Dealing with a New type

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Dealing with a New type

Post by Nebfer » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:14 pm

How dose a regular human pilot(s) deal with a new type?

Example you have a battalion of mobile suits comprised with a number of veteran and elite pilots, but all are regular humans. How dose one deal with a new type?

This is primarily a UC Gundam situation.


Challenge how dose one deal with a new type ace like Amuro...

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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:21 pm

Refer to the episodes of Gundam X where Jamil teaches Garrod to kick Newtype butt.
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:15 pm

There's also the Blue Destiny series with Yu Kajima being a regular pilot up against EXAM-equipped MS a couple times before getting the Blue Destiny Unit 1. (Fought off an out-of-control Blue Destiny Unit 1 with a regular GM and fought off the Efreet Custom in a GM Cold Climate Type.)

Just being a good, strong pilot can be enough, as Yazan had shown. It's not like Newtypes can literally see into the future. They can feel and sense attacks coming and react immediately to them, essentially making them like very quick reflexes.
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by ShadowCell » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:19 pm

one thing not to do: don't kill the Newtype's girlfriend

otherwise you're just screwed. just screwed.

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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by Arsarcana » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:40 am

Don't kill the Newtype's girlfriend and don't be the Newtype's girlfriend.

Other than that, there's plenty of examples of non-Newtypes doing just fine against Newtypes. Being one is an advantage, nothing more. Even then it depends on a ton of factors. Char's famous comment about showing the limit of a superior suit when faced with a superior pilot holds as true for Newtypes vs non-Newtypes as it does for anything else.

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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by Nebfer » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:35 am

I see so if the pilots good enough even a newtwpe might have difficulty's.

Reading up on things, the gundam wiki mentions a mission in the game encounters in space while a what if it pits Amuro vs Gato, and says while it ended in a draw it mentions that Amuro mentions that Gato would of won in the end.

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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by Kenji » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:52 am

I'd say the answer is how you deal with any particularly skilled soldier: By numbers.

Not dumb numbers, mind you, but a collection of soldiers of diverse skillsets that've learned to work together as a unit. That's how the Romans defeated Der Biggen German Warrior despite being smaller men, and that's the basic precept that's been at the center of all military theory since.

It's also, I'd assume (whether the creators intended or not), why Newtypes haven't overthrown the Earth Federation.
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by DoubleZero » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:07 am

Well, if you're already a skilled pilot, you could also draw from a technological and environmental advantage. An example would be the Asshimar VS Hyaku Shiki and Mk2; both Kamille and Char's machines couldn't keep up with the Asshimar's mobility and maneuverability when it's in mobile armor mode, also they're on Earth so they also had gravity to deal with.
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:37 pm

Well, virtually every Newtype we've come across has never had any desire to rule everything, even after learning and controlling their abilities more. Only Haman really had such a goal in mind by restoring the Zabi family by using Mineva. Even Scirocco was all about having a woman ruling the Earth Sphere and not himself.

As mentioned though, numbers alone would've deterred any huge uprising The number of Newtype pilots compared to Oldtype pilots has an extremely large gap. It would be like...what...hundreds if not thousands of Oldtype pilots for every 1 (natural/developed) Newtype pilot? As we saw, even one on one can be difficult enough for the Newtype pilot if the Oldtype pilot is skilled enough, but add in squads of skilled, experienced Oldtype pilots and that Newtype will most likely fall unless its MS/MA is also very advanced and powerful itself and even then, it's no guarantee that the Newtype would win.
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by Nebfer » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:51 pm

Are their any other notable encounters?

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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by Dendrobium Stamen » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:44 pm

Unicorn episode 1, second scene: Almost-certainly-Oldtype pilot in a Stark Jegan vs. Marida in the Kshatriya. Depends whether we're counting Cyber-Newtypes in with natural Newtypes, really.

Either way, our nameless and faceless Stark Jegan pilot holds Marida at bay for the first minute or so simply by playing to the strengths of his machine - ranged combat with the shoulder missiles and the bazooka. Sadly, neither had the necessary oomph, so our pilot was honour-bound to fall into the old rule-of-cool trap of engaging in close combat, beam sabres at the fore; a style of combat the Stark Jegan isn't naturally suited for, and lacked the raw power to go toe-to-toe with an MS in that weight class.

So, one trick seems to be that: Avoid the funnels, don't get ensnared in a melee, play to the strengths of your MS. Simple! :roll:
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by Wingnut » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:34 am

Dendrobium Stamen wrote:Sadly, neither had the necessary oomph, so our pilot was honour-bound to fall into the old rule-of-cool trap of engaging in close combat, beam sabres at the fore; a style of combat the Stark Jegan isn't naturally suited for, and lacked the raw power to go toe-to-toe with an MS in that weight class.
Oddly enough that kinda worked in his favor given that his opponent relied mostly on its funnels for attack and those funnels were not able to get a clean shot with him in that close as they could just as easily hit the Kshatria as the Stark Jegan.
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by zerogradius » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:16 am

Kenji wrote:I'd say the answer is how you deal with any particularly skilled soldier: By numbers.

Not dumb numbers, mind you, but a collection of soldiers of diverse skillsets that've learned to work together as a unit. That's how the Romans defeated Der Biggen German Warrior despite being smaller men, and that's the basic precept that's been at the center of all military theory since.
Agreed. Victory Gundam had some good examples of this. Oldtype pilots led by competent commanders often gave Uso plenty of trouble despite that he was a powerful newtype. In fact, he hardly ever had an overwhelming advantage throughout the entire series.
It's also, I'd assume (whether the creators intended or not), why Newtypes haven't overthrown the Earth Federation.
Perhaps, but there has never been a large collection of newtypes coming together to do anything on such a scale. Their numbers have always been in single digits on any one side at any one point in time.

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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by AmuroNT1 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:20 pm

When it comes to funnels and the like, I'd say that it might take a clever mind to defeat them but a normal person can still do it (as demonstrated with Garrod). The important thing to remember is, aside from being mentally controlled, funnels are basically just tiny MS: they have mass and obey the laws of physics like everything else in the universe. The way to defeat them would seem to be just paying careful attention and trying to estimate where they're going to move and stop so you can shoot them down. Granted, doing so with six or so buzzing around you like hornets is highly improbable, but not impossible.
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by Imperial » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:02 pm

Dendrobium Stamen wrote:Either way, our nameless and faceless Stark Jegan pilot holds Marida at bay for the first minute or so simply by playing to the strengths of his machine - ranged combat with the shoulder missiles and the bazooka. Sadly, neither had the necessary oomph, so our pilot was honour-bound to fall into the old rule-of-cool trap of engaging in close combat, beam sabres at the fore; a style of combat the Stark Jegan isn't naturally suited for, and lacked the raw power to go toe-to-toe with an MS in that weight class.

So, one trick seems to be that: Avoid the funnels, don't get ensnared in a melee, play to the strengths of your MS. Simple! :roll:
Like Wingnut said, the beam saber strategy was actually fairly viable. The scatter shot and long-range game was a good idea, but it clearly wasn't going to win the day. Staying at range would only prompt a funnel storm. Getting in close like that was the only way to continue taking the fight to Marida without getting that funnel surgery.

The Stark Jegan's pilot was simply unlucky enough to be going up against a monster suit that was able to swat him away for the distance necessary to funnel-spam him to death.
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:25 pm

And most Funnel/Bit-based MS have 6 or more funnels going for them. 10-12 with the initial Qubeley / Mark IIs, and ranging up to 30 with the Qubeley Mass Production Type, Quin Mantha, and Kshatriya. Just 6 alone would be tricky to keep track of due to their size and speed, but as said, having them swarm around you, as is their purpose usually, will make it almost impossible to do.

And while trying to keep track of them, you still also got the MS itself to worry about, so your attention will probably be very divided. Also, being mentally controlled, Bits and Funnels would most likely be more unpredictable to regular pilots, especially in numbers since they can be simultaneously maneuvered in different ways. Opposing Newtype pilots however (Amuro and Scirocco and such), as we've seen, are able to discern how they're being controlled and able to overcome it pretty quickly.


In terms of getting close, Mashymre was able to dodge/shoot down some of the Quin Mantha's funnels and able to get in close enough to make a slash with his Zaku III's beam saber too. And even earlier, at the end of Zeta, you had Char attempting to "disable" Haman's use of the Qubeley's funnels by tackling her into the wall but, unfortunately, the funnels were far more precise and flexible than he expected.
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by Sume Gai » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:03 pm

Question is how finely can a single newtype control 12 or even 30 funnels? I'm willing to bet managing more than a few remotes would require even a skilled newtype to think in patterns that could be predicted.
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:20 pm

Well, we saw Lalah, even after adjustments made to stop her headaches (which I assume occurred due to distance of control and such), didn't seem to have too much trouble controlling 12 Bits in such ways. Of course, she was also a strong Newtype, but not that strong as a pilot either.

On the flip side, you got Cyber-Newtypes like Gyunei who don't seem to maneuver the Funnels very much at all. Same with weaker or younger/less developed Newtypes like Char, Pie, and such. However, a stronger Newtype like Amuro is able to finely align the Fin Funnels to create the Fin Funnel barrier which, especially while moving, probably requires a bit of focus to keep one from slipping and making the shield disappear on him. But then again, Chara seemed to do just fine controlling the Geymalk's 2 Mother Funnels AND the 28 Child Funnels...

So...pretty hard to say really...of course, true Newtypes seem to have better control than Cyber-Newtypes. x_x
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by Amion » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:57 pm

From what I understand, attacking the pilot directly and incapacitating them with an electrical stunning weapon, like Yahzan did to Kamille in Zeta with his grapple weapon. In that instance, even if Kamille had funnels, he would be unable to use them because he can't think. Now granted, Amuro used his funnel weapons when put in the same situation, so I guess my suggestion is mute.

In other words, don't kill the pilot's girlfriend or be her girlfriend. Or be a newtype yourself or an ace pilot with a sturdy MS.
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Re: Dealing with a New type

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:36 pm

Amion wrote:From what I understand, attacking the pilot directly and incapacitating them with an electrical stunning weapon, like Yahzan did to Kamille in Zeta with his grapple weapon. In that instance, even if Kamille had funnels, he would be unable to use them because he can't think. Now granted, Amuro used his funnel weapons when put in the same situation, so I guess my suggestion is mute.

In other words, don't kill the pilot's girlfriend or be her girlfriend. Or be a newtype yourself or an ace pilot with a sturdy MS.
Well, it is mentioned afterwards that the Funnels reacted because of the Gundam being in danger and that they were too sensitive, so the adjustments on the psycommu system itself plays a part too. Most likely because of Amuro rushing out with the Nu Gundam ahead of time before he could finish the adjustments that we see him doing when he gets the notice to return.

If they're too sensitive, then they will react with even the slightest bit of thought to it, even if you don't mean to, while if not sensitive enough, then they may not react at all to needing to really concentrate more than necessary to get them to work.
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