation was the standard until the 4th Generation, though an assortment of deviations did occur. The VF-4 was the only major deviation until the 3rd Generation, since it did not change the vertical orientation of the cockpit at all... it just slid backwards until the chair was aligned at its centerline. The 3rd Generation's VF-14 and VF-17 were the first ones to really change it up, with the former's decision to move the cockpit to the back but otherwise keep a largely traditional layout, and the latter's VF-4-inspired but better-protected design that was carried over into the VF-171 for the 4th Generation. The VF-19 followed the VF-14's style with the cockpit landing on the back rather than front of the torso, and the 5th Gen VFs followed suit for the most part, though they put the wing surface between the cockpit and the rest of the world to improve its defensive ability. (Excl. the YF-30 and VF-31, which do the VF-4/VF-17 thing where the cockpit does not change orientation and sits near the front of the torso under the chin.)



False Prophet wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:14 am
And what is the legacy of the YF-30? Did the VF-31 learn anything from it?
You could say the VF-31 learned a lot from it... since the VF-31 was developed from the YF-30.

Some of its proprietary features didn't make the transition to the economized mass production model, such as the YF-30's improved version of the fold wave system (dubbed the "Fold Dimensional Resonance" system). Its general design and transformation remained the same, though they did move the arms out into the wings to let them use part of the wing as an anti-projectile shield for the forearm and to make room for the railguns. It kept the same ARIEL II "Brunhilde" airframe control package that the YF-30 had inherited from the YF/VF-25 (think a mixture of the learning computer and AMBAC systems of a MS, it turns all the joystick-waggling and pedal-pushing into limb movements), but it downgraded much of the other hardware (incl. engines) to less expensive "off the shelf" gear originally developed for the VF-25. It kept the YF-30's most revolutionary feature, the ordnance container, that modularized most of the fighter's mission capability. It also kept the same EGP-03/05 EX-Gear-based controls the YF-30 inherited from the YF/VF-25.

(The VF-31 Siegfried custom model re-upgraded the engines to a detuned version of the same engine used on the YF-30 and installed a fold wave system, the system the YF-30's Fold Dimensional Resonance system was based on.)
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:27 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:16 am
With respect to cockpit and upper torso shapes of early VF designs, contours of the upper torso became less flat pretty much right away after the VF-1 Valkyire. That said, that's more a question of the shape of the panels the upper torso is shaped from. The VF-1's cockpit orientation was the standard until the 4th Generation, though an assortment of deviations did occur. The VF-4 was the only major deviation until the 3rd Generation, since it did not change the vertical orientation of the cockpit at all... it just slid backwards until the chair was aligned at its centerline. The 3rd Generation's VF-14 and VF-17 were the first ones to really change it up, with the former's decision to move the cockpit to the back but otherwise keep a largely traditional layout, and the latter's VF-4-inspired but better-protected design that was carried over into the VF-171 for the 4th Generation. The VF-19 followed the VF-14's style with the cockpit landing on the back rather than front of the torso, and the 5th Gen VFs followed suit for the most part, though they put the wing surface between the cockpit and the rest of the world to improve its defensive ability. (Excl. the YF-30 and VF-31, which do the VF-4/VF-17 thing where the cockpit does not change orientation and sits near the front of the torso under the chin.)
Thanks! I have always been fascinated by the different in shape of different Valkyries, but it seems like there are only a few people who are insterested in that thing

And also, what about the head? Why was the VF-1A the only one with that distinctive mono-eye?
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:16 am
Some of its proprietary features didn't make the transition to the economized mass production model, such as the YF-30's improved version of the fold wave system (dubbed the "Fold Dimensional Resonance" system). Its general design and transformation remained the same, though they did move the arms out into the wings to let them use part of the wing as an anti-projectile shield for the forearm and to make room for the railguns. It kept the same ARIEL II "Brunhilde" airframe control package that the YF-30 had inherited from the YF/VF-25 (think a mixture of the learning computer and AMBAC systems of a MS, it turns all the joystick-waggling and pedal-pushing into limb movements), but it downgraded much of the other hardware (incl. engines) to less expensive "off the shelf" gear originally developed for the VF-25. It kept the YF-30's most revolutionary feature, the ordnance container, that modularized most of the fighter's mission capability. It also kept the same EGP-03/05 EX-Gear-based controls the YF-30 inherited from the YF/VF-25.

(The VF-31 Siegfried custom model re-upgraded the engines to a detuned version of the same engine used on the YF-30 and installed a fold wave system, the system the YF-30's Fold Dimensional Resonance system was based on.)
Did the change in arm arrangement also make the cranked arrow of the YF-30 changed into a forward-swept wings? I looked up for it, and found this picture: http://i.imgur.com/ojpkzZm.jpg

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:20 am

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:27 am
Thanks! I have always been fascinated by the different in shape of different Valkyries, but it seems like there are only a few people who are insterested in that thing
I've always loved studying the development process that goes into creating shows, so I've put a lot of time in against Kawamori-sensei's designs for Macross. I've never found another series that put so much actual consideration into its mechanical designs... not even Gundam.


False Prophet wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:27 am
And also, what about the head? Why was the VF-1A the only one with that distinctive mono-eye?
Technically, it wasn't... for a couple different reasons:
  • In one sense, it could be argued that none of the variants of the VF-1 Valkyrie had monitor turrets with a mono-eye configuration since they had a variety of different camera systems operating in concert.
  • In another sense, you could argue that ALL of them except the VF-1D are mono-eye designs since only the VF-1D has more than one main camera system in the head.
  • The A-type head was the standard configuration used on most variants of the VF-1 Valkyrie, the ones that didn't are much rarer.
That said, there were a number of units with similar "single polarized cover" monoeye designs... such as the VF-0A, VF-0C, Sv-51 (though it's hidden under a barred protective cover), VF-3000S, VF-11A/B/C, VF-19P, YF-21, etc., though the vast majority of VFs fall under the first two criteria above. Barring tandem cockpit units with two main cameras, there are only a handful I can recall that are acknowledged as having multiple main camera systems like the VF-25F.


False Prophet wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:27 am
Did the change in arm arrangement also make the cranked arrow of the YF-30 changed into a forward-swept wings? I looked up for it, and found this picture: http://i.imgur.com/ojpkzZm.jpg
Nah. The VF-31 Siegfried used by the protagonists in Macross Delta is an aftermarket custom job that the Χάος Corporation did in-house (under the name Χάος Valkyrie Works) for one group: their Ragna branch office's 3rd Fighter Wing's Delta Flight. Only five units customized to that spec, because the customization involved adding some seriously expensive non-standard hardware and boosting performance past what that original airframe was stress-tested for. Part of the customization involved changing the wings to a forward swept configuration.

The VF-31A Kairos is the "stock" configuration built by Surya Aerospace that is intended for mass production 2-3 years down the road from Macross Delta's events. It has a delta wing configuration that's virtually identical to the YF-30 and YF-24's.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm
's all greek to me... believe it or not, I've never managed to get all the way through Gundam SEED. Kira just irritates me for some reason I can't put my finger on.
A decade ago, I saw SEED Series as the nadir.
Only AGE came to save it...by being worse than SEED, A few of my friends are acutally rather sympathetic to or even like AGE, but for me, SEED is barely watchable, watching AGE is already a torture.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm
I'm not entirely sure what aspect of it you're referring to.

The creators of Macross Frontier didn't use the term "monkey model" to describe it, but the VF-25's official development history does explicitly indicate that the New UN Government and New UN Forces had withheld key technological advances from the YF-24 Evolution specifications that they transmitted to the emigrant fleets and planetary governments. Macross Dynamite 7 had also established the existence of arms export restrictions and monkey models years before Macross Frontier came out. Macross the Ride just built on both of those when it established that the Macross Frontier fleet couldn't get around arms export restrictions that were preventing widespread deployment of the VF-19 and had to work within the law by developing a monkey model from the VF-19E.
It sounds like "limited tech transfer for YF-24" rather than sending blueprint of (much) downgraded version.

Also, even VF-19EF are said to be VF-19E Monkey Model, its spec is still very close to Brauchitsch's VF-19A which also participated Vanquish Race of 2058 and claimed to be a hard-to-handle Earth Spec VF-19A. I assume (N)UN only downgraded things like avionics and software, like what has mentioned in the background, not the hardware.

On withholding key technological advances of YF-24, the defining element of 5-Gen is ISC. Advanced AI for ISC management is another if taking Master File VF-25 into account.
Considering that the detail of ISC is strictly confidential and it would self-destruct if not removed properly (Master File VF-25), perhaps NUN withhold ISC-related technologies only.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm
Now THAT would be inconsistent with what the official explanations of fold fault say they can cause... but it may be based on an early explanation of dimension eater weapons where it was suggested they produced a temporary fold fault in realspace that collapsed back into fold space. The later, official explanations changed it into being only a weaponized, super-intense fold effect.
I checked both Vol.2 and Vol.4, the novel used an older explanation.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm
Well, we know for a fact in official canon that the ancient Protoculture have done that at least on a level which would permit them to isolate individual planets. Uroboros seems to have had an intense, artificial fold fault for isolating the planet and preventing anyone from unsealing the Fold Evil they'd buried under the Madis glacier on the planet's surface. The ability, like many other overtechnology developments, may have been based on their study of the Vajra... who ARE known to be able to produce artificial fold faults and employ them as a defensive barrier. (See Macross Chronicle Technology Sheet 08A "Space Folds".)
The novel took one step further: Fold Evil was the fusion of Evil technologies and quartz...
Too bad that Fold Evil was nothing more than a background and something that must be sealed again in the novel.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm
Macross Chronicle is, somewhat unhelpfully, in two minds about the consequences of passing through fold faults. I'd assume the reason for the discrepancy is that fold faults come in different severities. In some cases it describes them as being impassible and that ships trying could be destroyed trying, while in others it asserts that ships can pass through them but with a great increase in the disparity between subjective and objective time for the folding ship and/or a risk of being damaged or destroyed. Frustratingly, sometimes both explanations of fold faults appear side-by-side on the same page. The Macross Frontier TV series also played it both ways, when they were talking about sending the Macross Quarter to Gallia IV. The projected course showed a course in which the ship would pass through some fold faults while avoiding others. The only logical explanation I can think of for this is that some fold faults are more severe than others, and thus some are outright impassable while the rest are more like annoying or slightly dangerous. Macross Chronicle does suggest that fold faults are found all around the galaxy, and that human technology simply wasn't developed enough to detect them properly when they first started out. (The Zentradi, according to Kawamori, have known about fold faults all along but since a fold fault doesn't fit into their "enemy or not" mindset they ignored them.)
A war-like, enemy-or-not mindset is normal for a race bred for combat, but ignoring no-go zone?
This is outright reckless.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm
Uroboros's "Uroboros Aurora" fold fault was described as the impassible type, which would support Mina's theory, though it seemed to have deteriorated to the point of only intermittently protecting the planet. Windermere IV was also conspicuously isolated by fold faults around the entire planet, and that was also known to be a former Protoculture domain. It seems too much to be a coincidence, IMO.
The aurora is impassable for physical objects, luckily it is passable for sunlight. The ecosystem would die out long time ago if the aurora has worked so perfectly.
For Windermere IV, maybe Protoculture didn't want Star Singer fell into the hands of others, taking total control of Zentradi, though Protoculture couldn't halt the advance of Zentradi obviously and seemed die out or abandon the galaxy.

It is established that Cluster is surrounded by faults, Master File VF-31 elaborated that Protoculture created these faults deliberately, intended to use the Cluster as some kind of natural reserves (few of my friends even called the cluster is a provolve lab) or fortress.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm
Official sources do suggest the ancient Protoculture were grappling with ways to overcome the fold fault problem that was one of the major factors in their Stellar Republic becoming so spread out that it split in two and started its civil war. Fold quartz was apparently the magic bullet solution to the problem.

I think the "nodes" they're talking about are the point-to-point fold portals the ruins in the Brisingr cluster were creating, which Walkure used to reach, and escape, Windermere IV. They seem to be zero-time fold portals to connect the Brisingr cluster, which would eliminate the fold fault problem altogether.
Nodes are not the portals generated by the ruins in Cluster, they are entirely different features, something like Jump Nodes from Freespace Series or Jump Points in Star Citizen, but possibly made by Protoculture.
However, it only appeared in Master File. I hope Kawamori or Kodachi may use it in future stories, as this can also explain why DE-carrying 47th Task Force reached the cluster near the end of Delta, if the task force was dispatched from somewhere outside the Cluster.

I don't think NUNS would be ignorant enough to store DE or MDE in a backwater cluster, so the DE intended to be deployed on Ragna were brought to the cluster from somewhere else.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm
Let's be fair to TOMYTEC... the Macross Frontier series and Macross Delta series have both had their PMC protagonists badmouthing the NUNS. (Ozma, at least, had good reason for bad feeling since he ended up cashiered out of the service for assaulting one of the 117th Research Fleet's sponsors.)
Not counting all known operations before Battle of Ragna that NUNS was unable to do much, NUNS bombed the ruin undersea with a directional nuke and somehow it could toast Hayate's VF-31J in the sky...if I am a Xaos employee and/or Cluster native, I have tons of reason to get angry.

Unable to stop the advance of Windermere
Deploying a nuke near friendly city
Almost get a buddy in sky toasted by nuclear fire, where was the directional thing gone?

These were reasons from the first 13 episodes only...
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:04 pm
It felt a bit hypocritical to me, for Ozma to talk down about the NUNS when the only thing preventing them from being able to fight the Vajra effectively was not having VF-25s yet... VF-25s that Ozma and all of the SMS branch from Macross Frontier had on loan from the NUNS for testing.
Got discharged that is tantamount to dishonorable one, losing veterans' benefit and right to vote on "direct-ruled planets like Earth" etc. because of punching an cruel CEO (that he could kill 11 years later), Ozma was 16 years old at that time. Time passes, but that bad feeling may still in his heart.
Last edited by Phonix_1 on Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:26 pm

False Prophet talked about VF-31 and YF-30, this reminds me the description from Hasegawa VF-31A Manual. One point draws my attention.

"Instead of using rare fold quartz which are fitted on Delta Squad variants, VF-31A use fold carbon in the fold device."
The introduction of the model mentions fold carbon containers are fitted behind the cockpit.

Fold device.
Fold Wave System and FDR on YF-30 are not installed on VF-31A, since they require quartz to operate. VF-31A can't fold without the fold booster, unlike VF-27 (if VF-27 from Antares seemed fold without boosters in Frontier Episode 7 considered as canon).
Yet, the special equipments section provides nothing about the usage of fold carbon.

Even with the (still non-canon and hard-to-use) enhancement configuration or simply using more carbon to push the performance of fold device (Master File VF-25), carbon-based ISC may not perform as well as quartz-based one.
Energy issue plagued the ISC development, I assume that other than using quartz, the reasons VF-25 can operate ISC are high-output FF-3001 engines and the incredible capacitor on-board (1/24 of the volume and 120 times of the capacitance, comparing to that on VF-1) at first. However, this may made the chase for quartz like a joke, though quartz are still useful for specialized equipments or DE.

Kaiba suggests that VF-31A may use some kind of carbon-based fold amps for supporting Walkure, but if combat-orientated VF-31A stationed at Elysium are fitted with fold amps, the manual would specify it.

No Fold Wave System/FDR
No Fold ability
Slim chance for carbon-based ISC
Unclear status for Fold Amps

Is there any other possibility for the fold device in manual?

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:28 pm

Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
It sounds like "limited tech transfer for YF-24" rather than sending blueprint of (much) downgraded version.
They're pretty clear on it being transmission of the design schematics and specifications for the final YF-24 Evolution prototype itself, rather than a selection of new technological developments made for it. Exactly what they withheld is unknown, but given that the fighter most often compared to it in terms of its overall performance is the YF-29 it must've been some seriously OP hardware.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
Also, even VF-19EF are said to be VF-19E Monkey Model, its spec is still very close to Brauchitsch's VF-19A which also participated Vanquish Race of 2058 and claimed to be a hard-to-handle Earth Spec VF-19A. I assume (N)UN only downgraded things like avionics and software, like what has mentioned in the background, not the hardware.
Well, there's no denying the VF-19A spec was hard-to-handle... that was the variant that killed the plans to adopt the VF-19 as next main fighter stone dead due to loss-of-control problems.

That said, I don't recall Oscar Brauhitsch's VF-19A "Brauhitsch Special" being mentioned as being close to its Earth/Federal forces specification. I do recall them mentioning it was an extensively modified VF-19A that incorporated advancements from the later VF-19C and VF-19P types (the latter of which was also a monkey model VF-19) and was rumored to be a repurposed prototype from an aborted VF-19 Service Life Extension Plan.

The VF-19EF Caliburn's profile mentions that its design includes limiters on some mechanisms, but it doesn't say which ones. I would assume there are probably both hardware and software downgrades in play, but I'd say likely more software than hardware. Likely the same kind of downgrades found on the VF-19P, like that the fire control system was downgraded to increase the time needed for target acquisition, etc.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
On withholding key technological advances of YF-24, the defining element of 5-Gen is ISC. Advanced AI for ISC management is another if taking Master File VF-25 into account.
Considering that the detail of ISC is strictly confidential and it would self-destruct if not removed properly (Master File VF-25), perhaps NUN withhold ISC-related technologies only.
Macross Chronicle identifies three key traits of 5th Generation Variable Fighters, though there are technically four:
  • Inertia Store Converter technology, which removes the last major barrier to VF performance by protecting the cockpit from excessively high g-forces that would otherwise injure or kill the pilot.
  • EXtender Gear, a new integrated control system that combines the functions of the VF's normal controls and ejection seat with dynamic g-force resistance functions, precision control enhancement via electromyographic sensing and force-feedback, life support functions, and independent operation in the form of a flight-capable powered suit.
  • ARIEL II-based avionics, using an evolution of the ARIEL advanced airframe control AI package the 4th Generation VFs employed to manage all aspects of HMI interaction and body kinesthetics.
  • Stage II thermonuclear reaction turbine engines, a new generation of engine technology offering twice the output of the previous generation made usable only by the introduction of ARIEL II, EX-Gear, and ISC.
It's mentioned in Macross Chronicle that both ISC and EX-Gear were developed at the same time for the YF-24 Evolution and are intended for complimentary use, so it's safe to assume that both of those were included in the data transmitted to the emigrant forces. Since ARIEL II was also developed to operate with both of those technologies and Stage II engines, it's safe to assume both of those were also included in the shared data.

I suspect the omissions were in things like design refinements that would permit the kind of performance seen on the /FC1 and /FC2 engines, ways to improve ISC buffer capacity, etc., such that while the basic design concepts were communicated the fleets would only be able to build inferior copies of the Federal forces hardware and have to work out the rest on their own.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
The novel took one step further: Fold Evil was the fusion of Evil technologies and quartz...
Too bad that Fold Evil was nothing more than a background and something that must be sealed again in the novel.
I recalled that much from the game, yeah... the Fold Evil was an incredibly scary thing, and I'm not at all surprised the Protoculture realized it was a terrible idea and sealed it away. I'm actually amazed that the builders of it were dumb enough to go ahead and build it after what happened last time... the Protodeviln and all, y'know?

Like, didn't someone in what was left of their Stellar Republic stop and ask themselves "Aren't we doing a thing that's suspiciously like what destroyed our entire civilization?"


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
A war-like, enemy-or-not mindset is normal for a race bred for combat, but ignoring no-go zone?
This is outright reckless.
Some (most?) fold faults can be navigated through, so they're not overtly harmful. The basic programming the Zentradi are given doesn't exactly bestow an interrogative mindset, it's designed to prevent them from thinking outside the box so they'll consistently obey orders like good little disposable clone soldiers. They might understand on some level that the fold faults are a problem, but since they're not an enemy they're not a priority to the Zentradi.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
The aurora is impassable for physical objects, luckily it is passable for sunlight. The ecosystem would die out long time ago if the aurora has worked so perfectly.
That's the bit that practically screams "this is a construct!"... it works exactly like a fault fold barrier generated by a larger Vajra bioform.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
For Windermere IV, maybe Protoculture didn't want Star Singer fell into the hands of others, taking total control of Zentradi, though Protoculture couldn't halt the advance of Zentradi obviously and seemed die out or abandon the galaxy.
Maybe the barrier system started to break down once there was no longer a fold singer to maintain it, like what the Protoculture tried to prevent by ensuring the Mayan shrine maidens could serve as fold singers to unwittingly maintain the Birdhuman they left behind on Earth. Or maybe the ruins are what generates the fault barrier, and the native Windermereans mining them for fold quartz for jewelry (before they knew the stuff was valuable for technology) damaged the barrier system.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
It is established that Cluster is surrounded by faults, Master File VF-31 elaborated that Protoculture created these faults deliberately, intended to use the Cluster as some kind of natural reserves (few of my friends even called the cluster is a provolve lab) or fortress.
The Macross Delta TV series had Roid Brehm espousing a theory that the Brisingr globular cluster was one of the last, or possibly THE last, sanctuary of the Protoculture before they went extinct. Of course, it tied into his less-scientific belief that the Protoculture had created the Windermereans with the manifest destiny of being their successors.

It's rather likely that the cluster's remoteness and relative inaccessibility would've made it an attractive option for the Protoculture survivors looking to start over, and the unusually large number of species they created there were meant to prepare those worlds for colonization the same way humanity was for Earth.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
Nodes are not the portals generated by the ruins in Cluster, they are entirely different features, something like Jump Nodes from Freespace Series or Jump Points in Star Citizen, but possibly made by Protoculture.
However, it only appeared in Master File. I hope Kawamori or Kodachi may use it in future stories, as this can also explain why DE-carrying 47th Task Force reached the cluster near the end of Delta, if the task force was dispatched from somewhere outside the Cluster.
Yeah, there's nothing like that in the series.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
I don't think NUNS would be ignorant enough to store DE or MDE in a backwater cluster, so the DE intended to be deployed on Ragna were brought to the cluster from somewhere else.
Considering there are several worlds in the cluster rich in fold quartz, it's entirely possible the NUNS built that dimensional warhead there. The need for fold quartz aside, they're mechanically less complex than thermonuclear reaction warheads since they have only one warhead material instead of two.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
Not counting all known operations before Battle of Ragna that NUNS was unable to do much, NUNS bombed the ruin undersea with a directional nuke and somehow it could toast Hayate's VF-31J in the sky...if I am a Xaos employee and/or Cluster native, I have tons of reason to get angry.
Yeah, but that was AFTER the war started... and Xaos was as guilty as the NUNS there, since they were the ones who slowed the evacuation of Barette City, thus causing the vast majority of the casualties from that warhead's detonation. The NUNS wanted to clear everyone out ASAP and blow the ruins before the Sigur Valens got there.

Hayate got toasty because he was dumb enough to be flying directly over the damned thing... that's kinda suicidal.

The only reason the NUNS wasn't able to do much against Windermere is that Xaos refused to actually use Walkure strategically. The NUNS forces were vulnerable to the Song of the Wind because, unlike Xaos, its troops didn't have fold singers present to inoculate them constantly. If Walkure had deployed with the NUNS, the war would've been over VERY quickly.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
Got discharged that is tantamount to dishonorable one, losing veterans' benefit and right to vote on "direct-ruled planets like Earth" etc. because of punching an cruel CEO (that he could kill 11 years later), Ozma was 16 years old at that time. Time passes, but that bad feeling may still in his heart.
Doesn't really seem like something that ties into his dismissiveness of the NUNS troops in the field though... that's a beef with the top brass. He calls the rank-and-file NUNS pilots from the Macross Frontier fleet cowards for being afraid after seeing a bunch of their comrades get massacred because their weapons aren't powerful enough to hurt the Vajra.

Basically, he's badmouthing them for not rushing to die pointlessly... which is pretty weird considering he's otherwise a reasonable leader.




Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:26 pm
Fold device.
Fold Wave System and FDR on YF-30 are not installed on VF-31A, since they require quartz to operate. VF-31A can't fold without the fold booster, unlike VF-27 (if VF-27 from Antares seemed fold without boosters in Frontier Episode 7 considered as canon).
Yet, the special equipments section provides nothing about the usage of fold carbon.
(The general consensus WRT Macross Frontier Ep7 is that the VF-27s were in the fold effect of a ship.)


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
Even with the (still non-canon and hard-to-use) enhancement configuration or simply using more carbon to push the performance of fold device (Master File VF-25), carbon-based ISC may not perform as well as quartz-based one.
Thus far, no official source has overturned the statement that an ISC cannot be built without fold quartz... so I'd say it's a very safe bet the VF-31A's ISC has a fold quartz core, esp. since the model kit manuals give the VF-31A a higher ISC buffer capacity than the Block 1 VF-25.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
Kaiba suggests that VF-31A may use some kind of carbon-based fold amps for supporting Walkure, but if combat-orientated VF-31A stationed at Elysium are fitted with fold amps, the manual would specify it.
Considering they're stationed on the same ship as Walkure and Delta Flight, I'd assume all fifteen or so of their VF-31As would be outfitted to potentially operate in support of Walkure for putting down the larger Var riots. Fold carbon is comparatively cheap stuff, so why not?


Phonix_1 wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:25 pm
Is there any other possibility for the fold device in manual?
"Fold technology" covers a lot of ground... but in this case, the only ones that would make sense would be fold wave manipulation. Either fold wave detection, fold wave amplification, or fold wave transmission (e.g. fold wave communications, fold wave radar, fold song amps).
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:31 am

It is a shame, really - a show named Delta should have had its titular Valkyrie a delta-winged one. And also, why did they not just design an entirely new Valkyrie if they need the mobility given by the forward-swept wings so much? I mean, I can understand modification such as a two-seat cockpit, but changing the shape of the wings is basically a big gamble with little chance of payout?

(Is there anything aerodynamically special with the body of the VF-31?)

Also, is there any example (in-verse and out-verse) for why the F-14 was chosen to be the base of the VF-0 and the VF-1? Other than that Northrop Grumman was a part of the development? I mean, yeah, the F-14 is the sexiest and most iconic jet fighter of the 80s (Top Gun and all), and the Macross is essentially an aircraft carrier IN SPACE. But why not the F-18, the F-22, the F-35 (that is not to mention the European, the Russian, and the Chinese aircraft)?

(Why we are at it, should I watch Zero first before the original, or vice versa?)

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Dark Duel » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:42 pm

Well, I'm going off my memory of what I've read about the real-life aircraft in question here, but the first reason why the F-14 was chosen and not the F/A-18 or the F-22 or -35 has to do with timing.

IIRC, the original SDF Macross, which first featured the VF-1, was first released, IIRC, in around 1982-83. At the time, neither the YF-22(developed around '85-86, rolled out '90) nor the X-36(developed in the mid-90s, rolled out in '06) existed yet. As for why we haven't seen any VFs directly based on the latter two aircraft since their development, no idea.

As for why the F-14 and not the F/A-18, well I'm sure the Top Gun movie(1986) had nothing to do with it unless Shoji Kawamori has a time machine. Rather, the F-14 first flew in 1970 and entered service in the mid-70s, whereas the F-18 was only barely entering production in 1980. So I think the slightly older Tomcat was selected because it would be more well-known, and thus more recognizable than the slightly newer Hornet.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:18 pm

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:28 pm
Well, there's no denying the VF-19A spec was hard-to-handle... that was the variant that killed the plans to adopt the VF-19 as next main fighter stone dead due to loss-of-control problems.

That said, I don't recall Oscar Brauhitsch's VF-19A "Brauhitsch Special" being mentioned as being close to its Earth/Federal forces specification. I do recall them mentioning it was an extensively modified VF-19A that incorporated advancements from the later VF-19C and VF-19P types (the latter of which was also a monkey model VF-19) and was rumored to be a repurposed prototype from an aborted VF-19 Service Life Extension Plan.
While VF-19A is not described as Earth Mainland Version in Macross The Ride directly, the main fighter of Angel Birds, VF-19A2 is called as "Earth Mainland Version without the wing root laser guns".
I think that is the reason why VF-19A are considered as the Earth Mainland Version of VF-19 on many Japanese sites, including Wikipedia

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Seto Kaiba wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:28 pm
The VF-19EF Caliburn's profile mentions that its design includes limiters on some mechanisms, but it doesn't say which ones. I would assume there are probably both hardware and software downgrades in play, but I'd say likely more software than hardware. Likely the same kind of downgrades found on the VF-19P, like that the fire control system was downgraded to increase the time needed for target acquisition, etc.
Even though VF-19P has lower-outputs engines, its fixed armaments, sensors and atmospheric performance are improved, control system is refined, these may make VF-19P become a better VF in general.
While designing VF-19P as a long-range patrol VF is only mentioned in Master File, it seems like a specialized variant more than a downgraded monkey model.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:28 pm
I suspect the omissions were in things like design refinements that would permit the kind of performance seen on the /FC1 and /FC2 engines, ways to improve ISC buffer capacity, etc., such that while the basic design concepts were communicated the fleets would only be able to build inferior copies of the Federal forces hardware and have to work out the rest on their own.
If Frontier can build YF-29 on its own even NUN omitted these refinement, then I understand why NUN is so afraid.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:28 pm
I recalled that much from the game, yeah... the Fold Evil was an incredibly scary thing, and I'm not at all surprised the Protoculture realized it was a terrible idea and sealed it away. I'm actually amazed that the builders of it were dumb enough to go ahead and build it after what happened last time... the Protodeviln and all, y'know?

Like, didn't someone in what was left of their Stellar Republic stop and ask themselves "Aren't we doing a thing that's suspiciously like what destroyed our entire civilization?"
Storywise, without the relics from "irresponsible Protoculture", Macross would be running out of enemies. :lol:

A fleet formed by millions of huge interstellar warships and containing billions of giant soldiers, they glassed the Earth in 5 minutes! Human ear-raped the enemy and cleared a way to sink the flagship. making the remaining ships to retreat. Human made it through, then go to the next level.
Even there were more than a thousand Zentradi fleets still roaming in the galaxy, they were not the baddest enemy anymore. Then, bring the extra-dimensional devils in, one of them was enough to take down the entire fleet! They could suck all the life in galaxy! Human barely stopped the worst happened, prepare for the next level.
The devils were gone, time to meet the "gods" of Protoculture that gave them fold tech...Vajra are not made by Protoculture, skip it.
Protoculture once holed up in a cluster on the galactic rim, they provolved many species and constructed a system that can pacify the Zentradi. Then, they just disappeared and seemed never use the system. Windermereans took control the system, tried to do what Macross Galaxy did few years ago and failed, again.

From an in-universe view, combining the comments I have heard all these years, Protoculture were saw as...

Very arrogant (Some audiences from Japan and Taiwan thought that the provolve experiments across the galaxy were nothing more than toying native species, rather than spreading sapience)
Obsessed with bio-organic technology (Zentradi, Evil and Zentradi organic-looking ships)
Having a habit of playing god (Uroboros System in the novel is a causality reset button. Bird Human would judge human are war-like or not by some unknown rules)
Very expansionistic (Building a galactic-scale civilization just three centuries after first space colonization attempt, organizing a military force consist of more than a thousand fleet, each have a strength of thousands to millions ships, manned by millions to billions Zentradi. Did the republic or empire prefer to increase the population by very large-scale cloning?)

I agree some of these points, and sometimes I guess the Republic and/or Empire might be run by many (mad?) scientists, or at least, they were a civilization that valued expansion and science most. They seemed value it to a level that they rarely considered the possible side effects.

And many of these backfired horribly, on galactic scale.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:28 pm
It's rather likely that the cluster's remoteness and relative inaccessibility would've made it an attractive option for the Protoculture survivors looking to start over, and the unusually large number of species they created there were meant to prepare those worlds for colonization the same way humanity was for Earth.
I am not sure the provolve experiments across the galaxy were just toying native species or not, but if Protoculture didn't die out and they co-exist with these provolved species for colonization test(?), what would they do to the provolved?
Some kind of worker caste or worst? Given what Protoculture had done to Zentradi, the result might be very bad.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:28 pm
Hayate got toasty because he was dumb enough to be flying directly over the damned thing... that's kinda suicidal.
Keith got his rlung to sense heavy quantum (?) in the nuke and thus the little but abnormal fold source (?), so he could pull out from the dogfight with Hayate earlier, while Hayate was confused by the retreat of Keith and knew NUNS detonated the nuke by almost got toasted.
Dumb maybe a little bit too harsh for someone who lacks a kind of extra-sense.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:28 pm
The only reason the NUNS wasn't able to do much against Windermere is that Xaos refused to actually use Walkure strategically. The NUNS forces were vulnerable to the Song of the Wind because, unlike Xaos, its troops didn't have fold singers present to inoculate them constantly. If Walkure had deployed with the NUNS, the war would've been over VERY quickly.
Even employed by NUNS and cooperating deeply behind the scene with NUNS, it seemed the coordination between NUNS and Xaos was not quite well or was there something barring NUNS to request deploying Walkure?
Like Walkure were not considered as combatant or even PMC members technically, so NUNS couldn't request to put civilians into Var outbreak zones?
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:28 pm
Considering they're stationed on the same ship as Walkure and Delta Flight, I'd assume all fifteen or so of their VF-31As would be outfitted to potentially operate in support of Walkure for putting down the larger Var riots. Fold carbon is comparatively cheap stuff, so why not?
I have to admit that I doubt the Fold Amps theory, though it is more plausible than carbon-based ISC for the mean time and Arad had flown a VF-31A supporting Walkure in at least one known Var control op, implying VF-31A might have some form of supporting ability beside direct actions.
Delta Squad with Fold Wave System can handle a city-wide Var outbreak at Al-Shahar and a outbreak of unknown scale (planet-wide?) at Ionides. If the outbreak is so large that support from other squad is needed, maybe the situation is deteriorated so bad that Xaos can't contain outbreak on its own.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Phonix_1 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:37 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:31 am
Also, is there any example (in-verse and out-verse) for why the F-14 was chosen to be the base of the VF-0 and the VF-1? Other than that Northrop Grumman was a part of the development? I mean, yeah, the F-14 is the sexiest and most iconic jet fighter of the 80s (Top Gun and all), and the Macross is essentially an aircraft carrier IN SPACE. But why not the F-18, the F-22, the F-35 (that is not to mention the European, the Russian, and the Chinese aircraft)?

(Why we are at it, should I watch Zero first before the original, or vice versa?)
It is because F-14 was one of the most advanced and famous fighters in late 70s to 80s.

F-18, F-22, F-35 (the JSF Concept only), European (Mirage and Draken) and Russian design (Su-27 and Su-33) inspired many VF designs. Also J35 and Su-27 are Kawamori's favorite planes.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:34 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:31 am
It is a shame, really - a show named Delta should have had its titular Valkyrie a delta-winged one.
Yeah, you'd think so... it feels like a missed opportunity that Delta Flight doesn't fly a delta-winged plane but its enemies do.


False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:31 am
And also, why did they not just design an entirely new Valkyrie if they need the mobility given by the forward-swept wings so much? I mean, I can understand modification such as a two-seat cockpit, but changing the shape of the wings is basically a big gamble with little chance of payout?
Well, Χάος's PMC division isn't exactly flush with cash even among PMCs in Macross's universe... but even the wealthiest PMCs don't have the kind of funding that would let them bankroll development of a current-gen fighter for their own forces. That's more of a government thing.

Modifying the stock VF-31 to replace the outer part of the delta wing with a forward-swept panel and tweaking its airframe control system to account for the changes in aerodynamics is a LOT cheaper. Especially given that Χάος's Ragna branch already has VF-31As on hand while they conduct operational evaluation on the VF-31 for the Brisingr Alliance NUNS and thus they weren't paying for the aircraft itself. They don't exactly have a lot of alternatives for forward-swept wings. The VF-19 is a generation older than the VF-31A and has about half the performance, and a YF-29 is so bank-breakingly expensive and resource-intensive that even a wealthy emigrant fleet could only afford ONE.


False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:31 am
(Is there anything aerodynamically special with the body of the VF-31?)
Not really, no... it's almost identical to the YF-24 and YF-30 in that regard.


False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:31 am
Also, is there any example (in-verse and out-verse) for why the F-14 was chosen to be the base of the VF-0 and the VF-1? Other than that Northrop Grumman was a part of the development? I mean, yeah, the F-14 is the sexiest and most iconic jet fighter of the 80s (Top Gun and all), and the Macross is essentially an aircraft carrier IN SPACE. But why not the F-18, the F-22, the F-35 (that is not to mention the European, the Russian, and the Chinese aircraft)?
The production reason is that they had originally started with a design that was a transforming powered suit that looked a fair bit Gundam-y because the original sponsor wanted a Gundam spoof instead of the space opera that Shoji Kawamori and Studio Nue wanted to do. Once the original sponsor went out of business and the project found a new sponsor (Big West), they were able to pursue their original plans for a serious drama and the designs evolved in a more realistic direction. The F-14 ended up chosen as the starting point because a variable geometry wing and the widely-spaced engines were conducive to being redesigned for transformation, and for a couple practical aerodynamic reasons.

The in-universe reason is more straightforward. The UN Government was already using the Grumman F-14 in the UN Navy after inheriting them from the US Navy, and made extensive use of them for their long sortie ranges and large ordnance capacity. Because of that, the F-14 received some modernizations with overtechnology in the UN Wars, which combined with its scaling-friendly VG wing made it an ideal starting point for a variable fighter. The F-14 served as the first testbed for VF technologies after the F-14 experimental systems group was absorbed into the Variable Fighter program. The VF-0 is basically a converted F-14.


False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:31 am
(Why we are at it, should I watch Zero first before the original, or vice versa?)
Recommended practice is to watch Macross in production order... at least the first time around. The OVAs tend to build on stuff from the TV shows, and Macross Zero's plot depends on details about the Protoculture that were revealed in Macross 7.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:54 pm

Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:18 pm
While VF-19A is not described as Earth Mainland Version in Macross The Ride directly, the main fighter of Angel Birds, VF-19A2 is called as "Earth Mainland Version without the wing root laser guns".
The VF-19A2's description says the differences between it and the A-type are unknown.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:18 pm
Even though VF-19P has lower-outputs engines, its fixed armaments, sensors and atmospheric performance are improved, control system is refined, these may make VF-19P become a better VF in general.
Given that control difficulties were the achilles heel of the VF-19 series in general, it may make it a more manageable aircraft but I'm not sure that would make it a better VF in general.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:18 pm
If Frontier can build YF-29 on its own even NUN omitted these refinement, then I understand why NUN is so afraid.
Macross Frontier could only afford to build one YF-29, and even then they had to cut corners... now consider that the YF-24 Evolution is allegedly as high-spec as the YF-29, but suitable for mass production. You can see why the New UN Government left some stuff out...


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:18 pm
Storywise, without the relics from "irresponsible Protoculture", Macross would be running out of enemies. :lol:
... yeah, that's about the letter of it.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:18 pm
I am not sure the provolve experiments across the galaxy were just toying native species or not, but if Protoculture didn't die out and they co-exist with these provolved species for colonization test(?), what would they do to the provolved?
Some kind of worker caste or worst? Given what Protoculture had done to Zentradi, the result might be very bad.
Well, we know the Protoculture later went back to Earth and maybe other worlds they'd modified the local life on to leave protections against other species repeating their mistakes. I have a theory the Windermereans were the Protoculture's attempt to make a species that would have the necessary empathy (via fold wave emotion sharing) to avoid repeating their mistakes.

Didn't work, but hey... at least they tried.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:18 pm
Keith got his rlung to sense heavy quantum (?) in the nuke and thus the little but abnormal fold source (?), so he could pull out from the dogfight with Hayate earlier, while Hayate was confused by the retreat of Keith and knew NUNS detonated the nuke by almost got toasted.
Dumb maybe a little bit too harsh for someone who lacks a kind of extra-sense.
He knew where the bomb was, you'd think that'd be a no-go zone... though I doubt anyone would've predicted the Windermereans would be sensitive enough to fold waves to pick up the resonance fold effect of the thermonuclear reaction warhead's trigger mechanism. (If they could sense that, one can only imagine how unpleasant feeling the dimensional warhead go off would've been...)


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:18 pm
Even employed by NUNS and cooperating deeply behind the scene with NUNS, it seemed the coordination between NUNS and Xaos was not quite well or was there something barring NUNS to request deploying Walkure?
A lot of it seems to be some kind of shady agenda that Lady M had... she went out of her way to obstruct the NUNS from evacuating Barette City and did a lot of other shady stuff like placing Mikumo in Walkure.

Problem is, she never appeared and never even got described in consistent terms, so we don't know what her deal is.


Phonix_1 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:18 pm
Like Walkure were not considered as combatant or even PMC members technically, so NUNS couldn't request to put civilians into Var outbreak zones?
That's never stopped them before... e.g. Lynn Minmay, Fire Bomber, the Milky Dolls, Sheryl Nome, Ranka Lee, etc.
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by yazi88 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:34 pm

I'm guessing that the VF-25s used by the NUNS Special Forces Havamel in Macross 30 were the true performance ones as they were made by the Federal arm of the NUNS forces rather than the watered down ones that were imported by Immigration Fleets/Local planet forces/PMCs.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by False Prophet » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:21 am

Is it me or does the Star Mirage is undergunned? And how did they managed to cram in so many weapons to the YF-21 compared to the Thunderbolt?

And say, beside Shoji Kawamori, who has the final say on the world of Macross? I mean, if you think about it, he seems to keep a tight control about his universe.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:34 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:34 pm
I'm guessing that the VF-25s used by the NUNS Special Forces Havamel in Macross 30 were the true performance ones as they were made by the Federal arm of the NUNS forces rather than the watered down ones that were imported by Immigration Fleets/Local planet forces/PMCs.
Well, the VF-25 was developed by an emigrant fleet government for that fleet's local New UN Forces, so that would be an emigrant fleet force with a full spec version instead of a monkey model.

Given that Uroboros has strong ties to SMS and presumably through SMS to the Macross Frontier emigrant fleet that developed the VF-25, it's safe to assume that the VF-25s deployed by Havamal were built to the full spec instead of as monkey models. Uroboros has a lot of fold quartz, so it would be cheaper to do it there than it would be in many other locales.



False Prophet wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:21 am
Is it me or does the Star Mirage is undergunned?
'lil bit, but not much. It's got internal micro-missile launchers, a coaxial laser cannon, a gunpod, and pylons on the wings for ordnance. That's a pretty standard setup.

It is technically a light variable fighter, however, since it was intended mainly for use "behind the lines" as an atmospheric counterpart to the space-oriented VF-4 Lightning III.


False Prophet wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:21 am
And how did they managed to cram in so many weapons to the YF-21 compared to the Thunderbolt?
The YF-21's a fair bit bigger than the VF-11... somewhere in the neighborhood of 15-20% larger, when all is said and done. Its transformation is also entails less rearranging of the fighter's center mass, leaving more room free for weapons storage and facilitating the unusual transformation system where the limbs are not essential parts of the airframe structure and can be jettisoned without significantly affecting performance in fighter mode. This also provided a generous bomb bay which is also used to store the gunpods. (The bay doors form the "skirt" on either side of the hips in battroid mode.)


False Prophet wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:21 am
And say, beside Shoji Kawamori, who has the final say on the world of Macross? I mean, if you think about it, he seems to keep a tight control about his universe.
Big West, the company that owns the franchise, technically has the final word... and they have sometimes been at odds with Kawamori's rather wishy-washy broad strokes attitude towards continuity.

That said, they mostly let Kawamori work on stuff like story concepts and mechanical designs, and leave all the fiddly details to the writers and other specialists like the mechanical setting coordinator Masahiro Chiba. (Chiba is basically The Last Word on matters mechanical, given that he writes all the tech specs and works out how it all fits together.)
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by hitokirigarou » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:42 pm

Is there a reason why the VF-11 seem like a downgrade weapon-wise compared to the older VF-4 and VF-5000?

Does the C model of the VF-11, from Macross 7, have internal missile launchers?

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:50 pm

hitokirigarou wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:42 pm
Is there a reason why the VF-11 seem like a downgrade weapon-wise compared to some of the previous VFs, particularly the VF-4 and VF-5000?
That's a very common perception among fans, and probably has an awful lot to do with the way the VF-11 was the designated cannon fodder mecha for Macross 7 and never got a hero pilot or a chance to shine outside of an all-too-brief combat scene in the first episode of the Macross Plus OVA until Macross 30: Voices Across the Galaxy when one of the main trio (Mina Forte) got a VF-11C as her personal Valkyrie.

It probably also didn't help that, due to animation budget concerns in Macross 7, it was never shown to use its underwing pylons until it appeared in Macross the Ride fully seventeen years after its debut in 1994.

Weapons-wise, the VF-11 could be argued to be a step down from the gunboat-like VF-4, which sacrificed a good portion of its agility in atmospheric service to maximize its carrying capacity for fuel and ordnance given that it's basically a VF-1 with Strike Pack capabilities built directly into the airframe. Compared to the VF-5000, which is almost exclusively focused on short-range dogfighting combat, the VF-11 offers more balanced performance.

The 3rd Generation VF-11 Thunderbolt represents a return to the idea of the all-regime variable fighter that was the rule back in the 1st Generation, so its design focuses on providing balanced performance in atmospheric and space service. The airframe's still relatively small, but with four underwing pylons and two internal bays, it has almost as much payload capacity and flexibility as the VF-4 but without sacrificing maneuverability the way the VF-4 does. In atmosphere, it outmaneuvers the VF-4 and outguns the VF-5000. In space, with FAST packs on it's able to outgun AND outmaneuver the VF-4. It also has a big advantage in that its design is more close combat-friendly with an antiprojectile shield and anti-armor bayonet. One of the big problems with 1st and 2nd Gen VF designs is that they didn't hold up too well if it came down to close combat. The gunpod having a detachable magazine helps too, since it enables the VF-11 to carry more gunpod ammunition than a VF-4 or VF-5000.





hitokirigarou wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:42 pm
Does the C model of the VF-11, from Macross 7, have internal missile launchers?
Sort of. The VF-11C Thunderbolt has an internal ordnance bay on the outside of each [lower leg/engine nacelle], presumably able to take the same sort of modular ordnance pallets the VF-19 and VF-22 use. The only time that feature was shown in use was for Operation Stargazer in Macross 7, when they were outfitted with reaction warhead-equipped heavy missiles for an attempted decapitation strike against the Protodeviln.
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yazi88
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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by yazi88 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:07 pm

IIRC, the bayonet showed up in Macross Plus only, I don't think any VF-11 used it in Macross 7, I could be wrong.

VF-11 also had the optional Armored pack similar to the VF-1 and VF-0 which heavily increased its firepower at the cost of mobility. I also noticed that we have yet to see the heavy projectile gunpod outside the armored pack of the VF-11, later VFs opted for the beam gunpod beam adapter/heavy quantum grenade for more firepower on gunpods.

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Re: The Macross Valkyrie Thread

Post by hitokirigarou » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:39 am

Thanks for the response, Seto Kaiba.

What mainly bothers me about the VF-5000 and VF-11 is that, aside from their gunpods, they have no other forward-firing ballistic or energy weapon in fighter mode.

What are the advantages of the VF-25 over the VF-19 and VF-22?

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