trigger mechanisms for MS guns

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Seraphic
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trigger mechanisms for MS guns

I was curious to discuss different kinds of triggers for handheld mobile suit guns. I know there are at least several types:

-traditional trigger (like on human weapons)

-wire/handplug

-short-range wireless

Specifically, I am wondering which relays the fire command fastest, which is most reliable, and which has security countermeasures against the weapon being captured by the enemy. (We know the Wing's buster rifle could be fired by an Aries on the fly, so it has no such security.) I also want to remind everyone that electrical currents do not travel at the speed of light.

Which do you think would work best for something like a semi-automatic handgun? And other weapon types? Are there other kinds of trigger mechanisms you've observed?
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Arsarcana
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

I would imagine a plug system that only allows a weapon to fire when it recieves a proper signal would be the most secure of those options since you would first need to build the other half of the plug and then figure out how to bypass the coded signal issue. A physical trigger with no other requirements would be the least secure since anything capable of depressing the trigger (like the Aries) could make the weapon fire. On the other hand I imagine a physical trigger would be the most reliable and easiest to repair in the field.

As another thought, hand plugs or a wireless signal would be necessary to synch up the weapon's own sensor to the MS (if it has one) for aiming purposes while a purely physical trigger with no other link to the MS wouldn't have that advantage. Since the Buster Rifle definitely has a sensor, I wonder if it's supposed to have a wireless signal that Wing uses to help aim the thing?
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mcred23
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

It's also worth noting that a hand plug is not just a trigger method, that is also a way that mobile suits provide power to weapons, specifically beam weapons. In the case of UC MS, where they always have to provide some of their own power to make those weapons fire (If they aren't providing all the power themselves, which starts happening by the Gryps War), they're always going to have hand plugs for that important feature.

Whether or not that is how they fire the weapon, or they actually pull the trigger, is another matter. Wireless I suspect isn't a normal feature in UC, partly due to Minovsky particles making such a thing unreliable, but also because we've never seen it done (You'd think someone would try and fire a weapon without their hand holding it at some point :P). However, I don't see why a weapon can't be fired by either a normal trigger or just an electrical command via the plug, one being the primary method and the other a backup. I think there have been examples of both, where we see an MS pull the trigger and cases where they don't but the weapon fires anyway. My initial thought is that firing via the plug might be quicker (By whatever fractions of a second), but the trigger method may be more reliable or something like that, but I'm not sure that one would be inherently a better or superior method than the other, which is why you may find examples of both in the same work...
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DougCos
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

I doubt they physically pull a trigger since it means more moving parts that can break. Also, to pull a trigger the mobile suit would send an electronic signal from the cockpit down the arm to the hand telling the motors to move the finger to pull the trigger. It would seem obvious to just have the signal pass into the weapon itself and cut out the middle man. The signal would not be traveling any significant distance further and the fire command would probably arrive sooner since no motor needs to move.
Xenosynth
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

One example, though unlikely, of the physical trigger being a bit bad was in 0080, when one of the GM's the Hygogg is fighting gets part of its arm blown open while it is pulling a trigger down on the machinegun it uses, it won't stop firing after the arm is damaged. Other than that though, it never really appeared that there were TOO many triggers in UC. The Dom's bazooka doesn't seem to have any on it, and nor do the bazookas shown in 0080. Some of my models do show what look like triggers, such as on the Nu Gundam's beam rifle, and some lack them like the Full Armor Gundam's Double Beam Rifle. My HGUC Kampfer's shotgun has a hole for a trigger finger but no actual trigger looking mechanism in there. I think it's possible that MS might use both, or possible what look like trigger areas are just receivers for a signal. But yeah, pretty much agreed with Red on most of it. In non UC settings though I have no idea about triggering mechanisms.
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

Xenosynth wrote:One example, though unlikely, of the physical trigger being a bit bad was in 0080, when one of the GM's the Hygogg is fighting gets part of its arm blown open while it is pulling a trigger down on the machinegun it uses, it won't stop firing after the arm is damaged. Other than that though, it never really appeared that there were TOO many triggers in UC. The Dom's bazooka doesn't seem to have any on it, and nor do the bazookas shown in 0080. Some of my models do show what look like triggers, such as on the Nu Gundam's beam rifle, and some lack them like the Full Armor Gundam's Double Beam Rifle. My HGUC Kampfer's shotgun has a hole for a trigger finger but no actual trigger looking mechanism in there. I think it's possible that MS might use both, or possible what look like trigger areas are just receivers for a signal. But yeah, pretty much agreed with Red on most of it. In non UC settings though I have no idea about triggering mechanisms.
I always view the 0080 GM Cold district miss fire a malfunction.
An electronic signal was sent out to shoot, but since the arm was damaged, the signal telling it to stop didn't reach the gun, so it just keep shooting.
v_zubko
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

I presume that how the weapon is fired determines how it is triggered. Beam weapons fire supplying excess energy to a subcritical charge so the application of said energy is how it is triggered. Shell firing could be initiated mechanically with a striker/firing pin via trigger pull or electronically vie the energy applied from the hand plug.

Going from an electronic signal to move an actuator in the hand to move a trigger to initiate electronic firing of a weapon involves unnecessary analog-digital conversions. However, a shell firing weapon should probably be fired by mechanical trigger pull as there would be more redundancy in the wiring for hand actuation than in power line for a hand plug that is meant to also drive a beam weapon.

As for the weapon continuing to fire until it receives a termination signal, that is Star Trek level safety hazard. Any system that is only activated intermittently should be operated by an interrupt instead of a toggle switch. However, it is possible that the weapon had mechanical failure and slam fired instead.
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

v_zubko wrote:I presume that how the weapon is fired determines how it is triggered. Beam weapons fire supplying excess energy to a subcritical charge so the application of said energy is how it is triggered. Shell firing could be initiated mechanically with a striker/firing pin via trigger pull or electronically vie the energy applied from the hand plug.

Going from an electronic signal to move an actuator in the hand to move a trigger to initiate electronic firing of a weapon involves unnecessary analog-digital conversions. However, a shell firing weapon should probably be fired by mechanical trigger pull as there would be more redundancy in the wiring for hand actuation than in power line for a hand plug that is meant to also drive a beam weapon.

As for the weapon continuing to fire until it receives a termination signal, that is Star Trek level safety hazard. Any system that is only activated intermittently should be operated by an interrupt instead of a toggle switch. However, it is possible that the weapon had mechanical failure and slam fired instead.
Didn't think of that.
Yes, it should stop when it stops receiving the signal.

Considering the machine guns do need to keep on shooting if ordered to, a damaged hand could possibly have a short circuit that keeps the signal alive, at least for a short duration. And it doesn't take that long to empty the magazine anyway.
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

In general all the rifles in Gundam anime have physical triggers that have to be squeezed to fire the weapon. If nothing else, enough action shots show it happening. It seems redundant, but if a MS has fully articulated hands, might as well use them, right? :)
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Brave Fencer Kirby
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

We have examples of weapons being fired electrically, too. I can recall Amuro firing the Nu's bazooka at Char during CCA when the bazooka was still slung behind its back, not in-hand. The physical trigger mechanism is probably a redundant or failsafe feature; presumably the hand mechanism is less delicate than the electronic connection, and a physical trigger allows a weapon to be fired even in the case that battle damage (or just poor maintenance in the field) has rendered the electrical trigger nonfunctional.
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Zeonista
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

I'm not sure if that is the case, since the "shoot rifle" trigger would activate the hand's trigger finger, which would be an electronic command, anyway. (Not unlike the neural command when I shoot a firearm! :) ) The actual electronic circuits conveying the "shoot" command seem to be safe enough inside the MS frame, since any damage that would damage them would probably render the hand and/or arm servo useless.

I forgot Amuro shooting the Nu Gundam's bazooka that way. Time to get the CCA DVD out again! :) Since the Nu Gundam was Amuro's last word on Gundam, it might have had lots of nifty bits like that. Or maybe his Newtype level by that time let him remote fire it with a level of awesome!

v_zubko:
I remember that sequence. The severed hand obviously could not receive a "stop firing command", so the trigger finger held the trigger down until the weapon ran out of ammo. It's not a safety issue so much as a hazard caused by battle damage. (Small consolation to anyone downwind of that uncontrolled burst, but that's the way the GM cookie crumbles.) It didn't look like the other usual cause of an uncontrolled burst, which is a blowback-operation autofire weapon being dropped with an open bolt. In that case, the force of impact is enough to trigger a burst, (This nasty little feature is lampshaded and used as a gun stunt (the bouncing machine pistol) in True Lies.)
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Xenosynth
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

Well, also take a look at the Dom's Giant Bazooka, and some other bazookas. They almost never have triggers that I can see (Dom, Rick Dom II/Kampfers) The main weapons with triggers seem to be either machine guns or beam rifles themselves. I think the Zaku Bazooka has a trigger though so it might just be limited to the Giant Baz series of bazookas. Honestly sometimes it's hard to tell with certain weapons if it has an actual trigger or if it's just a slightly thinner edge or something.
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

Xenosynth wrote:Well, also take a look at the Dom's Giant Bazooka, and some other bazookas. They almost never have triggers that I can see (Dom, Rick Dom II/Kampfers) The main weapons with triggers seem to be either machine guns or beam rifles themselves. I think the Zaku Bazooka has a trigger though so it might just be limited to the Giant Baz series of bazookas. Honestly sometimes it's hard to tell with certain weapons if it has an actual trigger or if it's just a slightly thinner edge or something.
MS-18 Kampfer can shoot its bazookas mounted on its back, so there's no way it is just using a physical trigger.
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

The standard Zaku & Dom bazookas do have triggers, although theirs tends to be more set into the hand grip. Even with the Dom giant baz having a panzershreck-like look in the later anime, the trigger remains the same. The raketen bazooka has a button trigger at the top of its hand grip. The standard Gundam hyper bazooka has a trigger, as well as the Clay bazooka.

The Kampfer is an interesting case, since its bazookas are mounted inverted when they are stored on its back. In order to fire them from that position, an alternate electronic link would be required.
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CloudFF7
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

Another example of guns having an alternate firing mechanism would be the Raider Full Spec, with it's mounted guns on the subflight unit, and of course the original Raider Gundam's forearm mounted cannon.
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

Zeonista wrote:The standard Zaku & Dom bazookas do have triggers, although theirs tends to be more set into the hand grip. Even with the Dom giant baz having a panzershreck-like look in the later anime, the trigger remains the same. The raketen bazooka has a button trigger at the top of its hand grip. The standard Gundam hyper bazooka has a trigger, as well as the Clay bazooka.

The Kampfer is an interesting case, since its bazookas are mounted inverted when they are stored on its back. In order to fire them from that position, an alternate electronic link would be required.
The Clay bazooka can also be mounted onto the back of MSs and can shoot in that configuration.
A good example is the ZII.
Those can shoot in its MA mode.
Xenosynth
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

Yeah actually. Quite a few MA modes have the weapons mounted on them that are normally hand mounted and are fired without pulling a triggering mechanism. The Zeta, the Asshimar, the Gablthley, Gaplant Hrairoo (Which can also mount the end of the gun in the shoulder, the triggering mechanism area isn't being touched by anything in that configuration), Gaza C and D, etc.
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

The transforming MS have multiple activation triggers exactly for that reason; they are transformers, and need to use their main weapon(s) in either form. I watched CCA the other day and Amuro did indeed fire the hyper bazooka from his back after confusing Guerney. (Nicely illustrating the difference between a veteran and a talented rookie. ;) )
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Re: trigger mechanisms for MS guns

Using physical triggers specifically seems awfully redundant. Plug signals seems better.
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