Katoki and his influence?

[Xenosynth]

Yeah, I was going to say, to say he has NO original design scheme to himself is kinda stretching the truth a bit. I may be a fan of Katoki and his redesigns but he did do a lot of original designs on his own. A lot of the OZ suits he designed are pretty fantastic and don't really seem to draw on a lot of other sources, and I really don't think the EVA-01 and GM were the inspiration for the Unicorn mode on the RX-0 >.>

I mean, I don't think the guy has as many original design credits as Okawara, but I also don't think he's simply just a refiner (Even if he made some designs I didn't like of Okawara's jump up to my favorite MS, looking at you GFF GM Sniper Custom). But yes. Also I meant to ask, does Izubuchi work on anymore bandai things? His 0080 designs were pretty nice too, so I am surprised I never hear much about him.

[Tangerine]

Okay, you know what, this is starting to get a little bothersome. Anybody who makes the claim that Katoki-

lacks the ability to draw anything original

Is either unaware of the entirety of his body of work, or is simply refusing to acknowledge it. While it's true that over the course of the past decade the majority of his work for Gundam has been in redesigning old suits, all one needs to do is look back beyond Unicorn in order to realize that he has in fact produced some very original designs, mostly during 90's when he collaborated on shows like G Gundam, Wing and 08th MS Team.

My bad, I'm unaware of it. I liked Tallgeese, it's fresh and totally not-Okawara-ish. However, at least to my knowledge - for somebody who worked in this industry for quite a time he rarely done it. Could it be that it's his job description that made it so, for him mainly to refine things?

[domtropen]

S Gundam & EX-S Gundam by Katoki looks fine to me.

[MythSearcher]

My bad, I'm unaware of it. I liked Tallgeese, it's fresh and totally not-Okawara-ish. However, at least to my knowledge - for somebody who worked in this industry for quite a time he rarely done it. Could it be that it's his job description that made it so, for him mainly to refine things?

He was basically assigned by Bandai to do the GFF series, then when that series got kinda terminated, he was moved to work on MG and Ka composites and stuff, that mostly are redesigning.
So, like I said earlier, he can design things, but he got his limits, his designs are usually not giving strong enough impression to audiences(strong enough by Bandai standards) but his redesigns are really good in that.
So, I guess both.
Oh, I missed a possible option, he doesn't like designing new stuff, and offered to do redesigns instead of doing new ones.

Katoki is a strange person, he started designing stuff back in the old days, with old school style designing(pencil and paper), yet he can produce computer like accuracy drawings and his designs are so modernized, that you'd think he is one of the younger designers.
But what tick people off, might be the repeated designs that he had done with all his redesigns, all the GMs became look a likes, combination of cubes and squares, and even the Zakus got more edges than ever.

I'd like to point out a similar but more skillful artist group, Ark Performance, Katoki make mecha look realistic and cool in his Katoki pose, but AP make mecha look realistic and cool in almost any pose in their comic.
Other designers are also trying to get a different pose than Katoki nowadays, you'd likely come across linearts that are signed "ebi", and he uses a 2 line perspective method to draw MSs, so they do look more 3D than Katoki's, ebi is shrimp in Japanese, and the signature Kanetake Ebikawa uses.
Beecraft had also done quite a lot of good art work before, like in MS Encyclopedia 2003, but I don't see his name this often recently.

[J-Lead]

All Katoki's Gundam designs are pretty much redesigns of existing units, S Gundam might seem original, but it is basically a more detailed mechanized version of ZZ.

To this day, I still have no idea where this opinion comes from. It's got a similar design philosophy due to it's core block system, perhaps, so I agree that it's not entirely original, but I always thought the overall detail made it a lot closer to the Zeta than the ZZ.

V2 might be one of the more original ones he did, but then again, it is quite obviously influenced greatly from V Gundam,

Didn't Katoki design the V Gundam as well?

And to be honest, try to think of any Katoki's designs in you head, without looking at any references(yes, don't turn and look at your model shelf, I'm talking about you there)
Can you really recall all the small details?
Can you even give the minor silhouete of it?

I mostly can, but I've been told that I have an eye for that sort of thing. I've got friends that can't tell the difference between Iron Man suits in either the movies or the comics unless they feature a complete change in color palette, whereas I can pick them out in an instant, name them, remember where all of it's hatches and weapons are located are located and how they open up.

Granted, most Katoki designs LOOK cool, but they kinda stop at that.
They don't stick to your memory like little parasites that you can't get rid of.
They don't really give really strong impressions.

They do for me, but like I said, I'm good at remembering the little details. However, I don't think Katoki is the best at what he does, especially not redrawing existing MS in modern standards (Hiroyuki Kitazume is my pick for that, but admittedly he's definitely inspired by Katoki's style.) I always thought, for example, that Kenji Fujioka was somewhat more talented than Katoki.

Just my perspective on the matter.

But yes. Also I meant to ask, does Izubuchi work on anymore bandai things? His 0080 designs were pretty nice too, so I am surprised I never hear much about him.

Eh, I sometimes kind of get the feeling that he isn't what he used to be...

[Kuruni]

Checking Japanese Wikipedia, the last anime with Izubuchi as mecha designer is Gasaraki (1998).

HOWEVER, he's also the character designer in some Tokusatsu titles, such as redesign King Dark from Decade movie. The last one on this department is Gobuster.

On Katoki's design, my favourite is still Wildwurger.

[MythSearcher]

To this day, I still have no idea where this opinion comes from. It's got a similar design philosophy due to it's core block system, perhaps, so I agree that it's not entirely original, but I always thought the overall detail made it a lot closer to the Zeta than the ZZ.

Well, the backpack cannons?
Yes, the details are more like Zeta, but the overall concept is a refined ZZ.
What I am talking about here is not the details, but the overall impression and appearance.
Katoki usually can capture the concept of the mecha that's eyecatching, and transform the details so that it is completely different.

Didn't Katoki design the V Gundam as well?

Yes, sorry about that, didn't think of this thoroughly.
The problem might be, V is not really that popular, V2 is.
So he might have redesigned his own design to make it better.

I mostly can, but I've been told that I have an eye for that sort of thing. I've got friends that can't tell the difference between Iron Man suits in either the movies or the comics unless they feature a complete change in color palette, whereas I can pick them out in an instant, name them, remember where all of it's hatches and weapons are located are located and how they open up.

They do for me, but like I said, I'm good at remembering the little details. However, I don't think Katoki is the best at what he does, especially not redrawing existing MS in modern standards (Hiroyuki Kitazume is my pick for that, but admittedly he's definitely inspired by Katoki's style.) I always thought, for example, that Kenji Fujioka was somewhat more talented than Katoki.

I can kinda also do this, what I said up there is a more objective view I got from a few art major and designers friends.
Granted, I can tell you most MS in Gundam by just one look, which series it is from and some of them even the model number.
But I do have difficulty when it's Katoki's designs only in silhouette, so you have no colour, no details and only the outline.
Okawara's design are a bit different though, even if you only get the silhouette, you can still kinda tell which one it is, unless its some really minor detail change version in the MSV series.

But yes. Also I meant to ask, does Izubuchi work on anymore bandai things? His 0080 designs were pretty nice too, so I am surprised I never hear much about him.

I don't think so, and he didn't do much Gundam design works as well.
He did 0080 and CCA, and clothing design in W(along with using 0080 gun designs) than he did a lot of work in Patlabor(really good designs).
He is also the supervisor of MS Igloo.
But after Gasaraki, he mainly switched to doing supervisor and director work, he did some designs in WXIII, but that's it.(I guess Oshii Mamoru is not really in good terms with him anyway, in 2004, he even said Izubuchi is a mecha designer that got no sense of mecha.)
One of his more well known (to the general public) work, the HRP-2, looked a lot like Patlabor.

And his more recent work?
Director of Space Battleship Yamato 2199.
It's like he moved past his life as a mere designer, and is currently working on what requires an overview of the whole project.

[Kuruni]

But I do have difficulty when it's Katoki's designs only in silhouette, so you have no colour, no details and only the outline.

Actually, if I made a certain silhouette and even give you a choice, can you tell me if it's RX-78-1, RX-78-2 or RX-78-3?

Don't try to make thing unneccesary hard. It's like certain gag manga where a man try to prove he's far smarter than monkey by doing something much harder - standing on a stick and use a box to smack that hanging banana down. It's harder, but doesn't prove anything but very questionable intelligent.

[nacho-wan]

Other designers are also trying to get a different pose than Katoki nowadays, you'd likely come across linearts that are signed "ebi", and he uses a 2 line perspective method to draw MSs, so they do look more 3D than Katoki's, ebi is shrimp in Japanese, and the signature Kanetake Ebikawa uses.
Beecraft had also done quite a lot of good art work before, like in MS Encyclopedia 2003, but I don't see his name this often recently.

Ebikawara is bad example IMHO. I think he hit his roof in Double OO. His designs are very simplistic, which shows a lot in AGE. Aside from Exia and 00 Raiser and maybe AGE FX his designs are pretty limited (remember the other three from 00S1 were done by a different artist, Takayuki Yanase -who also did the amazing Frame Arms model kit from Kotobukiya).

As for the overall thread, this is pointless because at the end is just a matter of personal preference. Some people have a bias vrs Katoki, some like me like his method. I do agree that I would like him doing something completedly original and hopefully not Gundam related like the awesome desgins from SRW: Huckebein, the R series, Wildwurger and such.

[Erisie]

Now that we're in the topic of Katoki, who is the designer of the Real Grade line? At first it seems it was him, but I don't think so.

[J-Lead]

Now that we're in the topic of Katoki, who is the designer of the Real Grade line? At first it seems it was him, but I don't think so.

Pretty sure it's Hiroyuki Kitazume, but don't quote me on that.

[Mythgarr]

Other designers are also trying to get a different pose than Katoki nowadays, you'd likely come across linearts that are signed "ebi", and he uses a 2 line perspective method to draw MSs, so they do look more 3D than Katoki's, ebi is shrimp in Japanese, and the signature Kanetake Ebikawa uses.
Beecraft had also done quite a lot of good art work before, like in MS Encyclopedia 2003, but I don't see his name this often recently.

Ebikawara is bad example IMHO. I think he hit his roof in Double OO. His designs are very simplistic, which shows a lot in AGE. Aside from Exia and 00 Raiser and maybe AGE FX his designs are pretty limited (remember the other three from 00S1 were done by a different artist, Takayuki Yanase -who also did the amazing Frame Arms model kit from Kotobukiya).

Could it be that in AGE, Ebikawa was told to do "simple designs" ?
Despite that, the HG AGE kits are not to be laughed at: easy snap fits, tons of changeability between AGE-1, AGE-2, and AGE-3, Adele, G-Exes, G-Bouncer limbs, and top notch articulations (even AGE-3 Fortress!)

But yeah, the MSVs could make you scratch your head (the lobster feet of AGE-2 Double Blades) or go WHOAA, COOL (AGE-3 Ragna) or make you want a kit right away (The Gundam, AGE-1 Razor, AGE-3 Orbital designer color, Adele Stark)

[Kuruni]

Despite that, the HG AGE kits are not to be laughed at: easy snap fits, tons of changeability between AGE-1, AGE-2, and AGE-3, Adele, G-Exes, G-Bouncer limbs, and top notch articulations (even AGE-3 Fortress!)

Can't argue here. Except that the best thing is how they're compatible with Beginning...or rather the second best. The best is they're compatible with magical girls.

[Derringer]

He was basically assigned by Bandai to do the GFF series, then when that series got kinda terminated, he was moved to work on MG and Ka composites and stuff, that mostly are redesigning.
So, like I said earlier, he can design things, but he got his limits, his designs are usually not giving strong enough impression to audiences(strong enough by Bandai standards) but his redesigns are really good in that.
So, I guess both.
Oh, I missed a possible option, he doesn't like designing new stuff, and offered to do redesigns instead of doing new ones.

Katoki is the one that made the convoluted Zeta Gundam transformation a reality without part swapping in the MG kit which was released in 1996. This preceded the GFF line in the Bandai Collectors department by many years. In addition Katoki's illustrations have been the basis for the vast majority of the MG line and also the HGUC line and he is also heavily involved in their engineering. He's not just a guy, he's THE guy that's made the HGUC and MG lines what it is today.

[Tangerine]

Katoki is the one that made the convoluted Zeta Gundam transformation a reality without part swapping in the MG kit which was released in 1996. This preceded the GFF line in the Bandai Collectors department by many years. In addition Katoki's illustrations have been the basis for the vast majority of the MG line and also the HGUC line and he is also heavily involved in their engineering. He's not just a guy, he's THE guy that's made the HGUC and MG lines what it is today.

Yep, people who shouted Okawara over Katoki should know that his drawing despite all its glory, simply doesn't work. Katoki's re-design may be butchered as being overly simplified but he's just making a working real world design. Okawara has the idea. Katoki make it into reality.

I got some old plamo based on old design, likely to be Okawara's it's really hard even to stand up properly since the skirt and the shoulder is back heavy. the thing flip easily. it doesn't happen to newer plamo. Excluding the quality improvement, the center of gravity seems to be better too.

[Mythgarr]

Katoki is the one that made the convoluted Zeta Gundam transformation a reality without part swapping in the MG kit which was released in 1996. This preceded the GFF line in the Bandai Collectors department by many years. In addition Katoki's illustrations have been the basis for the vast majority of the MG line and also the HGUC line and he is also heavily involved in their engineering. He's not just a guy, he's THE guy that's made the HGUC and MG lines what it is today.

Yep, people who shouted Okawara over Katoki should know that his drawing despite all its glory, simply doesn't work. Katoki's re-design may be butchered as being overly simplified but he's just making a working real world design. Okawara has the idea. Katoki make it into reality.

I got some old plamo based on old design, likely to be Okawara's it's really hard even to stand up properly since the skirt and the shoulder is back heavy. the thing flip easily. it doesn't happen to newer plamo. Excluding the quality improvement, the center of gravity seems to be better too.

The key being OLD

Also the 1/144 lines from G, Wing, and X begs a difference. They are, mostly, I think, of Okawara designs and all of them stand nicely, even the likes of Ashtaron and X Divider.

[Dendrobium Stamen]

I think Okawara is due some credit here, particularly regarding the practicality of his designs...

I seem to recall in an interview when SEED was on air - so we're going back to the heady days of 2003 - Okawara being asked if he'd considered the requirements of Gunpla when designing Freedom and Justice (Providence having not been revealed at this stage; we really are going back!). His answer was that yes, he had, and had in fact made paper-based models of the designs, to ensure their weight distribution did allow them to balance. Will have to try and dig out the relevant Gunota Headlines article from the internet's dark archives for this one (speaking of, bloody hell, how long ago did Gunota shut down?).

This process is also seen in the Gundam Sousei manga, the admittedly-exaggerated tale of how Tomino and his hot-blooded Sunrise Studios team created Mobile Suit Gundam in the first place; Okawara is seen crafting a wooden model of the Zaku as a practical demonstration.

So - Katoki definitely creates more immediately-practical designs, smoother and sleeker and more like a real military machine, but Okawara's designs aren't quite as out there as we as a fandom sometimes suggest...

[Xenosynth]

I think with Okawara, I have a bit more respect for his painted artwork over animation cel artwork. Having starting collecting official MS images, I will say that his artwork that I believe is also colored by him for things like MSV are very nice, and have a lot more feelings of power and depth to me than the anime cel'd designs. While I still prefer Katoki in general, I do have a new appreciation for Okawara's artistic talents when I see them without the limitations of anime cels.

[PowerdGNFlag]

I think Okawara is due some credit here, particularly regarding the practicality of his designs...

I seem to recall in an interview when SEED was on air - so we're going back to the heady days of 2003 - Okawara being asked if he'd considered the requirements of Gunpla when designing Freedom and Justice (Providence having not been revealed at this stage; we really are going back!). His answer was that yes, he had, and had in fact made paper-based models of the designs, to ensure their weight distribution did allow them to balance. Will have to try and dig out the relevant Gunota Headlines article from the internet's dark archives for this one (speaking of, bloody hell, how long ago did Gunota shut down?).

Found it: http://aeug.blogspot.com/2003_10_01_arc ... 1334631739

[Erisie]

Now that we're in the topic of Katoki, who is the designer of the Real Grade line? At first it seems it was him, but I don't think so.

Pretty sure it's Hiroyuki Kitazume, but don't quote me on that.

Kitazume is a manga artist. He hasn't worked on anything for Bandai, not even box art illustrations.

Just to be clear, I haven't found any source about who is the RG's designer. This is an educated guess.

Lineart for the Master Grade RX-78 (1.0), 1995. Credited to Junichi Akutsu (BEE-CRAFT).
CAD render of the RG RX-78, 2010.

The shape of the panel in the upper thigh is quite distinguishable. Neither Okawara nor Katoki have panels there. It seems to me that Akutsu is the man behind the RG's design line. Apart from his cleanup credits in the early Master Grades and their exploded mechanical illustrations (credit in the bottom left corner), he's done mechanical design for SEED (the first five GAT-X Gundams, the fist Astrays) and box art illustrations for a number of HGUCs (credit in the upper right corner).