Size of ships and LARGE objects

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toysdream
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Let's not forget the prologue animation produced for that recent "Battlefield Record U.C. 0081" game, which showed GMs strapped to the underside of the Salamis between the radiator fins! At this point, I think we've seen pretty much every conceivable method for strapping mobile suits onto that ship. :-)

Speaking of the game prologue, there are some comparison shots of Salamis cruisers docked next to Columbus ships starting around the 00:54 mark. The animation uses the Columbus Kai from Gundam 0083, which seems to be a bit more than half as long as the Salamis; right about the 01:30 mark we even see them from directly above, and the Columbus Kai is about 2/3 as long as the Salamis. This seems completely consistent with a 228-meter Salamis and 145-meter Columbus Kai.

Here's a pretty good shot of the Salamis and Columbus Kai hookup, taken at the 01:47 mark:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... enki01.jpg


As for the HLV comparison, this is the same type of HLV that appears in Gundam 0083. The model sheet for that type says it's 101 meters high with booster, and the MS scale comparisons indicate the capsule itself is about 75m high. We already know the dimensions of the HOTOL from that side view, which indicates that it's about 45m high; thus, the shot of a HOTOL crashing into an HLV capsule looks about right.

-- Mark
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AmuroNT1
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

toysdream wrote:At this point, I think we've seen pretty much every conceivable method for strapping mobile suits onto that ship. :-)
"It could grip it by the husk!"

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Yukari: (Which lies and schemes are she talking about? It's hard to keep track of them all...)

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MythSearcher
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
toysdream wrote:I really don't have anything else to add to the Columbus discussion. But when we're figuring out where to put all those mobile suits, we might want to remember that the original series also shows mobile suits being carried inside Magellan and Salamis ships.

During the battles of Solomon and A Baoa Qu, we see both types deploying GMs from cargo compartments on the underside of the ship, and the Magellan also deploys Balls from from the shuttle bay in front of its bridge. According to my notes, we see a Magellan deploying at least three GMs and four Balls in First Gundam episode 35. In episode 42, we see at least four GMs exiting from a Salamis.

It's not clear whether all Magellan and Salamis ships have this capability, although the ships in question don't seem to be modified in any way. But this is the only case in the original series - or in fact, in any animated work that takes place during the One Year War! - where we see any Federation ship aside from the White Base and Gray Phantom carrying mobile suits internally.
In the Gihren's Greed videogames, such ships have been retconned and are a given a different design:

Magellan Standard Type
Magellan MS Carrier Type
Salamis Standard Type
Salamis MS Carrier Type

These MS carrier type ships (or IIRC, Vinson Plan type ships) are most likely based on Fuji class.

Maybe they should have further combined that design with the Salamis MP (Mobile Pod) Carrier Type from MS Igloo and turned it into a Salamis Carrier Type, loaded with 6 Balls on the front rack and 4 GMs on its rear MS hangar, with the possibility fo strapping 3 more on the bottom of the ship. At that point its firepower would have probably made it unsuitable for frontline combat though, but at the same time it would mean that less ships would have to be modified at all, leaving mroe standard class Salamis available for frontline combat.
This reminds me of the Salamis entry from Gundam Officials.
The Salamis is said to be designed for numerous purposes, which have different types, including regular cannon ship, AA type, Reconnaissance type, etc. and the type from the Vinson Plan is simply dubbed the Carrier Cruiser type(航空巡洋型).
The fun thing is, Minakawa specifically stated that one cannot tell the difference of these types by only looking at their appearance, they all look the same. :)
toysdream wrote:At this point, I think we've seen pretty much every conceivable method for strapping mobile suits onto that ship. :-)
Would love to see a GM peeking out from behind the bridge, as if using it for protection in a gun fight.
(the captain will not be pleased.)
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

I had forgotten about the Salamis from 0081. From what can be seen it has racks for 8 MS and 3 Balls underneath it, although it also seems to be provding propellant to at least two more Balls and a GM (the later seems badly damaged, so maybe it's only being held in place).

It also found a minor variant of the MS Igloo Salamis:

Salamis MP Carrier Type

Unlike the original model, this one actually keeps its two forward side main guns. In a sense I suppose that this version is the most direct predecessor to the Salamis Kai from Zeta, at least as far as the front half of the ship is concerned. In fact, this makes me wonder why the other version is lacking those main guns in the first place:

For some context, the original or early version is first seen before the Battle of Odessa, pursuing some Papuas until its Ball team runs into the Jotunheim's Zudahs. A second ship of this type is seen in the background after deploying a group of 6 Balls which begin attacking the forces that retreated from Odessa.

The second type equipped with forward side main guns, which we could call the late version, is seen patrolling the moon right after the firing of Solar Ray.

Regarding their physical differences, while both types lack the top main gun, the late version keeps its forward side main guns, but lacks te six-tube missile launchers normally installed right behind those guns. The original version not only lacks both those guns and the missile launchers, but the "plates" where those are normally located on each side of the ship are gray colored instead of light blue.

So, what if the gray plates are actually hatches for a crude hangar for storing additional Balls? Given the time frame in which they are around, before GMs begin deployment and Balls were the closest they had to MS of their own, I do think this could be the case. Also, it would explain why the main guns had to be removed and what the released internal space was used for, and from the looks of it, a ball would be able to fir in through such hatch. Finally, it would also happen to be on the same area where the Salamis Kai from Zeta has the MS hangar located at.

Another detail to mention is that in the animation we always see that the Balls are not strapped right next to each other, but rather they keep an empty rack between them, which indeed means that we never see any of these ships loaded with more than 3 Balls at a time, despite having enough racks for 6 Balls. However, the MS Igloo profile has in its second 360° view a Salamis with 3 Balls strapped right next to each other on consecutive racks, proving that this is indeed possible.
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AmuroNT1
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

http://s51.photobucket.com/albums/f356/ ... dam/snaps/

I dunno how useful this will be, but I went into the unit galleries for a few PS2-era Gundam games and took snapshots of the various battleships in side profile. These aren't scaled accurately (only scaled so I could get all of them in frame - looking at you, Magellan!), but perhaps they can be used for a size chart.

I do apologize for not having any more, but the simple fact is, most of these games just plain don't include ships or vehicles in their gallery modes. I'm lucky Gundam vs Zeta Gundam has such an extensive collection, or I'd be up a creek. I also apologize for any imperfections or artifacts that might be found; I wasn't quite as precise cleaning these up as I'd like.

If anyone's wondering, the First and Zeta ships come from Gundam vs Zeta, while the 0083 and Char's Counterattack ships are from Another Century's Episode. What really surprised me was the Rewoola wasn't included, but a quick look through the ACE3 Perfect Guide confirms this.

BTW, I could have grabbed a few things from Gundam X (and Seed, if I opened up Generation of CE), but I figured since this discussion deals primarily with early UC it'd be unnecessary. It's too bad ACE1 doesn't have a unit viewer, because it's to my knowledge one of if not THE only game to include a 3D (but heavily downscaled) model of Libra!
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Regarding the Pazock, I found a picture showing the hatch must likely used for loading larger items such as MAs:

Pazock Open Hatch

I also came to realize that the Pazock's front container must have a larger capacity than the rear one due to the engine block:

Pazock Engine Block

As a side note, if all the plates in these images are of the same size, the Papua in the background of the first picture would seem to be almost half as long as a Pazock.
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Regarding the Pazock, I found a picture showing the hatch must likely used for loading larger items such as MAs:

Pazock Open Hatch

I also came to realize that the Pazock's front container must have a larger capacity than the rear one due to the engine block:

Pazock Engine Block

As a side note, if all the plates in these images are of the same size, the Papua in the background of the first picture would seem to be almost half as long as a Pazock.
I must say that I share the same view the engine block must take up a lot of space, but the other side might also have the bridge and living quarters that is also possibly taking up a lot of space as well.
So it may not be conclusive that both wings have different cap.
toysdream
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Like the Papua, it's possible that the circular hatches in the side of Pazock were originally supposed to line up with those on the side of the Musai's mobile suit hangar. In that case, the Pazock would also need to be very small. (In the Gundam 0083 ship comparison chart, the Musai's hatches are spaced about 10.5 meters apart; if the Pazock's hatches had the same spacing, it would only be about 130 meters long.)

Setting that aside, the model sheets and animation from Gundam 0083 seem to support the larger size indicated by the specs (overall length 260 meters). But how large is that, really?

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... _papua.jpg

Here are the Gundam 0083 model sheets for the Pazock and Papua, with mobile suit silhouettes for scale. You can see that the circular hatches are just about as high as a mobile suit, but you'll also note that they're a bit higher than the container they're attached to, which isn't quite high enough for a standing mobile suit. I also note that the width of the container is about five times a mobile suit's height - call it 90 meters.

And here's a still from the last episode of Gundam 0083, where we actually see mobile suits being loaded into the Axis Advance Fleet's Pazocks...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... sfleet.jpg

This is exactly to the scale indicated by the model sheet. These Zakus are the same height as the hatches, and the overall container width is about 5.25 times the height of a Zaku. Note that they're being reeled in sideways, which further supports the notion that they can't stand up inside the container. Note also that we're seeing Zakus reeled in to the back set of hatches, which indicates that however much space the engines take up, there's still room for at least one Zaku on each side!

Incidentally, this also suggests a maximum mobile suit capacity for the Pazock. Eight rows of five would give us 40 mobile suits; if we give them a bit more headroom and limit it to four per row, and knock out a couple of spaces in the back row to make room for the engines, we get 30. That's only half the figure that Gundam Officials claims, but still twice the 16-mobile suit capacity cited in Entertainment Bible 3, the only previous source to give a precise figure.

The old Roman Album series, which provided (and/or blighted) us with so many other vehicle specs, doesn't have much to say about the Pazock. No specs, and no confirmation it can even carry mobile suits at all; instead, it says that the rear container is used to carry "weapons and machines" while the forward one is for food and personnel.

-- Mark
toysdream
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Oh, and since we were just talking about the Fuji class from Gundam The Ride, I've added the Suruga and the Nelson (from the MSV-R series) to my Salamis and Columbus comparison...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison1.jpg

And here it is with markup:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... rison2.jpg

Allowing for the slight shift in perspective, it seems like the Suruga would be exactly the same length as the Salamis Kai from Gundam 0083, and for basically the same reason - it's been extended by adding an extra section behind the bridge, whose bulk is then compensated for by adding four booster rockets around the main engine. We could almost think of these two types as siblings, adapted in similar ways (and extended to a similar 300-meter length) for very different functions.

And in that case, looking at them all side by side, the Salamis Kai from Zeta Gundam starts to seem like an attempt to combine the functions of both these types without actually making the original Salamis hull any bigger!

Speaking of which, the second (marked-up) graphic also includes a side view of the Salamis Kai from the Zeta Gundam ship comparison, with a Gundam for scale. It seems like you could just barely fit a standing mobile suit into a 228-meter Salamis Kai...

-- Mark
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

toysdream wrote:The old Roman Album series, which provided (and/or blighted) us with so many other vehicle specs, doesn't have much to say about the Pazock. No specs, and no confirmation it can even carry mobile suits at all; instead, it says that the rear container is used to carry "weapons and machines" while the forward one is for food and personnel.

-- Mark
I just remembered something interesting about the Pazock:

In the Ecole du Ciel manga, the Pazock that serves as the flagship for Marie's pirates is believed to have been sunk at one point after it rams a federation ship. However, we soon find out that the ship basically ejected the rear container, which happens to have both the bridge and engine block, and is now basically serving as a escape module.

Given the configuration of the Pazock, and considering that the Roman Album is right about the common practice on the cargo carried on each container, it does sound possible that such feature was considered for the design from the beginning as all it would take for it to work is to be able to detach the rear container from the section that connects it to the rest of the ship.

It would allow a ship to abandon its front container and the middle section (which I suppose is the crews quarters), in order to provide the rear container (which is carrying all the important military cargo) a better chance to get away. The food and other basic supplies could be considered discardable in an emergency situation, and the personnel in the front container and middle section would probably be evacuated to the rear container prior to detaching it from the rest of the ship.

If this was indeed the case for all ships of the Pazock class, I think it would be a smart design choice, as well as a clever practice for giving the more important cargo a higher survival probability.
toysdream
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Just noticed a couple of shots from the Gihren's Greed cut-scene animation that give us some hints as to the sizes of some minor Zeon vessels. First, here's a mobile suit next to a Jicco assault boat...

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/jicco.jpg

The Jicco is almost four times as long as the Zaku, or roughly 70 meters.

Gihren's Greed also gives us a rare shot of a Papua resupplying a couple of Musai cruisers:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/papua1.jpg

This actually allows us to compare the height of the Papua against that of the Musai, which seems to be pretty consistent across various depictions, and thus figure out how big the Papua itself would be. Based on the comparative shots here and in episode 3 of First Gundam, it looks to be in the neighborhood of 120-140 meters long. Behold:

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... arison.jpg

As a happy side effect, if the Papua is 130 meters long, then its conveyor pipes line up perfectly with the hatches on the sides of the Musai's hangar. Obviously it's animated as being much bigger in Gundam 0083, but this scaling seems about right for its appearances elsewhere.

-- Mark
Joe50000
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

Does anyone happen to have an image of the salamis bridge interior? Only thing I could find on the net was a dead image from an archived old website. Thanks.

-Joe
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Re: Size of ships and LARGE objects

http://space.uwants.com/attachments/201 ... 016plS.jpg
http://truth.bahamut.com.tw/s01/201308/ ... a0c98a.JPG
(the first one's service provider is known to have errors, the second is more stable, but reduces file resolution some times.)
Updated the Really Big things. Or I should say, Bigg"er" things.
Added Celestial Being, 15km, not really big, ELS about 3000km, or 3Mm, and THE Moon, about 3474km.

A side note, the ship comparison image is about 5km across, so most things there are not going to show on this.

Also updating first post.
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