Heavy Mobile Suits

[Amadi Akintunde]

I'm personally still dumbfounded as to how most mobile suits weigh less than say, an M1 Abrams.

[J-Lead]

I imagine Mobile suits, in comparison to an Abrams, are much less armor and much more moving parts. The armor on a mobile suit is likely much thinner, and the armor material used on the Gundam and GM is armored with lunar titanium and titanium ceramic composite respectively, both of which are probably lighter than whatever metal the M1 Abrams uses (likely titanium.) In addition, consider that the F-15 Eagle is longer than the average mobile suit height, yet only weighs usually between 28-40 tons fully loaded (depending on the model in question.) Despite the larger size, the metal surrounding the interior is substantially thinner than what is used on a tank or mobile suit. The RX-78-2 weighs 43.4 tons empty, and 60 tons fully loaded. I'd actually wager that's not too out of the rhelm of possibility.

So basically I'm guessing it's a combination of lighter fictional armor materials and just less armor in general.

[Amadi Akintunde]

Chobham, RH armor, Depleted Uranium strike plates, and Kevlar mesh is what the M1's armoring is made up of, actually. Titanium has been largely phased out of military vehicle development due to how difficult it is to work with.

It's all about composites and whatnot, now. Much more reliable.

EDIT: I didn't really take the mobile suit being mostly moving parts, covering and minimal armoring into account. Guess I need to make some changes, again.

[domtropen]

Isn't the beam bazooka model that is used by Rick Dom etc. contains its own generator though? Adding more generator to increase power output old tech style may add quite a bit of weight ala Zaku sniper [minus cooling system]?

So we can say tech advancement from production Gelgoog were applied to Dom series and other MSs as much as possible, including even those in the production line?

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

The Zaku II Kai merely being an upgraded Zaku II and not a whole new MS would also help explain just why it has such an imbalanced thruster and fuel ratio; greatly increased thruster power, but nothing to offset said increase, thus cutting its operating time roughly in half as opposed to the Rick Dom II and Gelgoog Jager, which got more powerful thrusters and more verniers, but also large propellent tanks for additional fuel.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I don't recall reading anything about a relationship between the Zaku II F2 and the Gouf Custom, but I'll double-check. In the meantime, here's what the MG Gouf Custom kit manual says:

Mass production of the 07B series took place mainly at Granada and the California Base, using updated J type production lines, but it is said that the B3 type made heavy use of parts from machines that were redesigned and produced in the Zeon homeland for use as Flight Type prototypes. Thus its mobility and maneuverability were distinctly superior to the pure California Base version, and it was often referred to as the "Gouf Custom."

So the Gouf Custom doesn't reflect either the Granada or the California Base style - it's based on parts made in the Zeon homeland. (Which further suggests that it might be designed by Zimmad rather than Zeonic, which would make sense given the Sakhalin family's apparent involvement with the Rick Dom.)

-- Mark

It makes sense that the MS-07B-3 wasn't built in Granada if we consider the rather low number of units that we actually see. On the other hand, I would find more interesting the idea of Zimmad getting involved in the development of the MS-07H8. I think it makes sense that by incorporating what they learned from the Dom's development, they succeded in producing the most succesful incarnation of the Gouf Flight Type.

I see what you mean about the Sakhalin family being involved with Zimmad, but if we add the Apsalus to the mix, wouldn't that also indicate a link with MIP?

Isn't the beam bazooka model that is used by Rick Dom etc. contains its own generator though? Adding more generator to increase power output old tech style may add quite a bit of weight ala Zaku sniper [minus cooling system]?

So we can say tech advancement from production Gelgoog were applied to Dom series and other MSs as much as possible, including even those in the production line?

In a discussion about the 0081 someone pointed out that the director said that only the MS-09RS can use beam bazookas. I atributed this to a possibly higher generator, since I imagined that such rather powerful weapon might actually need to draw power from its own generator and the from the MS. But it certainly could be for other reasons.

The Zaku II Kai merely being an upgraded Zaku II and not a whole new MS would also help explain just why it has such an imbalanced thruster and fuel ratio; greatly increased thruster power, but nothing to offset said increase, thus cutting its operating time roughly in half as opposed to the Rick Dom II and Gelgoog Jager, which got more powerful thrusters and more verniers, but also large propellent tanks for additional fuel.

I think that Zeon considered that the operational time reduction was an acceptable price to pay for for increasing the performance of one of their older and most numerous MS models to the level of a Gelgoog (minus beam weapons).

Finally, I just wanted to say that I usually considered that a heavy MS was a unit that was given additional armor to disregard the need for a shield.

[toysdream]

On mobile suit weight: Yep, they're absurdly light. It's always funny to take one of those 1/144 scale World Tank Museum replicas and put it next to a mobile suit's foot, then remind yourself that they weigh about the same.

To their credit, though, the UC shows are generally pretty good about showing that mobile suits float in water. They should - their average density is less than that of the human body!

Isn't the beam bazooka model that is used by Rick Dom etc. contains its own generator though? Adding more generator to increase power output old tech style may add quite a bit of weight ala Zaku sniper [minus cooling system]?

It's unclear. The MG Rick Dom kit manual says that the beam bazooka is "a type of beam weapon that doesn't receive its energy supply from the machine itself", but the Char's Rick Dom kit manual claims that it has an upgraded generator and energy supply connectors in its arms so that it can drive the beam bazooka.

These claims aren't mutually exclusive, though. Since the beam bazooka takes a long time to charge, the designers may have tried to speed things up by upgrading the Rick Dom so that it can contribute directly to its energy supply.

So we can say tech advancement from production Gelgoog were applied to Dom series and other MSs as much as possible, including even those in the production line?

Maybe so, although that's supposed to be the explanation for the Rick Dom II and the other United Maintenance Plan types. I don't think it's ever been claimed that this feedback was incorporated into the production run of the regular Rick Dom.

On the other hand, I would find more interesting the idea of Zimmad getting involved in the development of the MS-07H8. I think it makes sense that by incorporating what they learned from the Dom's development, they succeded in producing the most succesful incarnation of the Gouf Flight Type.

Not to mention that the Dom is often said to incorporate feedback from the Gouf Flight Type, and that Zimmad is already using modified Goufs like the C-5 type to gather test data for the Dom. (According to the MSV Collection File, Zimmad was actually given the right to build Goufs under license, because aspects of its canceled YMS-08 were incorporated in the final Gouf design.)

I see what you mean about the Sakhalin family being involved with Zimmad, but if we add the Apsalus to the mix, wouldn't that also indicate a link with MIP?

Depends whether MIP was involved with the Apsaras, doesn't it? I don't think we have any particular reason to think it was...

Finally, I just wanted to say that I usually considered that a heavy MS was a unit that was given additional armor to disregard the need for a shield.

Possible, but the lack of a shield could be a side-effect rather than part of the definition. The most obvious possibility is that they're called "heavy mobile suits" just because they weigh a lot.


Speaking of weight, here's a little chart with some base weight comparisons. I've tried to group these so that we're comparing machines at roughly similar "tech levels". For example, the base weight for the Zaku Desert Type was recently revised down from 61.3 tons to 48.8 tons, and we have two sets of specs for the MS-06R-2 - one which is comparable to classic Zakus, and another which puts it in the same ballpark as the Dom and early Gelgoogs.

The leftmost column includes the Dowadge and the Galbaldy Beta, both of which use "modern" (i.e. post-One Year War) generators and are made principally from lightweight titanium alloy. I note that the Galbaldy Beta's base weight is about 83 percent that of the Dowadge, which is roughly the same as the ratio between the Gyan and the Dom, so it seems like the same proportions hold regardless of tech level.

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MACHINE          BASE WEIGHT COMPARISON

MS-05B                         | 50.3t |
                               |       |
MS-06F                         | 58.1t |
MS-06D                 | 48.8t | 61.3t |
MS-06R-1A              |       | 56.8t |
MS-06R-2               | 49.5t | 58.2t |
RMS-106        | 38.7t |
                       |       |
YMS-09                 | 60.8t |
YMS-09D                | 65.1t |
MS-09K                 | 68.0t |
MS-09                  | 62.6t |
MS-09R         | 43.8t | 62.6t |
MS-09R-2       | 45.6t |       |
               |       |       |
MS-14B         |       | 53.5t |
MS-14C         | 44.5t | 55.8t |
MS-14A         | 42.1t |       |
               |       |       |
YMS-15         |       | 52.7t |
               |       |
MS-17          | 41.7t |
RMS-117        | 36.3t |

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

So we can say tech advancement from production Gelgoog were applied to Dom series and other MSs as much as possible, including even those in the production line?

Maybe so, although that's supposed to be the explanation for the Rick Dom II and the other United Maintenance Plan types. I don't think it's ever been claimed that this feedback was incorporated into the production run of the regular Rick Dom.

How about the UMP (United Maintenance Plan) compliant Doms and Rick Dom from 08th MS team, which we discussed on this thread?

The idea that all OYW Zeon MS might have been built with SHSA (Super Hard Steel Alloy), including the UMP machines from 0080, got me thinking on how much does armor actually matters on the weight of the MS. While it might have not mattered much during the OYW, it supposedly became a mjor issue during the Grys War and the First Neo Zeon WAr that followed right after. Probably the best example of the material actually affecting the weight of the MS is the Rick Dias, which was the first Ms built with Gundarium Gamma alloy. After it is introduced, we start seeing that most later MS also use the alloy. These include not only prototypes and limited production units, but also mass production models, something that becomes the trend for Axis/Neo Zeon, or so are we told. However after comparing weight, there appear to be some oddities. To begin comparing, I want to first show this table with the empty weight of several Federation/AEUG MS from the late U.C. 0080's:

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MSN-00100	31.5 Gundarium Gamma Alloy
MSZ-006  	28.7 Gundarium Gamma Alloy
MSZ-010  	32.7 Gundarium Gamma Alloy
RX-178   	33.4 Titanium/Ceramic Composite

First, a quick comparison among Gundam types. I can see two interesting details here: 1) the Gundam Mk II is slightly heavier than the Hyaku Shiki, which seems to have similiar proportions. 2) The bulky ZZ is lighter than the RX-178. Let's add a few MP units now:

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MSA-002  	33.1 Gundarium Gamma Alloy
MSA-003  	36.2 Gundarium Alpha Alloy
MSA-099  	32.2 Gundarium Gamma Alloy
MSN-00100	31.5 Gundarium Gamma Alloy
MSZ-006  	28.7 Gundarium Gamma Alloy
MSZ-010  	32.7 Gundarium Gamma Alloy
RGM-79R  	40.5 Titanium/Ceramic Composite
RGM-86R  	38.6 Titanium/Gundarium Alloy
RMS-154  	40.1 Gundarium Gamma Alloy
RX-178   	33.4 Titanium/Ceramic Composite

Here you can observe how the GM II is the heaviest mass produced unit and uses the same armor as the Mk II. From that we can deduce that Mk II's movable frame most indeed make it lighter than other MS built with the same materials. The Hyaku Shiki's light weight most be most directly related its armor material rather than any tech advancment that it may have received from the Mk II (if any before its completition), but it is the Zeta and ZZ which seems to owe their light weight to a combination of both.

In the table we can also notice that both the Rick Dias and Marasai, which have Gundarium Gamma alloy and are both built by Anaheim, are the lightest mass production MS of the list. Although also built by Anaheim, the Nemo is heavier than the the previous two, supposedly because of its older Gundarium Alpha alloy, which is heavier but cheaper than Gudnarium Gamma. Its successor, the GM III, which has a Titanium/Gundarium Composite armor material and is partially based on the Gundam Mk II, ends up lighter than the GM II, but heavier than the Nemo.

But the oddest one of this bunch is the Barzam, which supposedly is also based on the Gundam Mk II and has Gundarium Gamma armor, but weights almost as much as the older GM II. In this thread Mark indictaes that the Barzam is also based on the Marasai, since the Gundam Mk II have been stolen. Either way, despite using either of those light MS as base models, the oversimplification of the Barzam seems to end up making it heavier than other MP units of its time. It occurs to me that maybe the Barzam used Gundarium Gamma for its structure, but not for its armor, which could have contributed to reduce its, but also increased it weight.

Now the interesting part: Axis/Neo Zeon Mass Produced MS, which supposedly all have Gundarium armor:

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AMX-003 	40.8
AMX-004G   35.2
AMX-006 	28.7
AMX-007 	34.8
AMX-008 	31.6
AMX-009 	36.7
AMX-011 	44.2
AMX-014 	36.8
AMX-101 	52.7
AMX-101K	52.7
AMX-102 	23.7
AMX-107 	34.7
AMX-109 	38.7

The biggest surprises are the Dreissen and Dooben Wolf, which despite being classfied as heavy MS, seem to have a rather low weight despite their heavy armor and the later's rather extensive arsenal and features.

While most Neo Zeon units have a weight below 40 tons, like many of the more advanced MP MS from the Gryps war, the Gaza C, Axis most common MS, seems rather heavy. It has been pointed out that the Gaza C has some structural weaknesses that don't allow it to transform more than a few times, so given such characteristics I would actually feel inclined to think that maybe the Gaza C doesn't use Gundarium Gamma, specially considering that its most direct successor, the more heavily armed Gaza D, weights less than 30 tons.

Another oddity is the Zaku III, which also weights above 40 tons. For comparison, the bulky Dreissen seems to have been built around the same time and under a similar concept, but weights 8 tons less. This is just a thought I had, but what if these machines are actually using components from OYW units, given the supposed scarcity fo resources, which could explain why the Zaku III is heavier (due to using the heavier parts of an older Zaku units compared to those of a late model Dom type).

And the big shock comes from the Gallus J and its Gallus K cousin, which weight a rather ridiculous 52.7 tons, which seems excessive for a mass produced unit at that point in time. Could the weight of both the Zaku III and Gallus series actually be wrong, or is there an explanation for their weight?

Finally, some minor comparison of some OYW units and their post-war descendants:

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MSM-01   	43.3	SHSA	
RMS-192M 	48.8	Titanium/Gundarium Alloy
	
MS-14A 	42.1	SHSA
MS-14D 	43.7	SHSA	
MS-14J 	43.7	Titanium Alloy
		
AMX-117L 	40.5	Gundarium Alloy
AMX-117R 	40.5	Gundarium Alloy
RMS-117  	36.3   Titanium Alloy

The Zaku Mariner seems to be slightly heavier than its older brother, which should be due to the additional subroc launchers across its body, but its still heavier than other MS of the era despite having the same armor amterial as the GM III. Given that it is heavier than the MSM-01, I'm also inclined to think that is actually using Titanium alloy or SHSA as its armor material.

Next we have the Gelgoog. The Re-Gelg seems to weight around the same as a regular Gelgoog, which seems fine considering that its only a minor upgrade and the weight of the additional parts might be compensated with the replacement of some older components with newer lighter ones. I do find odd the choice for Titanium alloy instead of SHSA as the rest of their units, but it's still an acceptable claim in this case.

Finally, this brings us to the Galbaldy Beta and the Gazu series. The first thing that becomes clear is that the Gazus are heavier than the Galbaldy, despite the supposed advantage of Gundarium alloy. Once again the use of some other armor material would sound more plausible. In Gundam Frag, some short extras of ZZ Gundam Blu-Rays, we do see the ZZ Gundam engaging Galbaldy Betas in at least two different occasions, so I do consider the possibility that those are actually Neo Zeon units (maybe even MS-17B or AMX-117), and that the Gazus are merely heavily customized Galbaldy Betas.

While the Federation's RMS-117 and RMS-192M do probably sue regualr titanium alloy, my main doubt would be if the Zeon made Galbaldy Beta and Re-Gelg also use Titanium, or rather use SHSA as their armor material, like Zeon's OYW MS.

[toysdream]

Lots of stuff here, so I'll pick and choose...


The specs from Zeta and ZZ have all kinds of oddities, and it's hard to draw direct comparisons. As you suggest, the Gundam Mark II's frame design seems to make it much lighter. One of the closest Gundarium-armored analogues to the Mark II might be the MSF-007 Gundam Mark III, which is directly based on the Mark II. The Mark III has quite a lot of extra equipment--a big backpack, the skirt--but its base weight is still just 32.1 tons, and its full weight of 48.2 tons is about six tons less than that of the Mark II or Hyaku Shiki.

The Nemo is hard to assess. Sources disagree about its actual armor material, and the most recent (like the MG kit manual) claim that it's based on Zeon technology despite its exterior, and its internals have little in common with the GM series.


The Neo Zeon stuff is all over the map, especially when you apply the mass ratio specs and start looking at how much propellant the different types are supposed to carry. Going by their specs, the Gaza D and Doven Wolf carry about 32 and 30 tons of propellant respectively, which is an awful lot; just for comparison, the Gaza D carries eight tons more than the Gaza C, and the Doven Wolf carries seven tons more than the Geymalk. The poor Zaku II and Zaku III Custom, meanwhile, only carry about 18 and 21 tons respectively.

There's no particular rhyme or reason here; the machines with freakishly light base weights still have similar full weights to the others, so their specs indicate that they make up the difference with humongous propellant capacity. But if you went through and listed all these machines alongside their full weights, they'd probably look a lot more technologically consistent.

Postulate 1: Full weights are credible, base weights are BS. Discuss.


As for the vintage mobile suits in Zeta and ZZ, I'd give these specs more credence than the ones published later on in books like the Entertainment Bible series. In other words, where the Zaku Marine Type specs conflict with those of the Zaku Mariner, I believe the latter. Or perhaps we could posit that they're actually the specs of the Marine Hizack, which is based on the prototype RX-106? In any case, it's implausible that the pressure-resistant Zaku Marine Type could be so much lighter than any other Zaku II variation.

Likewise, the only armor specs I'm 100% convinced of are the ones listed for the Zeta and ZZ machines. The lightweight Dowadge, the reasonably light Zaku Mariner, and the ultra-lightweight Galbaldy Beta all have titanium alloy armor; the lightweight ReGelgu is armored with "titanium composite," whatever that is. As for the Desert Zaku, its armor material is super high-tensile steel, rather than the super-hard steel alloy used for the Zaku II; that could contribute to its lighter weight.


So let's narrow our sample and flip open Occam's Razor. It appears that Gundarium Alpha, titanium alloy, and titanium ceramic composite are all pretty similar in weight - we can tell that by comparing the Gundam, GM, and GM II. The Dowadge, Galbaldy Beta, and Zaku Mariner are all made from titanium alloy, plus bits of Gundarium. Whatever the nature of the "Gundarium composite" the Gaz R/L is made from, its weight seems to be comparable to that of the Galbaldy Beta.

The Desert Zaku has a base weight six tons higher than that of a Hizack, even though it presumably uses a similarly modern generator. So super high-tensile steel seems to be a bit heavier. (The four-ton difference in base weight between the Desert Zaku and the current specs for the Zaku Desert Type, meanwhile, may be mostly due to the generator.)

The super-hard steel alloy used in the original Zaku II, finally, seems to be the heaviest of all.

Postulate 2: We can guess at the armor materials of every other Zeon machine by comparing their base weights to the categories above.


-- Mark

[doghunter1]

(Which further suggests that it might be designed by Zimmad rather than Zeonic, which would make sense given the Sakhalin family's apparent involvement with the Rick Dom.)

-- Mark

Where is that mentioned?