Unicorn Episode 4 Pegasus

[tHeWasTeDYouTh]

Spacenoids killed half of humanity and destroy large chunks of the Earth

the Federation and Titans should have done more to stop spacenoids from uprising again

Pegasus class probably got shot down and written off, happens in real wars all the time

ships are destroy and once you salvage the weapons and other systems you leave the hulk

[Imperial]

Well, if you don't have the grunts you don't have much of a private army, which is essentially what the Titans end up turning into. But like I said, the attempt to join Axis to me was only really viewed from the top down, which is why I had such a problem with the Titans just joining up with Neo Zeon, because the only ones really established to want this partnership with Axis were Jamitov and Scirocco. Of course I always have to wonder if Jamitov would have wanted the Partnership had the Dakar Speech not essentially crushed all Earth Federation Support for the Titans.

You seem fixated on this idea that the Titans SHOULD be vehemently anti-Spacenoid and only that simply because Moncha was.

But the fact of the matter is that the Titans try to jump in bed with Axis with no protest. Zeta establishes that the ends-justify-the-means mentality is very prevalent in the Titans. In this case, the end of dominating the Earth Sphere justifies the means of getting cozy with Axis.

It's not the first time a military outfit has strayed from its stated, high-minded goals. Protecting Earth from Zeon was just a pretext for building a private army.

There's also the simple fact that holding onto a political ideology when you've been disowned by your government and treated like a criminal is pretty hard. Facing court martial at the hands of a civvie government that has already written you off for your sworn enemies probably goes a long way in making you bitter enough to do whatever it takes to get back at them.

[Zeonista]

Just by the way, I recall that the machines deployed from this ship included both Titans and Neo Zeon types (Marasai, Galluss), so it may be that it ended up in Neo Zeon hands when they absorbed the remnants of the Titans...

That's actually a nice theory. I've sort of been vaguely annoyed at the fact that the Zeeks not only managed to bring down a Pegasus at some point, but then at some later date proceeded to use it as a base! Talk about adding insult to injury. The idea that the ship went from the EFF, to the Titans, to Neo Zeon before crashing and being used as a hideaway is much more palatable, not to mention reasonable (why would Zeon remnants be using a Federation crash site as a base in the first place?).

I blew the dust off this one in order to tell a story, and because Kirby-san sounded like he wanted some assurance that the EFF could at times suck completely, with consequences down the line.

First, let me state the scenario is entirely valid. The Pegasus-class ships were frequently used as solo cruisers, with only intermittent escort or assisting force. Apparently being able to carry one's own MS force from place to place gave the EFF planners confidence in their survivability! Which sort of worked, except on the days it did not. The White Base had a history of constantly being over their head with little to no support, and being saved only because of Amuro & the RX-78-2 Gundam. The Albion was nearly taken down by Bitter Force in Africa, and survived an encounter with Cima Garahau because she was doing recon, not attacking, and decided to retreat rather than go for bonus points after scoring the two Short Sally escorts.

Keeping the anime history in mind, let me tell you a story. Sometime in 0084-88, Grey Phantom was down on Earth, assigned to the hunt for a Zeon remnant force. Somewhere over a lonely mountain range, she succeeded, but the tables were abruptly turned as the remnants launched a fierce MS attack. Alas! Grey Phantom had no angsty Newtype in a Gundam to save her; she didn't even have a carrot-hating normal Gundam pilot to save her. The ship took critical disabling hits, and crash-landed in the mountains. Her helsman did a superb job, and Grey Phantom landed without wrecking herself. The remnants' ground forces threatened to assist the MS in a renewed assault, so the captain ordered the crew to save the wounded, and they abandoned ship. The survivors made their way back to Federation-controlled territory, and reported the unsatisfactory outcome. A repair/retrieval force set out, but quickly retreated when it became clear the Zeon remnants were in possession of the ship and ready to fight for her. The Zeon force then took control of their prize, and what a prize she was! We're talking 1-2 armored MS hangers with launch and repair facilities, crew quarters of higher level than a tent, a working Minovsky reactor to provide power, and at least auxiliary sensor and comm systems. The EFF knew where Grey Phantom was located, but decided to let sleeping Zeeks lie, rather than going in to drop the hammer on the impudent zealots. In 0088 the remnant force made contact with the Neo-Zeon, and were rewarded for their victory with some Marasai MS liberated from Titan/EFF service. Further efforts were thwarted by the Neo-Zeon returning to space, so the remnants settled back into standby ode again, waiting for another call to action.

Let me tell you another story. It was 0087, and Grey Phantom was now a Titans ship, actively prowling for Zeon remnants and AEUG Zeek-lovers. While proceeding on its way, it was overtaken by an AEUG or Kalaba mobile force hastening to join Aldomura in attacking New Guinea. The rebels started the engagement with superior positioning, and used it to disable Grey Phantom before she could finish launching her MS complement. Once again, the helmsman was able to land the ship without wrecking her. The AEUG/Kalaba force continued on its way, exchanging a few high-fives about an easy win over the Tee-tons. Afterwards, no one on the AEUG side of things cared about a wrecked Titans ship. The Titan crew sent out an SOS and settled in to wait for retrieval. They were still waiting when the Gryps War ended, and left them as isolated as any Zeon remnant force ever was. Later on, when the Neo-Zeon came to Dakar, they heard about the amnesty and decided to join up. A Neo-Zeon liaison group arrived, but then Haman-sama decided to crater Ireland and leave. The shrunken EFF on Earth decided not to start a fight they might not be able to finish, and hoped that the mixed factions would either leave or fight each other. This hope was doomed to fail, since the Neo-Zeons and Titans could both unite in the spirit of screwing over the Federation in the future.

And here's a variation on the second story, The Titans crew were successfully retrieved, to be sent on to other duty. The ship wasn't going anywhere quickly, but a retrieval crew could be sent later after those pesky Zeek-lovers got cleaned up, right? However, the Titans had overlooked the ability of the local Zeon remnant force to affect the situation. The remnants, who had observed the situation from afar, now moved in and took over Grey Phantom. Oh yeah, a new nifty base and it came with several Marasai MS as well. (And they even have mono-eyes and Zeon-style rounded body styling. Gee, thanks Titans! ) No one ever discovered the change in ownership after 0088, because the remnants could use the sensors and comm gear to known when to lay low, and when to make solitary craft "disappear".

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

I blew the dust off this one in order to tell a story, and because Kirby-san sounded like he wanted some assurance that the EFF could at times suck completely, with consequences down the line.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but the point of my post was the exact opposite of that. I have an extreme dislike of writing things off as "well, they must have been incompetent, because they're Feddies, and everyone knows they suck".

The problem with your scenarios is that it basically boils down to one of three different versions of events. 1) the ship was shot down and immediately taken over by the forces that defeated it, then somehow later got reinforced with newer model MS, 2) the ship was shot down and abandoned, then later taken over by forces with those new MS already in their possession, or 3) the ship was being operated by forces fielding those new MS already, and was shot down but managed to escape detection where they crashed, so they kept using their now-flightless ship as a base.

The problems with 1) and 2) is that it requires someone to know that a valuable warship was lost without sending anyone to investigate or salvage it. Even if it wasn't deemed worth the expense to repair it, then it should have been destroyed in order to prevent classified information (including the details of the ship design itself) from lying around unsecured.

In the scenario that it was taken down and then immediately occupied by the victors, that would mean that the Zeon remnants that the EFF has been hunting have gathered themselves nicely at an easily-identifiable location; an excellent time to blow them the hell up. You wouldn't even have to engage them directly; if you know where the wreck is, just target it with a stand-off weapon like a mega particle cannon (or hell, just drop a whole bunch of bombs on it) and your problem goes away permanently. If it was immediately taken over, that also raises the question of where they got those new model machines we see them launching with. I doubt the Titans or Neo Zeon were in the habit of just handing out shiny new mecha to random remnants who had spent the last decade sitting around doing not-much. It doesn't make any sense for them to expend resources with no expectation of return on investment.

In the case that the ship was shot down and abandoned for a while, in addition to the "why wasn't it salvaged or destroyed" question, there's also the question of how the Zeon remnants that eventually occupied it found it in the first place. I suppose it's possible that they just stumbled upon it and decided to use it, but that seems unlikely for several reasons. Depending on how long the wreck was abandoned, it's likely that the facilities, left damaged and exposed, would have decayed to uselessness -- it would've been little better than any other facility they could have occupied or constructed, and indeed rather worse in that it's much more difficult to hide a crashed warship than something purpose-built to be difficult to spot.

The third scenario -- that it was being operated by Neo Zeon at the time of its crash -- is the only one that answers all those problems. If it was damaged in combat but managed to limp away from the battle and crashed later, without being observed, then that explains why there wasn't any follow up; either there were no Federation survivors of the battle that crippled it (and thus the ship simply disappeared from the records) or else it was observed leaving the battle with serious damage and it was labelled a probable kill, which was later confirmed when neither it nor any of its compliment of MS or crew ever re-entered the battlefield. It also explains how a) they were in possession of those various mecha at the time of Unicorn and b) they were familiar enough with the care and feeding of a Pegasus-class to keep it repaired and maintained for however many years they were living there (about 8, if we're going from the First Neo Zeon War in 0088 to Unicorn in 0096) -- they'd been trained on it, since they were the ones operating the ship when it went down.

So yes. I definitely prefer the idea that it was a Neo Zeon ship when it crashed, as it's both the simplest explanation for everything (how they gained possession of the wreck in the first place, how they got the mecha they have, how they kept the crippled ship operating for years) and it doesn't require us to assume gross incompetence on anybody's part.

[Zeonista]

I blew the dust off this one in order to tell a story, and because Kirby-san sounded like he wanted some assurance that the EFF could at times suck completely, with consequences down the line.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but the point of my post was the exact opposite of that. I have an extreme dislike of writing things off as "well, they must have been incompetent, because they're Feddies, and everyone knows they suck".

Than you for replying! Honestly I did not intend to be sarcastic, although I did write that passage with tongue in cheek. And yes, the EFF & EFSF do suck in terms of geo-political strategy, although they suffer under constraints not of their making. The Grey Phantom affair seems to be one of those cases where the defects in the strategy are made evident, but are not addressed. (Possibly to protect the careers of the people who ordered Grey Phantom into danger without backup.)

The problem with your scenarios is that it basically boils down to one of three different versions of events.
1) the ship was shot down and immediately taken over by the forces that defeated it, then somehow later got reinforced with newer model MS,
3) the ship was being operated by forces fielding those new MS already, and was shot down but managed to escape detection where they crashed, so they kept using their now-flightless ship as a base.

Succinctly noted in these two cases, and thereby picked by me as the most likely tale to be told. (#2 is my variation on the second tale, which has more opportunism and less aggression involved.) It seemed inconceivable that a storm or mechanical failure deposited the ship at its remote location. The EFF might be largely commanded by fools, but its field personnel have always been proficient at their positions, and those posted to the Pegasus-class ships have always been depicted that way. So scratch incompetence, this was the result of enemy action!

The problems with 1) and 2) is that it requires someone to know that a valuable warship was lost without sending anyone to investigate or salvage it. Even if it wasn't deemed worth the expense to repair it, then it should have been destroyed in order to prevent classified information (including the details of the ship design itself) from lying around unsecured.

This is what should have happened, and I do not deny it. But, that is not what happened; we have seen the proof to the contrary with our own eyes in the anime, right? So your sensible solution was not followed by circumstance or design. I tried to posit some of those factors into the tales.

In the scenario that it was taken down and then immediately occupied by the victors, that would mean that the Zeon remnants that the EFF has been hunting have gathered themselves nicely at an easily-identifiable location

Here is the first problem. The remnant forces which chose not to go home did a good job of concealing themselves, either among sympathetic (or pragmatic) locals, or in places of their own choosing. And in the depopulated Earth of the post-OYW period, there were ample places to hide! That's the second problem, about 2 billion people (compared to today's 6+), mainly urban, widely spaced about the planetary land masses and islands. Since the EFF bases tended to be adjacent to those urban areas, there were regions that could be politely termed "sparsely populated", with little overwatch or support. Grey Phantom's isolated location made it difficult to salvage, and would demand a battle-ready force to cover the salvage crew. Time was on the Remnants' side here, and it seemed the retrieval force (if any) had decided not to push their luck.

Naturally a remnant force large enough to plausibly threaten a Pegasus-class ship could not completely vanish, but knowledge of its home base would be difficult to obtain, and dangerous to confirm! And as mentioned in Gundam UC, the Federation bigwigs often found Zeon remnants to be conveniently ignored when possible, and confronted only when they chose to take the offensive. Call it politics, call it post-OYW reluctance to dig fanatics out of their holes, call it red tape, whatever, the regular Federation forces were on a short leash. Objectively that was an error, even if it contributed to many exciting UC stories.

If it was immediately taken over, that also raises the question of where they got those new model machines we see them launching with.

The Neo-Zeon grant of amnesty to Titans who joined them is an inconvenient detail for those of us who demand honest ideological dedication to a cause. But Haman-sama made the offer, and it was accepted, and the damnable alliance of convenience was made. And it would make sense for the Neo-Zeon to offer new MS, or at least some UMP spare parts, to the Remnants who had stayed loyal to the Cause at such personal cost. Dedicated & skilled warriors are hard to come by, take the ones that are available!

In the case that the ship was shot down and abandoned for a while, in addition to the "why wasn't it salvaged or destroyed" question, there's also the question of how the Zeon remnants that eventually occupied it found it in the first place.

Well, note that in the first tale the remnants forced the Grey Lady down themselves, in territory they knew well near their base. So it was easy for them to reach the ship. In the second case, it was the damnable alliance, with the shipwrecked Titans making contact with the Neo-Zeon. In the variant case, the Zeon remnants were witness to a confrontation in their immediate area, and moved quickly to occupy Grey Phantom as soon as it was verified the ship was abandoned.

The third scenario -- that it was being operated by Neo Zeon at the time of its crash -- is the only one that answers all those problems. If it was damaged in combat but managed to limp away from the battle and crashed later, without being observed, then that explains why there wasn't any follow up; either there were no Federation survivors of the battle that crippled it (and thus the ship simply disappeared from the records) or else it was observed leaving the battle with serious damage and it was labelled a probable kill, which was later confirmed when neither it nor any of its compliment of MS or crew ever re-entered the battlefield. It also explains how a) they were in possession of those various mecha at the time of Unicorn and b) they were familiar enough with the care and feeding of a Pegasus-class to keep it repaired and maintained for however many years they were living there (about 8, if we're going from the First Neo Zeon War in 0088 to Unicorn in 0096) -- they'd been trained on it, since they were the ones operating the ship when it went down.

This is one tale I did not tell, and there is some merit in a tale of shipwrecked Neo-Zeon holding in place, with no real ability to remove themselves, but still dangerous at need. Although it creates the need for an explanation as to how the Neo-Zeon obtained an EFSF cruiser in such fine shape!

[JEFFPIATT]

probably the same way one got out in victory it was sitting in some surplus yard and the management gave it to its current owners. judgeing by the fact that it's still in EFSF colors it may of just crashed under EFSF control and the EFF ground forces did not want to put up the cash to go out and salvage it for there sister arm. it may be in good shape but it's still has one leg hanger hanging off the side it could be that the hull was stripped of most systems and just left there after the grypts conflict basically crippled the EFF.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Here is the first problem. The remnant forces which chose not to go home did a good job of concealing themselves, either among sympathetic (or pragmatic) locals, or in places of their own choosing. And in the depopulated Earth of the post-OYW period, there were ample places to hide!
[...]
Naturally a remnant force large enough to plausibly threaten a Pegasus-class ship could not completely vanish, but knowledge of its home base would be difficult to obtain, and dangerous to confirm!

But the group we see operating out of the Pegasus didn't hide themselves among locals or in a hidden location of their own choosing; they were operating out of the crashed Pegasus -- which is a highly conspicuous place for a group of Zeon remnants to be staying if said Pegasus was known to be lost in battle against a group of Zeon remnants. If any of the Pegasus's crew survived, or they were able to send out a signal before going down, then their position would have been known with a fair degree of accuracy. If not, then the EFF has a warship that mysteriously disappeared at some point during their patrol -- they would have presumably known at least the rough area of where the patrol was to take place, and the last reported position of the ship, giving them a fairly good idea of where to look for it.

The loss of a ship would make a rescue mission inevitable; you simply do not write off the loss of a warship without any reaction whatsoever. If the ship simply went missing, then the response would have been a fact-finding mission, to determine where the ship is, why it went down, and whether there are any survivors that need evac. If they were known to have been lost to enemy action, then the goal would have been to save the survivors, avenge the fallen, and secure the crash site (not necessarily in that order). You seem willing to simply say that no response was mounted because the EFF is run by idiots, which I don't find to be an at-all reasonable answer -- especially when we have an alternate hypothesis that doesn't require criminal incompetence on anyone's part.

And it would make sense for the Neo-Zeon to offer new MS, or at least some UMP spare parts, to the Remnants who had stayed loyal to the Cause at such personal cost. Dedicated & skilled warriors are hard to come by, take the ones that are available!

It would make sense for to draft skilled and experienced volunteers into your main fighting force and equip them with the latest MS, certainly. It doesn't make sense to dilute your own strength by handing out valuable war materiel to irregular auxiliaries with uncertain loyalty and no logistics support. We never see any instance of a mainline force (the Titans, Axis, Neo Zeon, Char's Neo Zeon, or the Sleeves) giving shiny-new MS to unaffiliated remnant groups that I'm aware of (with the possible exception of the Shamblo -- but I don't believe that its origins are explained, at least not within Unicorn itself). Hell, in ZZ, we see a group of Zeon remnants still driving OYW-vintage MS (albeit presumably-upgraded ones, given that they have panoramic cockpits, IIRC). We simply have no reason to believe that what you're suggesting ever actually happened.

This is one tale I did not tell, and there is some merit in a tale of shipwrecked Neo-Zeon holding in place, with no real ability to remove themselves, but still dangerous at need. Although it creates the need for an explanation as to how the Neo-Zeon obtained an EFSF cruiser in such fine shape!

That was the entire point of the post that you originally quoted! Mark was suggesting that, from service in the EFF proper, the Pegasus in question was transferred to the control of the Titans, and then moved on to service with Neo Zeon when they absorbed the Titan's survivors after their defeat in the Gryps Conflict. I'll quote the relevant section again:

Just by the way, I recall that the machines deployed from this ship included both Titans and Neo Zeon types (Marasai, Galluss), so it may be that it ended up in Neo Zeon hands when they absorbed the remnants of the Titans...

[Zeonista]

I wish I knew where those mountains were located, it would be better for me as a tale-teller. The Marasias and Gallus-K have tropic-style Zeon camo paint, but that is not much help.

But the group we see operating out of the Pegasus didn't hide themselves among locals or in a hidden location of their own choosing; they were operating out of the crashed Pegasus -- which is a highly conspicuous place for a group of Zeon remnants to be staying if said Pegasus was known to be lost in battle against a group of Zeon remnants.

You misunderstood my meaning, which was to illustrate that Grey Phantom had been lost by blundering into a Remnant position of unknown strength, and then becoming hunted instead of the hunter. The return of the surviving crew would have confirmed the last known location of the ship, but not necessarily the composition of the remnant force, only that it was strong enough and handled well enough to attack a cruiser and win. This is where the EFF commanders would have to make some calculated decisions regarding viable responses, and then see if they could get approval from Jaburo, who might then have to get approval from Dakar. There's that short leash again....

The loss of a ship would make a rescue mission inevitable; you simply do not write off the loss of a warship without any reaction whatsoever. If the ship simply went missing, then the response would have been a fact-finding mission

It does seem straightforward, doesn't it? Again, I agree that would be the right thing to do.... If the EFF base commander(s) knew for certain they could scrape together the strength for an offensive against a force whose exact numbers and composition could be calculated, and could guarantee they wouldn't head into another set-up, since it would be obvious even to Jack Keith that the Zeeks would expect a retrieval party, and that they could take this plan to the brass and politicos and sell it as a success. 'Cause we all know that politicians, paper-pushers, and desk-riding generals just love open-ended strikes against an enemy force that has already caused one loss of face, and might do it again.

Edit: Boy don't I sound like the complete cynic here! But that would be the ultimate reason why the remnants would be left alone. Most of Earth was no longer a top priority for defense, and the EFF top brass and their political masters wanted to play it safe, rather than play to win.

Edit 2: Since Kirby-san is advocating a revision of the "damnable alliance" idea, let's give it a try.
In 0088 Grey Phantom was a Titans-flagged ship in operations around Earth itself, since the Pegasus-class's feature of atmospheric entry made it useful in hunting the Zeek-lovers of AEUG and their Kalaba dupes on Earth. Using a cruiser to hunt rebels hopping about in commandeered aircraft seemed like overkill....which was the point, really. The ship was in port when the Titans collapsed, and was left in an awkward situation. Since the entire crew were Titans, the ship could not be immobilized by desertion or mutiny, and the Kalaba and anti-Titans EFF forces were reluctant to force the issue. Then the Neo-Zeon landed at Dakar, making sure the grant of amnesty was also made known on Earth. The Grey Lady's crew decided to accept, and the cruiser headed to Dakar to make friends. (Any port in a storm, yadda yadda.)

After AEUG crashed the party, Grey Phantom became an independent operator again, hunting the AEUG rebels and their back-stabbing former allies alongside their New Zee-er Neo Zeon allies. A Neo-Zeon liaison officer from Axis had joined as well, bringing his Gallus-K and support crew along to augment the ship's MS strength. A local joint force of EFF & Kalaba assets ran down Grey Phantom and forced battle near some mountains. The joint force disabled the Grey Lady, who force-landed in more or less one piece. The joint force was mauled by the vengeful ex-Titans and limped away to report a "victory". Once again the EFF high command decided to let sleeping Zeeks lie, and the stranded cruiser's crew was left to its own devices. Warship parts couldn't be obtained on the black market, so Grey Phantom remained grounded. However, at least one hanger was working just fine, and there was power, so they were still in business!

[MrBitey]

The loss of a ship would make a rescue mission inevitable; you simply do not write off the loss of a warship without any reaction whatsoever. If the ship simply went missing, then the response would have been a fact-finding mission, to determine where the ship is, why it went down, and whether there are any survivors that need evac. If they were known to have been lost to enemy action, then the goal would have been to save the survivors, avenge the fallen, and secure the crash site (not necessarily in that order). You seem willing to simply say that no response was mounted because the EFF is run by idiots, which I don't find to be an at-all reasonable answer -- especially when we have an alternate hypothesis that doesn't require criminal incompetence on anyone's part.

Keep in mind the conversation Riddhe has with Mineva in Unicorn Volume II. The Federation doesn't go on Zeon manhunts because the constant threat of Zeon recidivists keeps the population in check, and the Federation in power. The fear of Zeon remnants hiding an the husk of a ship class that's the Federation's pride and joy is about as perfect a scenario as it gets.

Hell, judging by the tropics colours and the paddies around the mountain, I'd guess that's in Southeast Asia (which would make sense, since the suits deployed from the Grey Phantom were part of the assault on Torrington, and SEA is well in range of Australia). Remember, that was a massive front during the OYW. Even better.