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 Post Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:49 pm 
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It just occurred to me that there's enough comparative info on mobile suit production costs floating around that we can actually come up with a pretty good cross-selection. Consider the following snippets of info from various sources, comparing the per-unit production costs of one machine to another...


EMS-04 Zudah: 1.8 times that of MS-05 Zaku I
MA-08 Big Zam: equal to two Musai cruisers (as per Gundam Century)

Core Fighter: almost three times that of MS-06 Zaku II (as per Entertainment Bible 1)
RX-77 Guncannon: four times that of MS-06 Zaku II (as per Mobile Suit Variation 3)
RX-78 Gundam: more than seven times that of MS-06 Zaku II (as per Mobile Suit Variation 3)
RGM-79 GM: one fifth that of RX-78 Gundam (as per MG kit manual)
RB-79 Ball: less than one quarter that of RGM-79 GM (as per Gundam Century)

RMS-154 Barzam: 1.5 times that of RMS-179 GM II (as per Gundam Film Book Series 2)


So if a Gundam costs more than 7 times as much as a Zaku II - call it 7.5 times - then a GM would cost 1.5 times as much as a Zaku II, and a Ball would cost about .35 Zakus.

The Core Fighter alone costs almost three times as much as a Zaku II, so the bodies of the Guncannon and Gundam (sans Core Fighter) would cost a bit more than one Zaku and four Zakus, respectively. No wonder they ended up building so many Guncannons!

The EMS-04 Zudah is compared against the Zaku I, not the Zaku II, so we can't make a direct comparison. Its production costs are probably similar to those of a GM. Likewise, the Barzam is compared against the GM II, so it's probably in the ballpark of two and a half Zakus...

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:48 am 
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Wow, I thought Gundam economics was non-existent.

So is one Gundam 7 times more efficient than 7 Zakus? We would need 7 pilots for the Zakus though.

Unit costs would be primarily attributed to material and labour costs. The initial outlay of research and development costs would be another story.


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:18 am 
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I'm a little surprised they didn't make more Gundams after the initial prototypes. How many GMs did they produce again?


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:11 am 
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Toss this in and you've got a lovely mess:

Hizack 1,500,000 gira
Bound Doc 99,999,000 gira
Galbaldy Beta 4,500,000 gira
GM-II 987,000 gira
Nemo 1,080,000 gira
Rick Dias 8,540,000 gira
Zaku Cannon 630,000 gira
Space Pod 7,000 gira
Hizack Beam Rifle 3,400 gira
Z-Gundam Shield 8,000 gira


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:51 pm 
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Deacon: Those numbers were supposed to be "market prices" for salvaged junk parts. (They come from one of the Animedia ZZ books, in a comedy section devoted to the space junk business.) So they aren't supposed to represent production costs, just the "eBay value" of various odds and ends.

Geoxile: The safest answer would probably be "hundreds." :-)

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Geoxile wrote:
I'm a little surprised they didn't make more Gundams after the initial prototypes. How many GMs did they produce again?


Mark gave the short answer, but since I was already looking it up (Since I needed more excuses to procrastinate from reading crap for school :mrgreen:), here's the long answer...

To start, you've got 42 pre-production RGM-79 GMs (The infamous A-type), followed by at least 288 of the "B-type" (Mark notes in this thread that the Feds themselves aren't even sure how many, thanks to lost data and whatnot). Then you have under 50 of the GM Sniper, Guard, and Intercept Customs running around (About half are of the Sniper Type), and the total run of the GM Light Armor is also said to be under 50. However, with those variants, it's said they were created by converting standard GMs to those variants, so I'm not sure if that previous 288 figure would refer to the total production (Meaning only about 188 basic GMs are out there) or is the production after already subtracting the 100-ish for those variants. Plus, there are around 60 RGM-79[G] pre-production models, between 50 and 60 GM Cannons depending on which source you prefer (See previous link), and around a dozen GM Sniper IIs.

From just those types alone, you've got possibily as many as 550-ish GMs running around during the OYW. And that doesn't even add the various other types, such as the RGM-79G, -79G, and -79GS that came from Augusta (Of which I don't know of production figures off hand), or the RGM-79[E] and -79C from Luna II (I've heard it suggested that the GM Kai was the second most produced variant after the basic GM, but again, no numbers that I know of), or any of those other variants running around (Such as the several -79F types, or the Armored GM, or Aqua GM, which I think were all built in small numbers but might add up considerably).

So yeah, there's a lot of 'em. :P

The guy I got most of the previous information from wrote:
Deacon: Those numbers were supposed to be "market prices" for salvaged junk parts. (They come from one of the Animedia ZZ books, in a comedy section devoted to the space junk business.) So they aren't supposed to represent production costs, just the "eBay value" of various odds and ends.


So that's where those come from, for some reason I thought they were in the background of some scene in ZZ. Did the book just list the numbers, or was anything mentioned about why the numbers are what they are?

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:50 pm 
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mcred23 wrote:
Then you have under 50 of the GM Sniper, Guard, and Intercept Customs running around (About half are of the Sniper Type), and the total run of the GM Light Armor is also said to be under 50.

The original MSV sources said that there were about 50 of the Sniper/Guard/Intercept and Light Armor types combined, so there really can't be that many Light Armors running around.

The figure of 42 early and 288 late-model GMs also comes from the MSV series, and I don't think it's aged well. This seems out of whack with the number of ships in the Federation fleet, and even the folks who wrote the MSV docs seem to have changed their stance in the current MSV-R series. For example, we're told that the Federation Forces produced a total of 88 units of the airborne "Night Seeker" type; the first twelve were created by customizing existing machines, and many of the rest were produced after the war, but that's still an awful lot of units for such a specialized machine.

The Night Seeker II, which is based on the Light Armor type, accounted for a total of 38 units - 26 produced after the war - which seems like considerably more than the standard Light Armor. It's unclear whether those numbers are included in the total for the standard Night Seeker, but from the Gundam Ace writeups, it kind of sounds like they're additional. That would give us a grand total of 126 units of this "rare special forces type"!

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So that's where those come from, for some reason I thought they were in the background of some scene in ZZ. Did the book just list the numbers, or was anything mentioned about why the numbers are what they are?

Yeah, there's a lot of accompanying text about the mobile suit collector's market. It's all rather tongue-in-cheek and totally unofficial. I can see why you're confused, because I think people usually just copy-and-paste those numbers without any context. :-)

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Market prices is still nice, I am surprised that a Baund Doc is for sale and the fact that the Nemo is cheaper than the Galbaldy and Hizack.


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Calubin_175 wrote:
Market prices is still nice, I am surprised that a Baund Doc is for sale and the fact that the Nemo is cheaper than the Galbaldy and Hizack.

well the nemo was basically an GM KO that actually improved on the ms it copied. With the Baund Doc i guess the defecting Titans had to make money for axis some how or they salvaged one of the units that fought in zeta.

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:36 am 
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You guys are really overthinking a price list that's already been explained twice as a silly throwaway joke.

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 4:41 pm 
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What about the Dom and Gelgoog?

The first one always struck me as a unit much more expensive than the Zaku, but since its hover system solved the ground mobility issue most MS had until then, it helped it getting chosen over the Gouf and Efreet.

On the other hand, we are told that the Gelgoog was easy to produce since only its reactor and the beam weapons had new technologies, the later which entered production after the Gelgoog itself had already been completed. This made me wonder if it could actually be possible that the Gelgoog is actually less costly than the Dom. Though by the same logic, the Rick Dom which replaced the hover system with more traditional thrusters might actually be cheaper than the Rick Dom.

As a side note, could the UMP as well as the plan to switch from the heavily armed Musai LPT (0083 version) to the lighlty armed Musai FPT (0080 version) have also been influenced by a need to reduce costs?

Finally, any idea how much would the gold that Cima sent to Kelly to buy the Val Varo be worth?


Last edited by Gelgoog Jager on Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 10:14 pm 
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Comparing Dom and Rick Dom production costs has some extenuating economic factors. The short answer is that mass producing the Rick Dom was cheap as hell, considering it was always a stopgap machine. The complication is that the low cost is in good part tied to the fact that most of the development costs would have already been budgeted into the Dom's production. At the same time the existence of the Rick Dom makes production of the original Dom more economically viable because of the much larger number of units sharing something like 95% of parts.


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 Post Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:06 pm 
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DeltasTaii wrote:
Comparing Dom and Rick Dom production costs has some extenuating economic factors. The short answer is that mass producing the Rick Dom was cheap as hell, considering it was always a stopgap machine. The complication is that the low cost is in good part tied to the fact that most of the development costs would have already been budgeted into the Dom's production. At the same time the existence of the Rick Dom makes production of the original Dom more economically viable because of the much larger number of units sharing something like 95% of parts.


You make some good points. Since it shares the components of the Dom that also should reduce cost per unit (we are only considering the cost per MS here right?, not development costs).

Also, I forgot to mention this earlier regarding Mark's first post:

It all seems fine, but I still have a hard time believing that the body of a Guncannon minus the core fighter is the same cost of a Zaku; aren't Guncannons supposed to also use Luna Titanium alloy for their heavy armor? Then there's also the generators which add up the same output of the RX-78-2.

Could this also mean that lightly retooled variations of the Guncannon such as the RX-77-3 and RX-77-3D, which if I'm not mistaken lack the core block system, cost less or as much (considering the extra cost for a standard cockpit) to produce than the GM, which has a lower output generator and less armor made of cheaper materials?


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 Post Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 4:12 pm 
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However much the Dom costs, it's presumably more affordable than the MS-06R-2 Zaku II. It seems like the Gelgoog should be a bit pricier, thanks to its more powerful reactor and whatnot. But without any sample numbers, it's hard to guess.

As for the Guncannon, these numbers do have some wiggle room. The Core Fighter is "almost three times" the cost of a Zaku II, which could be as little as 2.5 times, making the hollowed-out Guncannon 1.5 times - the same as a fully-equipped GM. (In this case, the empty Gundam would be 4.5 to 5 times, or more than triple the cost of the Guncannon.) That seems like a real bargain, but all the more reason to rush a bunch of Guncannons into production to take advantage of the investment in Core Fighters! This also makes a good case for a downgraded mass-produced version, which really could end up being similar in price to a GM.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:22 am 
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toysdream wrote:
As for the Guncannon, these numbers do have some wiggle room. The Core Fighter is "almost three times" the cost of a Zaku II, which could be as little as 2.5 times, making the hollowed-out Guncannon 1.5 times - the same as a fully-equipped GM. (In this case, the empty Gundam would be 4.5 to 5 times, or more than triple the cost of the Guncannon.) That seems like a real bargain, but all the more reason to rush a bunch of Guncannons into production to take advantage of the investment in Core Fighters! This also makes a good case for a downgraded mass-produced version, which really could end up being similar in price to a GM.

-- Mark


That does sound about right, specially if the federation built the core fighters first without having decided exactly which unit each would be used on.

We have talked about the Gundam and Guncannon, but what about the Guntank? At times it almost seems that despite being the most simple model of the RX series, it was the one built in fewest numbers. Are there any figures regarding its production run or that of its variants?


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 Post Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:05 am 
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Now, this is the topic to watch! Comparative cost vs. fielded numbers of units will point toward military budgets, which eventually point back to the governments these militaries receive budgets from.

Who knows? Maybe, someday, we can whittle the details down so fine that only a certain type of Federal government is possible.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 12:36 pm 
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toysdream wrote:
mcred23 wrote:
Then you have under 50 of the GM Sniper, Guard, and Intercept Customs running around (About half are of the Sniper Type), and the total run of the GM Light Armor is also said to be under 50.

The original MSV sources said that there were about 50 of the Sniper/Guard/Intercept and Light Armor types combined, so there really can't be that many Light Armors running around.

The figure of 42 early and 288 late-model GMs also comes from the MSV series, and I don't think it's aged well. This seems out of whack with the number of ships in the Federation fleet, and even the folks who wrote the MSV docs seem to have changed their stance in the current MSV-R series. For example, we're told that the Federation Forces produced a total of 88 units of the airborne "Night Seeker" type; the first twelve were created by customizing existing machines, and many of the rest were produced after the war, but that's still an awful lot of units for such a specialized machine.

The Night Seeker II, which is based on the Light Armor type, accounted for a total of 38 units - 26 produced after the war - which seems like considerably more than the standard Light Armor. It's unclear whether those numbers are included in the total for the standard Night Seeker, but from the Gundam Ace writeups, it kind of sounds like they're additional. That would give us a grand total of 126 units of this "rare special forces type"!

Quote:
So that's where those come from, for some reason I thought they were in the background of some scene in ZZ. Did the book just list the numbers, or was anything mentioned about why the numbers are what they are?

Yeah, there's a lot of accompanying text about the mobile suit collector's market. It's all rather tongue-in-cheek and totally unofficial. I can see why you're confused, because I think people usually just copy-and-paste those numbers without any context. :-)

-- Mark


...and if you toss this into the Dynasty Warriors Gundam version of things you might as well just toss your computer out the window for all the good it would do you.

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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:36 pm 
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I just can't remember where, but I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that it would be inefficient to mass produce Gundams since the cost of one or more units would rival that of warships (maybe it said White Base?).

Does anyone know where could that be from?


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 Post Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 11:48 pm 
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I know the MSG novels make the claim that a single Zaku cost as much as a crusier, so perhaps there is a similar remark about the Gundam in there too...

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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:17 am 
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I wanted to thank you for this great read!!

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