The Bigness of Smaller Things

[toysdream]

A couple of years ago, I put up a thread called The Bigness of Things, devoted mainly to scale comparisons of Gundam-world spaceships. Mythsearcher recently kicked off a similar thread, Size of ships and LARGE objects, for all your ship-measuring needs. But what about the little guys?

So that's the focus for this thread - working out the proper sizes of mobile suits, mobile armors, aircraft, etc. There's a lot to be said about mobile armors, but let's warm up with a detailed analysis of the Gelgoog and the controversial question of where its height should be measured from. Head? Crest? Antenna? What do you think?

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... arison.jpg

-- Mark

[AmuroNT1]

I had a thought about this recently, actually. I have scans from several B-Club magazines, and they tend to feature the standard height chart for the series' MS. Couldn't those be used to determine whether height measures are to the top of the "skull", crest, commander antenna or whatnot?

[toysdream]

Quite possibly. They may not be exactly to scale, but they should tell us which mobile suits the animators consider to be taller or shorter. For example, the Gundam 0083 lineups - I haven't scanned those yet - put the head of the Gelgoog Marine a little bit below that of the Dom Tropen and Gundam GP02A, both of which are 18.5 meters tall. This suggests that, unlike mecha designer Akitaka, the folks compiling the lineups don't think the Gelgoog Marine is 19.2 meters at the crown of its head.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

I have a suggestion: how about scaling the Gelgoogs so that they have a similar hand size? Out of all their possibly shared features, I think that having manipulators of the same size is the most important in order to allow weapon compatibility.

We have discussed this in other threads: how this became an issue with the original Dom, whose large hands required the use of a specialzied wide grip Zaku Machinegun, and also how some later UMP-complaint machines such as the Dom from Ghinias' base seemed to have adressed this issue in order allow it to use the same 120mm machinegun used by the base's Zaku JC-type.

The Gelgoog which was designed with the UMP in mind most have certainly prioritized issues such as weapon compatibility among different models, and possibly backward compatibility with older MS weapons.

That said, it might be for the best not to use the image of Char's YMS-14 for such comparison, as it has particularly big hands. Some better options could be the MSV-R Gelgoogs which have more proportioned hands, or the Gelgoogs from MS Igloo.

[toysdream]

Hands? That seems a bit sketchy, given the wide variation in how the mecha designers draw these, but you could give it a try...

Meanwhile, I just remembered we have another official variation to account for, namely the Desert Gelgoog featured in Gundam UC. It seems pretty likely that its height of 19.8 meters would be measured at the crest, but it turns out that when you add this guy to the lineup, it suggests an even smaller head height. I've updated the original graphic; see what you think.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

A couple of years ago, I put up a thread called The Bigness of Things, devoted mainly to scale comparisons of Gundam-world spaceships. Mythsearcher recently kicked off a similar thread, Size of ships and LARGE objects, for all your ship-measuring needs. But what about the little guys?

So that's the focus for this thread - working out the proper sizes of mobile suits, mobile armors, aircraft, etc. There's a lot to be said about mobile armors, but let's warm up with a detailed analysis of the Gelgoog and the controversial question of where its height should be measured from. Head? Crest? Antenna? What do you think?

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... arison.jpg

-- Mark

I will say that I prefer the smaller version.
The MS strategy analysis book got it quite well, you need to have a lot of standards set for war machines for economic reasons, Zeon ships are designed for the 17.5m Zakus, and that's a standard to follow.(while the EFSF's ships are designed around the RX-78-2/GM, so its 18m)
Units that are too big, like the Rick Dom reduces the unit cap, and is perfectly rational. So if the Gelgoogs are that big, you need not only bigger space for it, you need bigger machines to build it, repair it and make it function, I can understand the Rick Dom being a machine from a rival company, the Zimmad, thus they use a different set of standards, but for the Gelgoog, its from the same company, Zeonic co., so that's little chance it will be much bigger than the Zaku. If we look at the Zaku S type, it will be about 2m taller with the antenna(given the head is about 2m tall and the antenna is about the same), about 19.5m which will make it close to the Gelgoog's 19.2m with the mohawk.(which is a part of its head so is included in the head height, unlike the antenna of the Zaku, which is an optional equiment.)

Edit:
I made this image for another discussion(Armour of GM vs Gelgoog) today,
http://truth.bahamut.com.tw/s01/201302/ ... fa281d.JPG
Got the lineart from dalong.net and using the MG designs, which we can get front view of the MS, thus more accurate measure.
I used the GM head height 18m as a reference point, made the black and red scale, than resized the Gelgoog total height at 19.2m, and placed the MS-06F next to it, rescaled to 17.5m.
I am seeing serious maintenance problems using the same MS carriers.

[toysdream]

No kidding! That's a pretty huge size difference, isn't it?

I think we actually have three options for sizing the Gelgoog, as I've outlined in my updated chart. We can take the official height of 19.2 meters and map that either to the crown of the head, the top of the crest, or the top of the (optional) antenna.

Most of the recent toy and model versions go with the first of these options, but the MSV kits went with the second (19.2 meters at crest), and the earliest model kits (the 1/144, 1/100, and 1/60 kits released during 1981) were all sized so that Char's Gelgoog would be about 19.2 meters at its antenna, and about 18 meters at the head. This is the last option on my graphic, at the far right, and I think it works pretty well by comparison with the Gyan and Galbaldy Beta.

As it happens, the early 1/144, 1/100, and 1/60 model kits of Char's Zaku released between 1980 and 1981 were generally sized so that its height at antenna was also about 19.2 meters. If that were the case, then the Gelgoog would actually be compatible with the maximum height ceiling previously established by the Zaku II!

Looking at the schematics for the latest Ver.2.0 Master Grade kits, it looks like the antenna height of the MS-06S is just over 8% higher than the head, so a 17.5-meter Zaku II would measure 19 meters at the antenna. For the Gelgoog, it's about 4.8% higher at the crest and about 7.5% higher at antenna. So if the Gelgoog is 19.2 meters at head, then it's about 20.1 at crest and 20.6 at antenna; if it's 19.2 meters at crest, then it's about 18.3 at head and 19.7 at antenna; if it's 19.2 meters at antenna, then it's 17.9 at head and 18.7 at crest. Whew!

Here's a quick comparison graphic similar to yours, using the Ver.2.0 schematics and showing the Gelgoog at all three sizes (head 19.2m, crest 19.2m, antenna 19.2m). In the last scenario, the Gelgoog is looking downright reasonable next to the Zaku II, but see what you think...

-- Mark

[AmuroNT1]

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not sure why they'd count the height from something that some units don't even have (namely, the commander antenna).

Also, was it ever determined if "hero-type" MS (read: Gundams of all stripes and GMs) measure height by the top of the head proper or the "mohawk" camera thing?

[Gelgoog Jager]

Here's a quick comparison graphic similar to yours, using the Ver.2.0 schematics and showing the Gelgoog at all three sizes (head 19.2m, crest 19.2m, antenna 19.2m). In the last scenario, the Gelgoog is looking downright reasonable next to the Zaku II, but see what you think...

-- Mark

That image reminded me of the first pick of this page, showing a Gelgoog and Karen's GM head standing next to each other:

Gundam Battle Operation Updates

This game in particular made a blog entry that included a comment regarding size. It's the first paragraph below the Gyan image:

Gundam Battle Operation Blog

I checked it with google translator and tried to make sense of the translation, which said something like this:

They tried to keep things on scale for the game since it included infantry (as well as Wappas, Tanks, etc), and that while most MS are considered to be of around 18m, there were also 20m machines, making reference to the Gelgoog. There's also mention of the Dom whose large form also makes it an easier target in the game.

[MythSearcher]

No kidding! That's a pretty huge size difference, isn't it?

I think we actually have three options for sizing the Gelgoog, as I've outlined in my updated chart. We can take the official height of 19.2 meters and map that either to the crown of the head, the top of the crest, or the top of the (optional) antenna.

Most of the recent toy and model versions go with the first of these options, but the MSV kits went with the second (19.2 meters at crest), and the earliest model kits (the 1/144, 1/100, and 1/60 kits released during 1981) were all sized so that Char's Gelgoog would be about 19.2 meters at its antenna, and about 18 meters at the head. This is the last option on my graphic, at the far right, and I think it works pretty well by comparison with the Gyan and Galbaldy Beta.

As it happens, the early 1/144, 1/100, and 1/60 model kits of Char's Zaku released between 1980 and 1981 were generally sized so that its height at antenna was also about 19.2 meters. If that were the case, then the Gelgoog would actually be compatible with the maximum height ceiling previously established by the Zaku II!

Looking at the schematics for the latest Ver.2.0 Master Grade kits, it looks like the antenna height of the MS-06S is just over 8% higher than the head, so a 17.5-meter Zaku II would measure 19 meters at the antenna. For the Gelgoog, it's about 4.8% higher at the crest and about 7.5% higher at antenna. So if the Gelgoog is 19.2 meters at head, then it's about 20.1 at crest and 20.6 at antenna; if it's 19.2 meters at crest, then it's about 18.3 at head and 19.7 at antenna; if it's 19.2 meters at antenna, then it's 17.9 at head and 18.7 at crest. Whew!

Here's a quick comparison graphic similar to yours, using the Ver.2.0 schematics and showing the Gelgoog at all three sizes (head 19.2m, crest 19.2m, antenna 19.2m). In the last scenario, the Gelgoog is looking downright reasonable next to the Zaku II, but see what you think...

-- Mark

I'd say the Crest 19.2m is the most reasonable compromised version.
It would be kinda strange to measure 19.2m to the antenna, just as AmuroNT1 mentioned up there, not all units got the antenna.
So measuring to the crest, which all units have, will be the most reasonable.
And t is still not too tall to fit in the compartments designed for the Zakus.

I did forget about one thing though, the Musai, main carrier for these MSs, carry them side ways, so the height might not be the most important standard, but the width, but the Gelgoog is too wide on all estimates as compared to the Zaku, so I guess that is one of the things that we need to kinda just live with.

[toysdream]

Yeah, it seems like measuring from the crest is the most sensible option. (We can think of this as the "MSV standard", since all the MSV kits were scaled to be 19.2 meters at the crest.)

It's charming to think of the Gelgoog being only about 18 meters at the crown of its head, but I guess by this point we're all used to it being a pretty big machine, so the "19.2m at antenna" scenario does result in a Gelgoog that seems too reasonable compared to the Zaku and Gundam.

I guess we still need some system for figuring out how big the Gelgoog Marine and Jaeger should be, since their crests are much bigger, but that's a whole other issue...


Moving along, I wanted to share some observations about mobile armor sizes. For your reference, here's a historical chart documenting how published claims about the size and weight of all these machines have changed and mutated over time.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... rison.html

As you'll see from the mobile armor section at the end, in most of these cases, the "overall length" specs originally published in Gundam Century eventually ended up being treated as overall heights instead. But otherwise, the numbers only get more bizarre over time! Read and ponder, and we'll dig into the mobile armors in upcoming posts...

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

Yeah, it seems like measuring from the crest is the most sensible option. (We can think of this as the "MSV standard", since all the MSV kits were scaled to be 19.2 meters at the crest.)

It's charming to think of the Gelgoog being only about 18 meters at the crown of its head, but I guess by this point we're all used to it being a pretty big machine, so the "19.2m at antenna" scenario does result in a Gelgoog that seems too reasonable compared to the Zaku and Gundam.

I guess we still need some system for figuring out how big the Gelgoog Marine and Jaeger should be, since their crests are much bigger, but that's a whole other issue...


Moving along, I wanted to share some observations about mobile armor sizes. For your reference, here's a historical chart documenting how published claims about the size and weight of all these machines have changed and mutated over time.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... rison.html

As you'll see from the mobile armor section at the end, in most of these cases, the "overall length" specs originally published in Gundam Century eventually ended up being treated as overall heights instead. But otherwise, the numbers only get more bizarre over time! Read and ponder, and we'll dig into the mobile armors in upcoming posts...

-- Mark

Well, since I was reading a lot of these books recently, for the Columbus stuffing, I noticed the Gundam Archive used the term "overall length" for GM and Ball, which is kinda fun.
The GM, we can understand the 18m is talking about its height, but the Ball? Talking about the length of such unit is perfectly reasonable and actually more suited for such a unit.
Well, the old model kit that comes with a 1/144 and 1/250 Ball gives me the measurement of about 10m(7cm for the 1/144 and 4 cm for the 1/250) in height and 15m(10.5cm for the 1/144 and 6cm for the 1/250, so they are actually pretty consistent) in length, so that's not too conclusive.
The MG is hard to access in my shelf, but it is about 9cm in height and around 15cm in length.
This is a dalong.net pic for comparison(I re-uploaded it because dalong prevents us from deep linking.)
The HGUC version, I got it but I forgot where I placed it, still in the box.

Looking at this site
there's a fun page

The Ball is simply one of the strangest size object, the SP-W03 space pod, which is supposed to be the original civilian pod that was modified to get our RB-79, is hardly 3m in height. The MSV picture spotting a man in the cockpit...
http://space.uwants.com/attachments/201 ... 71yPLI.jpg
They must have strapped a LOT of armour plating to make the RB-79 so BIG!

Uploading pics, I found that I made this a while ago, RX-78-2 vs an F-22 Raptor, might as well show you guys:
http://space.uwants.com/attachments/201 ... 31WzNl.jpg

[Gelgoog Jager]

I found an interesting scene in 0083:

Dom Tropen Height

The Physalis is said to have a head height of 18.5m and an overall height of 19.5m, while the Dom Tropen is supposed to have a height of 18.5m. However this image suggests that compared to the Physalis, it should have a height of over 20m.

[toysdream]

The Physalis is said to have a head height of 18.5m and an overall height of 19.5m, while the Dom Tropen is supposed to have a height of 18.5m. However this image suggests that compared to the Physalis, it should have a height of over 20m.

That's just perspective. It's a low-angle shot, the Dom is in the foreground, so it looks bigger. Of course it's not really bigger than the Xamel!


As for the Ball, the dimensions of the model kits have been pretty consistent over the years. The 1/144 RB-79K kit produced for 08th MS Team was the equivalent of 11m high. The Master Grade kit would be about 9.7m high with the cannon held level, about 14.8m long overall, and the cannon would be about 15.5m long; the main "ball" of its body is about 6m in diameter. The HG-UC kit is similarly sized.

The scale comparisons in the Gundam 0083 model sheets actually suggest an even smaller size, with the main "ball" itself being more like 5m in diameter. But if we exclude that, MythSearcher's estimate of 10m high and 15m long seems to be the model-kit consensus.

As for the SPW-03, Hajime Katoki revisited this about 8 years ago as part of a "Ball Ver.Ka Variations" series published in Gundam Ace. Here's his design, and some shots of the model that accompanied it...

http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/ball_var03b.jpg

To match the apparent size of the pilot, they used a figure from a 1/48 scale aircraft kit, which suggests that the SPW-03 would be exactly half as big as the military Ball. Clearly the Ball would have to be based on the space pod design, then, rather than a direct conversion of existing pods.

-- Mark

[toysdream]

I was going to do mobile armors next, but here's something nifty in the meantime. The "Sunrise Art Works" book on 08th MS Team includes a few scale comparisons, using rough versions of the vehicle line art...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison1.jpg

The Dopp is also used as a scale comparison in the Jet Core Booster and Luggun model sheets. So if we swap in the final line art, and add in these other aircraft, we get something like this...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison2.jpg

The measurements of the Jet Core Booster and Dodai are exactly the same as their respective EX Model kits, so I think these are solid. The apparent length of the Dopp - about 7.2 meters - matches the spec given in Gundam Century, rather than the 9.2 meters cited in the Roman Album books and used as the basis for the EX Model kits.

The overall height of the Apsaras is about 25 meters, which - as we'll see shortly - is very standard for a mobile armor. The latest MS Encyclopedia actually lists 25 meters as the Zakrello's overall height, rather than length, which provides an interesting point of comparison with the Apsaras.

The measurements of the hovertruck here are very similar to those of the Bloodhound, its counterpart from the UC Hard Graph series, which I noted on the comparison graphic.

Lastly, the Luggun here is much bigger than most published specs or the EX Model kit version. Considering this thing was shown towing Zakus in the TV series, I'd say the bigger the better!

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

To match the apparent size of the pilot, they used a figure from a 1/48 scale aircraft kit, which suggests that the SPW-03 would be exactly half as big as the military Ball. Clearly the Ball would have to be based on the space pod design, then, rather than a direct conversion of existing pods.

-- Mark

Than we have the problem of the EFSF getting 1200 SP-W03 for conversion.
Actually, I can take a wild guess, the SP-W03 was used, only for its cockpit, the EFSF manufactured new frame and arms for the RB-79 instead.

[toysdream]

Okay, it's mobile armor time! You may want to consult this handy Specs Comparison chart as we go along.


Let's start with the MA-05 Bygro (or Bigro). This guy's been through a few rounds of revision; Gundam Century listed its overall length at 23.6m, a bunch of early '80s sources put it at 30 meters, and after Entertainment Bible 1 it's generally been listed as overall length 45.5 meters, overall height 23.6 meters (so Gundam Century's length spec ultimately became the height).

Thanks to MS Igloo, we now have very detailed schematics of this guy, as well as of the Big Rang it's attached to. And these schematics reveal something rather unexpected: the Bygro's overall length doesn't include its arms. Which kind of makes sense when you think about it, since these parts are so wildly moveable.

In this graphic, I've dropped in a selection of mobile armor art and schematics, at a scale of 5 pixels to the meter. Over on the right you'll see the Big Rang, which confirms the scale of the Bygro unit.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... arison.jpg

In hindsight, the notion that the arms aren't included shouldn't have come as a surprise. Every toy or model of the Bygro has been sized so that the main body is about 40-45 meters long, including the MS in Action version and the old 1/550 scale model kit. Since I have schematics for all the old model kits, I put together a lineup of the 1/550 mobile armor kits in the same 5-pixels-to-the-meter scale.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... arison.jpg


Moving to the left, we encounter the MAM-07 Grublo. This one has followed a similar evolution; Gundam Century gave it an overall length of 26.1 meters, later sources bumped that up to about 40 meters, and now it's 40.2 meters long with an overall height of 26.1 meters.

The original model sheet actually shows the Grublo next to a silhouetted RX-78 Gundam, so the bottom illustration - an exciting but hard-to-measure three-quarters view - is definitely in scale. The model sheet also includes a side view, but we don't know how big this actually is. In my graphic, I've included one side view scaled to an overall height of 26.1 meters, and another (smaller) one scaled to a body length of 40.2 meters. Which do you think seems like a better match for the three-quarter view?


Lastly, I threw in a side view of the MA-06 Val Walo, whose specs have never been in question and which includes a mobile suit scale comparison. This completes what we might think of as the "Bygro family", but there are lots more mobile armors to come!

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

Actually many of these MA seem to be smaller than I imagined them to be, particualrly the Zakrello and Elmeth.

I also have a few suggestions to add to the Bygro family tree:

-MIP-X1
-Skiure (IIRC it supposedly uses the MPC from a Bygro)
-Jamru Fin (MA mode)
-Shamblo (MA mode)

And going a bit off topic, has there been retcon to the Bygro's production run of 14 units? We seem to keep getting derived units (Val Walo) and variants (Big Rang, Big Ruf) of it, and MSV-R recently added a fourth Grublo unit.

Edit: added Shamblo to the list

[toysdream]

I'll get to the Elmeth next, but in the meantime, I've added the Zakrello and a couple more views of the Val Walo:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... arison.jpg

By the simple expedient of holding the 1/550 scale Grublo kit up in front of my monitor so it's the same size as the three-quarter view, and then turning it sideways, I've determined that the smaller side view (body length 40.2 meters) is exactly the right size. So we can disregard the overall height spec and go with the "overall length" one, bearing in mind that it doesn't include the claw arms.

As for the Zakrello, I've gone with the latest MS Encyclopedia's claim that the old length spec of 25 meters is in fact the height. Most of the other mobile armor specs have undergone a similar transformation, and this makes the Zakrello a much more plausible size compared to the other mobile armors, especially considering its weight.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

Last time I only focused on the rather small MAs, but now I have realized that I didn't notice a larger oddity: the Braw Bro is actually larger than the Big Zam. Even if we disregard the Big Zam legs and the Braw Bro's turrets, the overall body of the Braw Bro is still bigger than the Big Zam's main body.