Multiplying Divisions with Zeon

[toysdream]

Yes, it does. I'm not sure how to weight the Kawaguchi-supervised info from the MSV Collection File versus, say, the mention in Zeta Gundam Part 3 of the GM being rushed and accident-prone. Certainly, we know of a few Zaku variations - the infamous R type, and the latest MSV-R book has added the MS-06FS to that list - that were really unreliable and spent more time being serviced than actually fighting. But the Zaku series has a long history and lots of practical experience behind it, so you'd expect it to be pretty decent in this department.

It's possible that the 60% operating rate for the Zaku II is too lowball an estimate, or that it applied to earlier versions but not the more stable later ones. As I noted, it seems like later teams don't have as many spares, and we don't see many "fifth units" after that episode of MS Igloo. So whatever the operating rate may be, it seems like the Zeons eventually start going by the assumption that at least 75% of their Zakus will be working at the same time, and if you have four Zakus you'll be able to deploy three at once.

When it comes to newer models, of course, all bets are off. Who knows how many of those awesome new Gelgoogs turned out to be "hangar queens"?

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

Regarding the Gelgoogs, using the Chimera Corps as an example it would seem to have an operation rate of around 50%:

-For starters, we have 31 pilots assigned to 24 machines. Supposing the pilots were rotated in 3 turns, we would have 10-11 pilots per turn at all times.

-For operation Clarion, we had 12 Gelgoogs deployed.

It would also be interesting to know if these were supposed to be organized in such manner that there were two different groups for the tests: 1) the 12 B-Types and 2) the 12 C-types, so that all machines of one type would be operational at the same time for the tests.

In any case, know I'm left wondering what units were assigned to the remaining 29 Chimera Corps pilots (after Operation Clarion) that got the short stick at A Baoa Qu and were not assigned one of the 19-22 Gelgoogs (depending on whether the medium-damaged units could be repaired on time) available for that battle?

[toysdream]

I think they probably just went with whatever was working at the time, since the backpacks were pretty easy to swap round. (As demonstrated by the MS-14C-1A from the MSV-R series, which doesn't always use the cannon pack.)

One longstanding mystery that's finally been cleared up by the MSV-R features in Gundam Ace is why there are two different Johnny Ridden Gelgoogs - an MS-14B with the unit number 010, and an MS-14C with a slightly different color scheme and the unit number 011. Apparently, the C type was a spare unit reserved for Ridden's use, specifically because these machines required so much maintenance time. It seems this was an exceptional measure taken for Ridden's benefit, but that means we have 30 other pilots fighting over just 22 machines, a good number of which are probably out of order at any given time!

-- Mark

[Mark064]

Wouldn't Chimera eventually get more Gelgoogs as Zeon started to mass produce them? It seems silly to belive that Zeon left them at not enough Gelgoogs for their top pilots yet were giving rookies them.

[Zeonista]

Regarding the operation rate of Federation and Zeon MS, doesn't these ratios contradicts other ideas, such as the GM supposedly being an accident-prone machine, or the Zaku (particularly the Zaku Kai) being referred to as a machine easy to mantain. The later probably applies to most Zaku type MS though, considering how many post OYW anti-Federation groups use Zakus of different types so many years later. Many of those groups probably don't even have access at all to supplies to properly mantain them.

Such maintenance issues make it sound like the Zaku is a machine that doesn't require much maintenance, while making the GM sound like a machine that might be in need of constant maintenance, which in turn seems to contradicts the operation ratios.

The early model GM types were quickly produced and sent into action. In real-life terms this would mean doing without a lot of extensive testing to de-bug the design. Due to the RX-78-2, most of that had already been accomplished, but MS are complex machines, right? Lots of fiddly bits and program sub-routines to go wrong and affect larger systems of operation, right? In that sense the new GMs, once used in action, would quickly exhibit any number of flaws and glitches that would have to be dealt with, and it would affect the readiness estimates a lot. The wrench crews must have turned the air blue for a while with their curses until certain problems were dealt with.

By contrast the Zaku I & Zaku II MS deployed at the beginning of OYW already had their problems solved, and were available in numbers, and their pilots and maintenance crews were confident. A 60% efficiency estimate in "runner" strength sounds very bad at first. My roomie, who is ex-US Army, bluntly stated that a 60% effectiveness rating would end military careers left and right during a peacetime inspection. However, he allowed that since war imposes its own random limitations on logistics, and Zakus also have lots of fiddly bits, a 60% effective strength for the period covered by the TV anime would seem acceptable as a low-end figure. I'd say offhand the effectiveness rating for a ZMF unit in full working order would be 75%, with the fourth machine held in reserve (as described above). To be sure, the ZMF commanders don't seem to have gotten their boxers in a twist because the numbers of MS involved in an operation didn't add up. The number of MS used were the amount of MS deemed necessary (or available) and the company commanders could sort out the tactical organization to make things run smoother on their end.

[Nebfer]

Well AFAIK A low operational rate and a high maintainability rate are not entirely the same thing.

The Zaku II could be easy to fix but had a lousy reliability rate, Alternatively Zeon could of had a pore Maintenance command on earth, with or with out an ineffective supply system.

So it's possible the Zaku II was a easy unit to maintain but unreliable (at lest earlier models) this was exacerbated by the fact that they could of had a lousy supply line. Or their maintenance teams where just sub par (Many Arab country's militarys have lousy maintenance ability's despite the fact that their logistical capability's where quite good, so not every army is good at every thing). Alternately they just had really lousy supply lines (particularly on their spare parts areas)...

For the Feds the GM could of been a lousy machine but the feds might of had a much better supply system and better maintenance crews which kept their units up and running a bit more.
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Edit:

Though the size of the forces involved has interested me from time to time...
Well the Numbering system seems was based off the Germans in WW2 and Zeon dose use a fair bit of German WW2 flavorings...

Though it dose beg the question are the Mobile divisions based of Panzer Divisions? or are they some thing else? as 5 divisions to invade your opponent seems a bit low, it seems more likely that a Division here is in fact a Army by any other name... As if we go by the Odessa numbers, if that was a single "Division" (~1,000,000 troops) then that's the size of a Army Group... Though this dose not inherently mean the numbers of Mobile suits need to be increased drastically...

Alternatively What era Panzer Division? a 1940s Panzer Division is quite a bit different than a 1944 one.

The well known 1944 Division had 8 company's of tanks in two battalions in a single regiment and four battalion of infantry in two regiments (and a artillery regiment of 3 battalions, not to mention the other divisional battalions, engineer, recon, Anti Tank and AA...). But the 1940s Division had a Brigade of one or two Panzer regiments with 3 or 4 battalions in the Brigade, each battalion had 3 company's (9-12 company's per Division, each of around 22 tanks), and theirs was a infantry brigade of one or two regiments of motorized infantry, but most only had one regiment. And their was the usual divisional supporting units. In 1941 most Panzer Division gave up the second Panzer Regiment to create more Panzer divisions (but started gaining that second infantry regiment).


Is their any info on these Divisions? where they landed? their organization? where they operated?

[Zeonista]

Zeon MS forces would be saved from parts shortages by 2 events.
1. The wartime effort to create a number of universal parts that could be used regardless of make or model.
2. The use of captured facilities on Earth (especially California Base) to produce MS & MS parts closer to the fighting.

However, as the ghost of Albert Speer could tell us, production is one thing, supply is another! So it's likely that the effects of war could lower battlefield efficiency. This is how it's been in war ever since Sargon the Great, and a serious story like U.C. Gundam is no different. The Spacenoids were proficient with machinery from necessity of living in space, so I do not doubt the ability of the ZMF mechanics and technicians. Now, making sure they have the correct parts and fiddly bits on hand to use for the repairs and upkeep, again, that's where things can break down in the supply chain. (Literally! )

The GM would have initially had performance issues that were not something that could be fixed with routine maintenance. That would fall under the category of "troubleshooting", and would have been done on a systematic fix, with debugging solutions shared among all the GM units and suppliers for future reference. By the end of the One Year War I'm certain that the EFF crews had mastered all the big problems, aided by the one-frame-fits-all GM design.

I am in agreement that the word "division" might not mean the same thing to the ZMF as it would to the Wehrmacht, or even the US army both during WW II and the present day. The Zeon "division" would have its MS regiment, a conventional armor regiment, a motorized infantry regiment, and an artillery force of some size included as well, not to mention the HQ/Communications units, and the medical units. Despite a low head-count of combat personnel, the MS regiment would have a lot of maintenance and transport personnel included as well, to raise its overall numbers!

[toysdream]

Wouldn't Chimera eventually get more Gelgoogs as Zeon started to mass produce them? It seems silly to belive that Zeon left them at not enough Gelgoogs for their top pilots yet were giving rookies them.

It seems to have been "first come, first served." By the time Char gets to A Baoa Qu, there aren't any more Gelgoogs left - or, for that matter, any mobile suits with legs.


As for the relative reliability of the Zaku and the GM: The Zaku series may have been well tested and proven by the start of the war, but not necessarily on Earth, where there are all kinds of environment issues to deal with, gravity, dirt, etc. I could easily imagine the operating rate for the Zaku in space being a lot higher than on Earth, thus requiring the Zeons to set aside more reserve units for the ground forces. Maintaining three working Zakus per team might only require one spare in space, but two on the ground.


And following up on Nebfer's musings, I think the organization scheme for the Terrestrial Mobile Divisions is pretty clearly based on panzer divisions, even more specifically on the 1944 version. That one lonely regiment of mobile suits would be supplemented by tanks, artillery, infantry, and whatever else the Zeons could throw in there. Mobile Suit Variation 1 gives us a pretty typical example of the kind of organization charts we've seen published over the years.

And yes, we know plenty about these divisions and their areas of operation. In a nutshell, there are five of them: the first was deployed in Europe, the second and third on the coasts of North America, the fourth in Asia and Australia, and the fifth was deployed to Africa and the Middle East. M'Quve's mining unit, which is based at Odessa, is a separate organization that reports directly to Kycilia Zabi rather than going through the regular Earth Attack Force chain of command. The explanation of this in Mobile Suit Variation 2 has basically become the standard account.

-- Mark

[Sabersonic]

Boy, been a long time since I've replied to anything around here...

Anyway, to get this brainfart out of my head so I can think properly for the rest of the day, I'm afraid that I'll have to to off-topic a smidgen with the debate on operational efficiency and reliability. The thought being, what if we compare the Zaku and the GM to contemporary fire arms AK-47 and M-16.

It's a brainfart. What did you expect, logic?

The thought goes like this: Like the AK-47, the Zaku series is easy to maintain and dumb soldier-resistant and can get by with the most barest of logistics. However the Zaku isn't very efficient outside of a particular envelope and noticeably suffers because of this due to its design having gaps and whatnots to make it reliable and easy to maintain out in the field.

The GM, on the other hand, is like the M-16. Precision engineered and highly efficient for what it's designed to do. However, it's designed with such narrow margins that if it's not maintained properly and allowed to have something jam the inner workings, it just doesn't work. In fact, it takes more work to fix it than to maintain the thing.

All in all, this brain fart is one way to rationalize the whole operational efficiency and maintenance foot note issue.

[Nebfer]

As for the relative reliability of the Zaku and the GM: The Zaku series may have been well tested and proven by the start of the war, but not necessarily on Earth, where there are all kinds of environment issues to deal with, gravity, dirt, etc. I could easily imagine the operating rate for the Zaku in space being a lot higher than on Earth, thus requiring the Zeons to set aside more reserve units for the ground forces. Maintaining three working Zakus per team might only require one spare in space, but two on the ground.

A likely assumption, after all IIRC the odd shape of the Dopp stems from the limited space in a colony. With limited space available for ground testing, not to mention limited 1G testing areas (also environments, Desert, Arctic, Humidity...) It would be some what likely that the Zakus did not get fully tested for earth environments...

And following up on Nebfer's musings, I think the organization scheme for the Terrestrial Mobile Divisions is pretty clearly based on panzer divisions, even more specifically on the 1944 version. That one lonely regiment of mobile suits would be supplemented by tanks, artillery, infantry, and whatever else the Zeons could throw in there. Mobile Suit Variation 1 gives us a pretty typical example of the kind of organization charts we've seen published over the years.

Interesting, I would assume your note on the supposed typo of that each division had "five divisions" is likely noting that each division was comprised of five sub elements (Regiments or Brigades), for example each Division (per the chart) has 5 brigades each of a Mobile suit battalion, Armor battalion, Infantry Battalion, ect. Though each battalion only has 3 company's of 3 teams, if we assume it's 3 suits per team plus 1 for the CO commander and 6 for Btln HQ (and recon/support elements) then we get 180 suits for the Division, though if we assume 5 per team plus 2 per CO HQ and Btln that's roughly 265 suits...

But this layout would not inherently make to be based off a WW2 era Panzer Division...
Though technically a Division could be a lot larger than what was used in WW2 to today. Back in 1917 before the US joined in WW1 the organization we had adopted but not implemented had 3 infantry brigades of 3 regiments of 3 battalions... a 3 regiment artillery brigade and a Calvary regiment for a Division of 13 regiments (14 if you include the Engineer regiment), over all manpower was around 28,000 men, it even had a squadron of aircraft (roughly twice that of a WW2 era division)*.

And yes, we know plenty about these divisions and their areas of operation. In a nutshell, there are five of them: the first was deployed in Europe, the second and third on the coasts of North America, the fourth in Asia and Australia, and the fifth was deployed to Africa and the Middle East. M'Quve's mining unit, which is based at Odessa, is a separate organization that reports directly to Kycilia Zabi rather than going through the regular Earth Attack Force chain of command. The explanation of this in Mobile Suit Variation 2 has basically become the standard account.

-- Mark

Though the real question is are these Divisions in actuality corps or armies or just divisions?

If the Numbers provided by the stats on Odessa would indicate army or army group sized forces on both sides. But Gundam has a habit of being some what contradictory on this..

Interestingly IIRC their was a shot during the attack on Jaburo, where we can see the Zeon airborne forces bring in their troops, and you can count ~48 of them IIRC most of them seemed or implied to be Gaws, which would indicate ~144 suits in Chars attack, if true then it would seem that 80% never made it to the ground (as you say only 28 made it to the ground?).

* The US only adopted Permanent Divisions around 1913, before that everything above regimental level was reserved for wartime use only.

[toysdream]

During the Jaburo attack, each Gaw is escorted by three Dopp fighters. We only see 12 Gaws onscreen (and 36 Dopps), but some of the Japanese publications have claimed there are 13, 16, or even 18 Gaws. (That last figure is from Entertainment Bible 39, which accordingly credits the Zeon force with 54 mobile suits.) But since only 28 mobile suits actually reach the ground intact, according to an onscreen report by the Federation Forces, beefing up the airborne force only serves to make their attrition look even worse.

However many mobile suits are on those planes, it's apparently a big chunk of the California Base's fighting strength. Aside from EB 39's ridiculous claim of 1100 Zeon mobile suits at Odessa, we've never seen more than a few dozen mobile suits gathered together for any terrestrial battle.

As for whether the Zeon forces are divisions or not... well, they call them divisions! Certainly the number of mobile suits assigned to each appears to be on the order of a WWII panzer division, however many non-mobile suit units are lumped in alongside them.

-- Mark

[Zeonista]

The 1944 Panzer Division model is valid for the ZMF division, at the least for the first 5 divisions which spearheaded the invasion. Additional units could have been landed later to make use of captured EFF facilities and provide extra conventional vehicles and infantry to support the 5 mobile divisions. I suppose many members remain dubious at 168 MS being an effective number, I would endorse it. The Zaku F (and the Zaku J modified for terrestrial combat) were sturdy, all-around general attack vehicles with natural adaptability. They also had a profound psychological effect on the EFF forces trying to stop them with conventional AT weapons. In this respect, 88 MS spread out on a wide front in company strength could provide the rapid advances the ZMF was able sustain in their initial advances, before the point of stalemate on Earth was reached. The new weapons had a real effect on battles; even a few of them could alter the tide of battle, as is shown in the anime time and again. For the Zeons of California Base, 48 MS & 36 Dopps were a sizable commitment of strength to assaulting Jaburo. That would represent slightly over half a MS regiment and most of a fighter wing. No wonder Char tried to blow up as many GMs as he could before the battle! The loss of so many MS and planes in a single defeat would definitely have forced the ZMF to evacuate California Base and return to space.

I am becoming more skeptical of EB 39, which seems to have been written with a highly creative viewpoint.

[toysdream]

Lots of corroborating evidence for the notion that each division has less than 200 mobile suits. Consider the Zaku Desert Type, which was developed as the mainstay of the Africa-based 5th Terrestrial Mobile Division. Originally, just 84 units of this type were produced; later in the war, they did a supplemental run of 28 extra machines. Not very many machines to cover all of Africa and the Middle East, but when supplemented by Magella Attack tanks and other conventional weapons, it seems to have been enough.

And yes, EB 39 is basically cracktastic, and also seems to have been created with blatant disregard for the info in the MSV series (although it does appear to track Gundam Century fairly well). According to the Japanese Wikipedia page devoted to it, this may have been intentional:

Much of the setting was newly invented, and there are many parts which disagree with the anime and Mobile Suit Variation. This was because Bandai's staff asked Hiroshi Yamaguchi to invent freely, since it wasn't official setting. Thus, the contents of this work are unofficial setting, but things such as General Revil's warship being called "Ananke" or the space colony dropped in Operation British being named "Island Iffish" have been adopted as semi-official setting.

Be that as it may, a lot of the stuff in that book is simply insane, such as the claim that the top Zeon aces shot down over a hundred Federation mobile suits each. Pretty good for guys fighting in a space campaign that lasted exactly one week!

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

Mark, do you have a head count of the forces deployed by Garma during the North America? He seems to have very few forces at his disposal, particularly MS, despite his position as commander of the entire EAF.

Also, after his death, his girlfriend and an officer take 3 Gaws, without support units, to attack White Base. I thought this meant to indicate that their base was out of MS and Dopps after the previous attacks and the Gaws were the only thing available. Even Char's Zaku seems to be undergoing maintenance since he suddenly jumps into the fray piloting a Luggun out of all things.

And regarding the African forces, would you happen to still have your notes with the information you posted about them in the defunct Gundam Evolution forums?

[toysdream]

If you mean the forces Garma deployed against the White Base, it's pretty pathetic - by my tally, 66 Dopps, 24 Magella Attacks, and just ten Zakus including Char's machine.

As I think we've discussed before, during the North America episodes, the Zakus are generally deployed from Gaws. Gaws are also the major way of deploying Dopp fighters. Although the Gaw supposedly carries 8 Dopps, in practice, each Gaw is normally accompanied by 12 Dopps which seem to rotate through its hangars; when it first appears, there'll be six flying escort, and then six more are launched for combat.

What this suggests, then, is that the limited number of mobile suits are kept at major bases where they can be rapidly dispatched aboard Gaw carriers. Out in the field, most of the ground forces seem to be Magella Attack tanks and other conventional weapons, with maybe one or two Zakus here and there.

I don't think I have any particular notes on the African forces, although we can get a pretty good idea of their strength and deployments by cobbling together info from various sources. It's interesting to note that Roy Greenwood, who holds the rank of Lt. Commander and leads the famous Caracal Corps, technically only commands a team-scale mobile suit force (Team A of the 1st Mobile Suit Battalion). If we think of the Caracal mobile suit team as being just the core of a larger force made up of conventional weapons, this makes a lot more sense.

-- Mark

[Wingnut]

It also makes that one unit that attacked with the hover buggy things by planting bombs on the Gundam had just that one Zaku to their name if that's the case all around NA.

[toysdream]

I think that episode took place in Asia, but yeah, same principle. Like I mentioned on the previous page, the only times in the original series we ever see Zeon's Earth forces deploy more than 3-4 mobile suits at once are M'Quve's ambush in episode 22, and the Jaburo attack(s). You could say the same for The 08th MS Team, as well.

This is backed up by the MSV series, as well. The old MSV books say, and the new MSV-R ones repeat, that the J type Zaku was produced in relatively small numbers:

The production numbers of the J type were small compared to those of the F type, and for the most part it could only be used individually or in small formations.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

And since we touched the topic, do we have any tallies for the number of Gaws produced? IIRC, the japanese wiki said a total of 40 were produced, but considering Icelina took 3 Gaws from the base, makes me think that it could have been a more common type of ship than that.

We know that he EAF loses at least 4 Gaws during the events before White Base's escape from North America. If Gaws are as scarce as the japanese wiki says and the at least 12 Gaws were also part of the base's Gaw complement, that means that California Base alone had 40% of all available Gaws at their disposal.

Furthermore, instead of just crediting the initiative to commence Operation Odessa to Garma's death, I think we could also consider that in the scenario where the Base's total was 16 Gaws, and a fourth of these were lost at nearly the same, this would add further pressure to Zeon's already constrained supply lines at that point in the war, in turn providing the Federation further momentum for their attack.

In fact, in the very next mission after Garma's death, when the Midnight Fenrir Corps and their 5 MS are ordered to head to Odessa as the only reinforcements California Base can afford to send, the base's new commander tells them that they can't have the luxury of transporting them in Gaws, so they are to be transported in submarines instead.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

What this suggests, then, is that the limited number of mobile suits are kept at major bases where they can be rapidly dispatched aboard Gaw carriers. Out in the field, most of the ground forces seem to be Magella Attack tanks and other conventional weapons, with maybe one or two Zakus here and there.

This makes a lot of sense; most sources agree that (during the One Year War, at least) mobile suits are rare, valuable, and powerful units. To get the most bang out of your buck for them, you'd want your mobile suits to be in combat as often as is logistically feasible. In a conventional campaign that'd mean keeping them on the front lines, but in a place like North America in September 0079, which is at least nominally under Zeon control (and thus doesn't really have a front line) keeping them in reserve as a rapid-reaction force seems like the best way to use them. The game them becomes a matter of making sure you only engage the enemy in situations that favor you -- Zeon wants to force decisive confrontations where their Zakus can turn the tide in their favor, while the Federation wants to grind Zeon away through attrition and guerrilla tactics.

[Gelgoog Jager]

By the way, is the low supply of MS partly due to the two different chains of command?

During the first half of the series, the forces responding to Garma and Dozle seem to have a significant shortage of MS, most of which seem to be Zakus anyway.

On the other hand, Kycillia's and M'Quve's troops seem to have better units and in rather large numbers. M'Quve deploys 8 Goufs at a single time, plus one more that got shot a bit earlier. He also has the Black-Tri Stars 3 Doms, 2 more seen in MS Igloo and at least 1 Gouf Custom. Then there's the Mad Angler's squad, composed of at least 1 Mad Angler, 4 Jukons, 6 Z'goks, 3 Goggs and 1 Grublo.

Maybe we could even atribute California's Base "large" numbers at the time of the Jaburo attack to the presence of the surviving troops from Odessa. We do are told that submarine fleets were sent to retrieve some of them.

Anyway, probably neither the MS-07B Gouf or MS-09B Dom are being produced at California Base by the time of Garma's arc: mass production of the MS-07B Gouf has been probably cancelled at that point, and whatever units were produced must have been sent to the frontlines where they are most required. Meanwhile, the YMS-09/MS-09A and derived units produced at California are probably also being sent to the frontlines as soon as they are completed. This is seen in the case of the YMS-09D, from which 10 units have been sent to the frontline and 10 were in the middle of the conversion process from YMS-09 and therefore we are told that the federation didn't capture any actual YMS-09D.

On the other hand, M'Quve's troops could probably have a monopoly of Granda's MS-07B Goufs and MS-09B Doms. By the way, are Ghinias forces part of MAF's chain of command? If that was the case, the fact that they are one of the few Zeon forces that get both Doms and a Gouf Custom could further confirm the favoritism for supplying new MS.