Weapons Weight

[Evex]

I was doing some pacing in my room trying to figure something out, when a brainstorm idea hit me. For the most part we don't know how much any given weapon an ms uses weighs. For the most part this is due to us not officially being given a weapons weight. This is where I had that brainstorm I mentioned earlier. For the most part we have a way to determine weapon weight through another bandai product, gunpla.

In theory we could use a digital scale to weight say a beam saber, and then use a reverse scale to find its actual weight. For example take the weight of the Zeta Gundams beam saber and then multiple it by say 1/144 and then multiply by 100. At least I think that is how it works. From this we can essentially figure out a ms weapon max weight, max weight before the mass ratio is put in. It also gives use a way to find a mobile suits mass ratio, gotten by divide max gross by weapon max weight.

There are some issues to this theory though. The first and most obvious one would be that some gunpla are only produced in a certain scale. A second problem that crops up is with the newer kits and the newer plastic bandai is starting to use. In order to test this theory its best we use Zeta and Double Zeta Era mobile suits, since we all ready have the mass ratio on those suits. This means we all ready have an approximation of the max weight of the weapons on the mobile suit as well. Unfortunately this leas me to the third possible problem. We have little idea if this weapon weight is just for external mounted weapons/equipment (beam rifle, shield etc.), or are built in armaments included in that number, or are those armaments factored into the min weight ? For those wondering let me give you an example.

The bawoo weighs empty 34.7 metric tons and max gross at 67.5 metric tons and has a mass ratio of 1.66. This gives the bawoo a weapons max weight of 40.66 or 40.7 rounded up (67.5/1.66) . The weapons of the bawoo should fall with in a total of 5.96 or 6 tons to get this weight (40.66-34.7) (40.7-34.7). In theory the gunpla versions of the Bawoo weapons should fall with in the total of those two numbers.

[Xenosynth]

One issue I foresee though, is that the Gunpla models have different levels of hollowness and whatnot between grades. Sometimes, in the older HG line, Gunpla could have guns that are just two halves put together. And then with master grades, you have guns and parts in general that are a lot more filled in. And overall I don't think the model weight will really accurate correlate with the actual weight of the MS. And not to mention, model proportions are different than artwork and animation proportions for the most part.

[Bryant Molirse]

This is where I point to the game beta we have been playing lately for Gundam Breaker. The load outs are weight limited, and with a little magic (read math, and estimating) you might find out a reasonable set of weights. I started to try to do this before, as far as figuring out given weights for my gundam game, but got tired of doing it and gave up. The system I used was to take the empty weight, figure out the full weight difference, then do the following. First I would find the weapons that are not built into the machine. Integrated weapons would be part of the base empty weight since they would be removed from the machine. Next estimate the amount of fuel held on board the machine. So much of the full load weight would be based on that, so remove that. For the remaining amount, take the number of weapons that it is carrying. Estimate, using whatever info you can find about the ammo for them how much it would weigh, and remove that percentage form the weight. Then finally, take all the weapons, shields, that are hand carried or added equipment, and ration out the weight that's left between each item based on it's size, and construction. With a little tweaking you can get it pretty close to reasonable.

[Xenosynth]

But Bryant, the weight system in that game is completely arbitrary. I mean, it adds on weight for things that wouldn't techincally have weight as they are built in (Ex-Act skills and whatnot), and depending on the rareness rating of a part, some MS can't even be completed with all their own parts at this moment because of the fact the rareness level of a torso part is what affects the weight carry (1 star Freedom Torso can't support all the freedom parts and weapons).

The weight system in that game is just a system to balance out parts so you can't use the most powerful, not the most heavy. I really really doubt the Dom Tropen bazooka is less weighty than the Freedom's Rifle or Saber. Same with the Sinanju's shield vs the Freedom's shield, in the game the Freedom's is 'heavier' yet seems much smaller. Also, the Sinanju Torso right now for me has a higher weight cap than the Freedom. Also, oddly enough I found it funny the game uses the torso for weight issues, not the legs.

[Bryant Molirse]

I was referring to the weapons individual weights, not any of the parts. Take a base line example of rank 0 weapons, for commenting sake, a heat hawk, a beam saber, beam spray gun, a zaku machine gun, and a base bazooka. At the base end of the spectrum, you can see a small scale of weight difference between them, and start figuring out each item based on the series data of weights for the machine as they are listed on MAHQ. In no way was I quoting to use the weights from the game itself, but to use it to figure out a basic standard of, a heat hawk is say 70% heavier then a beam saber (made up number), and the like. I point to this game since you can acquire the parts fast enough that you aren't waiting for more data. For a breakdown of how to do this exactly, here goes.

For this example I will be using the MS-06F Zaku II F equipped with a set of combinations of the Zaku Bazooka, Zaku Crackers, Zaku Leg Missiles, Zaku Machine Gun, and a Zaku Heat Hawk. The following is the listed weights for the Zaku II F

Base Weight (Empty): 58.1
Full Weight: 73.3

The difference between the two is 15.2 metric tons. The Base Weight has the unit with no items, ammo, or fuel. The Full Weight would be the heaviest load out on the machine, meaning it would be equipped with a Bazooka, Leg Missiles, Crackers, and a Heat Hawk.

Gundam Breaker Weights
Zaku Bazooka: 270
Zaku Machine Gun: 240
Zaku Heat Axe: 240
*Legs Missiles, Crackers, and Spare Magazines not covered

The game lists the Zaku Machine Gun, and Heat Hawk as the same, yet the Bazooka is around 13% heavier. This makes sense due to the design of each item, and the way the weapons themselves are shaped. Both in metal density, and size.

Now comes the fuzzy stuff, the estimation of full weight of the ratio.......

meh I'll work on this later, like I said doing this stuff is a pita since the weights of fuel aren't out there.

[toysdream]

Yeah, it's tough given that we don't have mass ratios for any pre-Zeta (or post-ZZ) mobile suits. We can probably kind of estimate based on the vintage mobile suits that appear in those shows, though. For example, the GM II and GM III have weapons payloads of 5.0 tons; the Hizack, Galbaldy Beta, and Dowadge all carry 6.0 tons; the ReGelgu and EWAC Zack carry 4.0 tons.

As a rough estimate, then, I'd guess that the GM has a weapons payload of 5.0 tons, while the Dom and Gelgoog carry 6.0 tons. The Hizack to Zaku II comparison is a little trickier, since the Hizack has an extra shield, and carries either heat hawk and beam rifle or beam saber and machine gun. But maybe if we look at more Gundam Breaker stats, we can make some guesses about that...

No, it's not super-scientific, but it's a new set of data points to play with! That doesn't come along every day.

-- Mark

[Xenosynth]

That actually could work out better. I'm sorry for misinterpreting what you had said. I thought you just meant going off the raw game data alone. The example definitely helped my understanding.

Since I'll be getting the game day of, I can help get the parts since knowing me and Gundam videogames, I might manage to 100% it in a week or so (Though still working on early Gihren >_>. Then again early GG doesn't allow me to skip cutscenes or other things, this game doesn't really have a lot of that to it xD;)

The ranks for weapons themselves might not matter, IIRC all weapons have the same weight regardless of their rank, so I'd just need to 100% that much. The torso is the only thing that has a weight change I believe, it increases the weight capacity as rank goes up, but yeah, other than that I believe it is all static.

[toysdream]

Looks like a lot of the weapons data is listed on this Japanese wiki page...

http://www53.atwiki.jp/gandam_breaker/pages/23.html

Obviously these figures are partly for pricing purposes (this Japanese page labels the number as "equipment cost"), but there seems to be some correspondence to bulk - a beam saber is barely half the equipment cost of a heat hawk. We can also see that the equipment cost of the Zaku FZ's MMP-80 machine gun, at 460 points, is roughly equal to a classic Zaku machine gun plus heat hawk - so if the payload is constant, the Zaku FZ wouldn't normally have a heat hawk.

Let's list all the One Year War kit...

GM shield: 50
Gundam shield: 100

Beam saber: 150
Heat hawk: 240
Large heat hawk: 350

Beam spray gun: 150
Beam rifle: 270
Zaku machine gun: 240
Bullpup machine gun: 350
MMP-80 machine gun: 460

Zaku bazooka: 270
Raketen bazooka: 390

And some optional extras...

Head vulcans: 50
Diffuse beam: 100
Triple missile pod: 200
Extra beam saber: 200

-- Mark

[Bryant Molirse]

Excuse me Mark, but do you know what the weight difference was supposed to be between Titanium, Gundamium, and Gundarium? I thought I had heard a number value before. (ex. Gundamium is x% Lighter/Stronger than Titanium) If I knew those percentages I could probably get this a lot closer using the mass ratios you listed before. As similar items in size and density would only need that percentage of weight added back in, and they would be close enough to determine a rough estimate for the weapon weights. As this would also set the load weight for weapons separate from the fuel weights as well.

[Evex]

Hm that's an interesting idea you have there bryant. The question though is all the weapons weight universal for instance a Gundam MK. II Beam saber weighing the same as the RX-72 Beam saber, or even the GM Beam saber being the same weight as the RX-72's beam saber ? I decided to start small with the actual trying to figure out the ms weapons, and decided to start with Zeta Gundam's Methuss.

The methuss has a empty weight of 27.8 mt and a max gross of 52.4 mt. It then has a mass ratio of 1.45. With out the fuel its max gross is 36.1 given it a weapon weight of 8.3. The methuss is armed with 2x beam guns and 6x beam saber. The simplest numbers I found that fit this weight and the number of weapons is

beam gun = 4 metric tons
beam saber = .05 metric tons

(4*2)+(6*.05) = 8+.3= 8.3

I'm sure there are other numbers that could fit in to add up to 8.3. The problem in the calculation is the number of beam sabers, and the .3.

Edit

Other numbers that I've found to fit this "equation".

beam guns = 3.55 metric tons
beam saber = 0.2 metric tons

(2*3.55)+(6*0.2)= 7.1+1.2= 8.3

beam gun = 1.6 metric tons
beam saber = 0.85 metric tons

(2*1.6)+(6*0.85)= 3.2+5.1= 8.3

beam gun = 0.55 metric tons
beam saber = 1.2 metric tons

(2*0.55)+(6*1.2) = 1.1+7.2= 8.3

beam gun = 2.05 metric tons
beam saber = 0.7 metric tons

(2*2.05)+(6*0.7)= 4.1+4.2 = 8.3

[Bryant Molirse]

First part (editted in cause I forgot about it while typing up the other part lol)

Hm that's an interesting idea you have there bryant. The question though is all the weapons weight universal for instance a Gundam MK. II Beam saber weighing the same as the RX-72 Beam saber, or even the GM Beam saber being the same weight as the RX-72's beam saber ? I decided to start small with the actual trying to figure out the ms weapons, and decided to start with Zeta Gundam's Methuss.

The weapons weight between the two machines you have listed might be very similar, depending on the construction material. Like I pointed to before, there are clear differences in the construction materials used during UC as there are various upgrades to the metallurgy as the series progress. Since the materials used to build change, the weights would as well. This would be like comparing an objects weight when made out of cast iron, to an exact duplicate made out of aluminum.

And unfortunately your formula is flawed, the Beam Guns are hard mounted to the arms. This means their weight is part of the units 27.8 mt empty weight. Any hard mounted weapon, like head vulcans, chest cannons, arm guns, that are bolted to a machine, are part of it's base weight, since these can't be removed/replaced easily. Their ammo does however count towards the machines total max weight, however if I am not mistaken, the machine you chose to look at doesn't use Ecaps, and since they are beam weapons do not consume traditional ammo, so they wouldn't count in the weight count of the 8.3 mt this time.

Hand held weapons however are lost all the time, and aren't typically counted in a machines empty weight, in this case, a set of beam sabers, but on other units, they are items like beam rifles, or bazookas. In this case it means that the entirety of the 8.3 tons is made up of the 6x beam sabers weight. Dividing that 8.3 by 6 nets each sabers weight at roughly 1.384 mt. This in pounds is 3,051 lbs., which is roughly the weight of a compact car. (ex. Ford Focus/Festiva Hatchbag, VW GTI, Fiat 500, Honda CRX)

The very first number you quoted, 0.05 metric tons, equals 110 lbs. If this number was correct, myself, as a human, in real life, could lift, and swing the beam saber with my own two hands at that weight, the same is true at 0.02 mt, as that would only be 44 lbs. As for the rest, see my chart below.

For Fast Referencing
0.05 = 110 lbs
0.02 = 44 lbs
0.85 = 1873 lbs
1.2 = 2645 lbs
0.7 = 1543 lbs

P.S.
Back to the very first post of this thread for a moment. There is a way to use model kits to determine weights, however it is very convoluted, and will only give you some fuzzy numbers at best (then again in Gundam all numbers are fuzzy, and subject to change with the next source book). This does not involve weighing them in any way. This is through measuring the surface area, and thickness, of say a shield, then finding out the same amount of surface area of the kit in question it would take to equal it. This percentage of the total could then be divided by the units empty weight, to give you the amount of the full load weight it takes up. This would involve a lot of math, and measuring, and personally, I have no interest in trying it, but if anyone here is craz-, um enthusiastic enough to try it, by all means.



As for rifles, I would say do the same measurements, then reduce the total surface area by 15% to account for the voids inside the weapon. It won't be an entirely accurate weight, but it would be better then nothing.

[Nebfer]

Well one thing to note is that Ammo is heavy, and that 120mm guns are not exactly light either.

The 120m gun on the Abrams is roughly 3 metric tons with it's mounting, the lightest 120mm ammo is around 18kg (current ammo used by the Abrams is around 25kg, if you want WW2 era ammo that's over 50kg).

So a 100 round drum of 120mm ammo can easily be 2+ tons, and the gun it self probably is in the 2 to 3 ton range.

The 90mm based guns used latter would be noticeably lighter.