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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:21 am 
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AmuroNT1 wrote:
(bearing in mind that the WoL were Destiny's unique trait until they decided to give it to Strike Freedom too in one of their countless retcons).


The funny thing is Destiny gundam gets its payback years later, courtesy of the MG model. It is now the only other unit beside SF to have PS armoured joints but the reason is different from SF's and yes, it does glow too, but a dim metallic glow.

domino wrote:
2. Destiny's ranged weapons are limited to a SINGLE large cannon which can be easily targeted by enemies (strange that it wasn't)


erm... what about its beam rifle? I dont think its cannon is that large(its beam rifle is larger than the cannon), it sure is long though.Besides, it is not often that you see a rifle destroyed by another range attack. Providence's beam rifle is one of the largest i have seen and i dont remember anyone shooting it....

Personally, i think you rated lightning striker a bit too highly... it just increase the operating time by 150%, but in return it only has a electromagnetic cannon. This does make one wonders whether the longer battery life is partially due to its limited weapon.

I completely agree with what Evex wrote.


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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:54 pm 
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I didn't know that the Destiny was retconned to have PS-coated joints. What was the reasoning they gave for that?

I think you may have missed the multiple times that beam rifles were shot in SEED (and many other universes as well). That's not counting the fact that Kira does it in every single battle since he first used Freedom.

The Lightning Striker is a good example of combining the various weapon packs without changing the basic idea of the Gundam. In addition to the electromagnetic RAILGUNS (not cannon), it also added a gatling gun. However, the Lightning Striker's armament doesn't really work with each other. It's a rough amalgamation. The Freedom is an example of combining various weapon packs so that they can work in concert (ie the Freedom's HIMAT mode and "Full Burst" attack). The Destiny is an example of taking a few portions of the highly versatile Impulse Gundam's weapon packs and sticking them onto a design in a way that doesn't even provide half of versatility or offensive power as the base machine (Impulse). Alas, it's just my opinion but I'd rather pilot Freedom anyday than pilot the Destiny.


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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:51 pm 
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With the Lightning Striker, it's pretty clear that its weaponry is meant to be able to maximize the increased battery length. After all, in comparison to beam weapons and all, the railgun probably uses a lot less power to charge and fire while the gatling gun is a conventional weapon that doesn't need to suck battery power to use either, thus the energy is primarily used for the Phase Shift Armor, thus a far greater drain on the battery.


And, to be fair, the Impulse Gundam, in terms of the equipment, does have a disadvantage due to the fact that it must actually switch out and dock between each pack in order to even begin using them.

This means that either...

A.) Before each battle, a choice has to be made on which Silhouette Pack would fit the situation best and launch out with that.

...or...

B.) If by chance the situation changes or turns out to be different so that the chosen Silhouette Pack isn't suited for it, the Impulse either has to take the time to retreat to the Minerva to be able to switch equipment safely inside and then go back out OR they must risk the equipment by launching it out and then the Impulse making itself vulnerable by switching out in the middle of the battlefield.

Kira almost got done in by this early on by almost getting shot down by Yzak when he had to switch out the Aile Striker for the Launcher Striker being launched out from the Archangel (if Yzak shot his beam rifle instead of the grenade launcher attachment, he very well could have killed Kira, even with the last second miraculous re-charging of its Phase Shift). Fighting one on one like Shinn did vs. Kira and the Freedom is one thing, but in the middle of a larger and/or more chaotic battlefield, the chances of the above happening are far higher.

While the Destiny Gundam may simply be a "jack of all trades, master of none", its advantage is that it has a portion (usually the strongest aspects of each) equipment on hand, ready for immediate use. While it may not be as good as each individual pack's equipment with the Impulse, which completely fits each role with the Packs with multiple things to maximize the effectiveness in that role, it eliminates all those other disadvantages by having the stuff there already.

This integrated versatility allows the Destiny Gundam to remain on the battlefield and able to handle things as the situation changes without needing to leave his wing-mates and lessening their force on the battlefield by needing to return for an equipment change or risking itself and/or equipment getting damaged/destroyed/captured by having it launched out to the Destiny Gundam just so it doesn't have to leave the battlefield to change.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:42 pm 
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domino, I think you might be confused about the Lightning Striker. Its main (and seemingly only) weapon is the electromagnetic cannon; Super Robot Wars gave it arm machineguns, but I've never seen any official sources on this. It doesn't really combine the aspects of the primary packs at all - where's the mobility and melee? Maybe you mean the IWSP?

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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 7:51 pm 
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Quite right AmuroNT1, the whole time I've been referring to the Lightning Striker, I really meant the IWSP. My apologies.

Regarding the comments from Halfdemon, I think Kira did a good job with switching weapon packs when he was fighting Athrun & friends in the battle where Nichol was killed. Since the Impulse's weapon packs can be flown via drones then Shinn can do the exact same thing on the battlefield. A moot point ultimately.


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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Well, in an ideal world where writers determine everything (lol) or it's a smaller battle/battlefield, it can work out fine, but it still doesn't lessen the risks that are being taken to the MS itself and/or the equipment being taken out there. It's one of the reasons why the Sky Grasper was made, IIRC. Not only to be able to transport other Striker Packs to the Strike, but they themselves can also use the equipment to defend themselves if they happen to be attacked in the middle of the battlefield. (Though, the only one really capable of doing so is the Launcher Strike given the Sword Striker would have to get in close and we never saw the Aile Striker used on the Sky Grasper, IIRC.)

Of course, even that doesn't completely negate the danger since, as we saw with the Launcher Striker on the Sky Grasper that time with Mwu (in Alaska, IIRC), the equipment can still get shot and destroyed.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 8:55 am 
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Oh yeah, i forgot about Kira's beam spam against the grunts. Since that rarely work against ace pilots, did he destroy beam rifles on a regular basis with other methods? For that matter, did other ace pilots do it on a regular basis as well?

Ah i see, so you meant IWSP, that makes more sense. IIRC, one of the MG manual mentions that the gatling shield makes the unit unbalance thus it is rated lowly by most of the pilots.

Destiny's joints are PS armoured to control their stiffness. I suppose an example would be when swinging a sword, the joint should not be too stiff while just before making contact with an object, it should be the opposite to ensure more cutting power.

Well, the Sword striker equipped skygrasper did do some decent damage against Lessep i think...


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 Post Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:07 am 
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Come on, we all know real reason. It's how Bandai want to tell us that Shinn is EXACTLY third in position as protagonist. Kira has glowing gold, Athrun has glowing silver and Shinn got dim metallic, it's obvious! :D

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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:37 am 
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IJ's joint never glows.... If not for the official website, i would have just thought the joints are light grey. Destiny's joint are mentioned that way to fit the fact that it did not glow onscreen. It is a retcon afterall.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Let's be honest here, they've changed the info on Strike Freedom so much that it's really hard to know exactly what's going on anymore.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:19 pm 
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That's certainly true. :lol:

But getting back on topic, I would not say that Destiny was "only a test platform". At least. nothing in its backstory - either within the series itself or in the materials concerning it that were published afterwards - conclusively supports that claim.
Quote:
Destiny is the only MS that carries a standard shield (it might point to the fact that it was equipped with an less reliable version of beam shields
That is pure speculation - nothing about the Destiny's beam shields as they're portrayed in the series the few times they are used even remotely hints at this possibility; I would also point out that the DOM Trooper and Legend Gundam are both equipped with the same model of beam shield, and neither machine carries a physical shield. As to why the Destiny does, that's a mystery that'll probably never be explained, though I would speculate that it's there in case it runs into weapons that can penetrate beam shields - such things do exist, as has been said above.

Quote:
the standard propulsion system seems to point at a MS from Freedom's (ZGMF-X10A) generation (leg and main thrusters) rather then S.F.'s generation

I would point out that all three machines - SF, IJ, and Destiny - have conventional main and leg thrusters. So that is not a good indicator to use - in fact IJ has ONLY conventional-type thrusters, making it technologically somewhat less advanced than either of the other two in spite of its astonishingly high close-combat capabilities.

On another note, I can't remember exactly when - I think it may have been during the Orb battle - but I distinctly recall the Destiny attacking multiple enemy mobile suits at one point and in one scene(in which Destiny itself is not visible) one of the enemy machines is destroyed by a thin, blue-white beam; note that the beam rifle shots are green and those of the BFG are rather wider and colored blue-and-red like those of the Callidus series beam cannons on the Abyss, Chaos, and SF (as well as their predecessor, the Scylla used in Earth Alliance mobile suits like the Aegis and Calamity). Process of elimination would thus indicate that while never otherwise shown as such, the palm beam gun does have at least medium-long range strike capability. I confess this is NOT conclusive and I'm not saying it's definitely a fact - just what the animation seems to imply.

I also take issue with describing it as having "limited versatility", because honestly it doesn't. It's not well-equipped, but it IS equipped for combat at all ranges against a variety of possible targets - its ASBS and long-range beam cannon give it the ability to destroy targets up to and including capital ship-class at very long range or at very close quarters; Its maneuverability is high compared to all but two other mobile suits ever fielded in the series. If anything, poorly-designed as it is it's more versatile than IJ, which has ungodly high close-quarters capability but very lackluster ranged firepower(limited to its beam rifle and two laughably small beam cannons), or SF which has ridiculously high ranged firepower in space, but is no better armed for close-range combat than the Impulse was, and in any case loses more than half its total firepower when operating on Earth. Of course the bare minimum is sufficient when the writer/director's decided you get to be the good guy now(more on that below)
As for the WoL, if anything they're far more intelligently designed than SF's, as in the latter case the WoL are obstructed by the DRAGOONs and therefore cannot be used in space unless those are deployed, and cannot be used at all on Earth where the DRAGOONs are inoperable in any case.

ultimately the problem is two-fold, and it lies outside the realm of in-universe explanations or retcons:
1. The Destiny Gundam, as much as I like it, came along right around the time that Fukuda finally decided his main protagonist wasn't gonna be the main protagonist anymore and decided to outright make him the bad guy. Ergo, its performance against the characters who upstaged him in that role seems less than stellar*. This is the reason why, among other things its WoL are made to appear essentially ineffective against SF and IJ.
2. Let's face it, it's not a very well thought-out design. There's long been a rumor floating around the 'net that Destiny's design was recycled from a rejected design for the Freedom Gundam back in Seed. That's unsubstantiated as far as I know and thus about as credible as something you'd see on /m/ (which is probably where it came from in the first place), but given #1 above, it's not implausible.
Which is the reason why [shameless plug] in the GSD rewrite I'm currently working on, I completely overhaul the Destiny Gundam design, taking the same basic concept(a machine tailored to Shinn's specific combat style, incorporating next-generation technologies and blending the capabilities of the various Impulse Silhouette packs) and creating a machine that's more in keeping with the level of technology we see by the series end - incidentally, I heavily base the design on Destiny Impulse Unit 3(the blue one) as far as its general appearance and color scheme, though very few (if any) Impulse Gundam parts will be used[/shameless plug].
(*As an aside, I find amusing that although Kira upstaged Shinn as the main character, he never once decisively defeated him - that distinction went to Athrun.)

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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Slightly off topic, but one of the things that always bothered me was how Destiny is supposed to be the "one of the most advanced units", yet there are several problems that it has, that its predecessor did not.

In the case of SF, it gained even more weaponry (Super Dragoons) to be used in space. At worst, even on earth, it had the same amount of weaponry as the Freedom: (3 beams, 2 railguns, and 2 beam sabers).

In the case of IJ, it gave up a bunch of machineguns and vulcans in exchange for more beam blades and additional support with the grapple hook (even though Athrun never uses this in the show). This is not even a big sacrifice since many machinegun type weapons were being phased out.

Now let's look at the Destiny. It is the only post-second stage unit outside the Impulse, where all its weapons needed to be hand-held (and since its palm beam gun are in its hand, for the sake of the argument, they are basically always held). However, whereas the Impulse could always bring out another chest flyer, the Destiny cannot, and we even see how this goes horribly wrong in the show both times when IJ cuts its hand/arm off.

But I would hardly call the three regular Impulse better predecessors because it is obvious that they do not have the overall versatility of the Destiny. What I am referring to instead is the Destiny Impulse.

First of all, the Destiny Impulse has two Anti-Ship Swords and two high-energy beam cannon. While I am not one to automatically assume that more is necessarily better, it would seem to make more sense in keeping up with Shinn's combat experience, whose Sword and Blast Impulse has two swords and two beam cannons respectively. More importantly, whereas the Destiny is basically screwed if it loses both its arms, the Destiny Impulse could always send in a new Chest Flyer, thereby taking away one of Destiny's bigger weaknesses.

Of course, you could always say that the Destiny Impulse is inferior due to its battery life and high maintenance cost, but I personally find that kind of moot. Destiny is also known for a relative high maintenance cost. The case of Hyperion upgrading its battery to nuclear in X Astray seems to hint that it is not all that difficult to simply switch to nuclear on the Destiny Impulse.

Even if they had to redesign the Gundam from grounds up due to frame issues and what not, there's little reason why they should not have decided to try and incorporate the core flyer technology. One of Shinn's most amazing feat of destroying the Freedom relied ENTIRELY on him being able to separate and replace parts in the midst of battle.

In this way, I always felt that Destiny was more of a "proof of concept" of incorporating Destiny Impulse's armaments (or at least its style of armaments, since the Destiny's is supposed to be upgrades) into a single practical unit (especially in terms of battery life) rather than actually the state of the art developmental conclusion from the Destiny Impulse.


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 Post Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:40 pm 
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Blazer-X wrote:
In this way, I always felt that Destiny was more of a "proof of concept" of incorporating Destiny Impulse's armaments rather than actually the state of the art developmental conclusion from the Destiny Impulse.

Except that the point is, that's your opinion, and it is not only not supported by official material, it's contradicted entirely.
Officially, it's precisely the opposite; the Destiny Siilhouette was a "proof of concept" experimental equipment for the Impulse, which was adapted into the Destiny Gundam from the series.

Bearing that in mind, I do agree that the Destiny Impulse's armament set seemed more logical and better fitting Shinn's style overall - reusing the Excalibur swords of the Sword Silhouette and incorporating two beam cannons.

But unfortunately, the Destiny Impulse is an MSV design that was invented after the original Destiny made its own appearance, so its very existence constitutes a retcon and its actual relevance to the series itself is basically nil.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:23 am 
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More serious post now. :D

At worst, Destiny may be alternate plan after Gil come to conclusion that the original Impulse System descripted by Courtney in DESTINY ASTRAY, which is Impulse supported by squad of DRAGOON Flyer carrying Shilhouette packs, is just not practical. So he switch to a high performance general purpose unt instead. Even if that's the case, it still being full complete MS rather than a proof of concept or test platform.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:27 am 
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Dark Duel wrote:
2. Let's face it, it's not a very well thought-out design. There's long been a rumor floating around the 'net that Destiny's design was recycled from a rejected design for the Freedom Gundam back in Seed. That's unsubstantiated as far as I know and thus about as credible as something you'd see on /m/ (which is probably where it came from in the first place), but given #1 above, it's not implausible.
Which is the reason why [shameless plug] in the GSD rewrite I'm currently working on, I completely overhaul the Destiny Gundam design, taking the same basic concept(a machine tailored to Shinn's specific combat style, incorporating next-generation technologies and blending the capabilities of the various Impulse Silhouette packs) and creating a machine that's more in keeping with the level of technology we see by the series end - incidentally, I heavily base the design on Destiny Impulse Unit 3(the blue one) as far as its general appearance and color scheme, though very few (if any) Impulse Gundam parts will be used[/shameless plug].
(*As an aside, I find amusing that although Kira upstaged Shinn as the main character, he never once decisively defeated him - that distinction went to Athrun.)

Out of my fury regarding the imbalanced retconning that was done to the Strike Freedom and the gimping of the Destiny gundam, I redesigned the Destiny Gundam in high school to be utterly broken.

Blazer-X wrote:
Now let's look at the Destiny. It is the only post-second stage unit outside the Impulse, where all its weapons needed to be hand-held (and since its palm beam gun are in its hand, for the sake of the argument, they are basically always held). However, whereas the Impulse could always bring out another chest flyer, the Destiny cannot, and we even see how this goes horribly wrong in the show both times when IJ cuts its hand/arm off.

Frankly I thought the entire "cut off hands" argument was always pretty bogus. If they're good enough to cut off your hands, they're probably good enough to beat you with or without weapons that don't need hands to fire (barring Dragoons).


Last edited by latenlazy on Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:29 am 
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Dark Duel wrote:
On another note, I can't remember exactly when - I think it may have been during the Orb battle - but I distinctly recall the Destiny attacking multiple enemy mobile suits at one point and in one scene(in which Destiny itself is not visible) one of the enemy machines is destroyed by a thin, blue-white beam; note that the beam rifle shots are green and those of the BFG are rather wider and colored blue-and-red like those of the Callidus series beam cannons on the Abyss, Chaos, and SF (as well as their predecessor, the Scylla used in Earth Alliance mobile suits like the Aegis and Calamity). Process of elimination would thus indicate that while never otherwise shown as such, the palm beam gun does have at least medium-long range strike capability. I confess this is NOT conclusive and I'm not saying it's definitely a fact - just what the animation seems to imply.


That was indeed the Orb battle, I remember that moment as well, in part because it was pointed out and several people asked the same question you did.

FWIW, in the video game Generation of CE Destiny's Burst Attack is a combination of all its weapons which includes a ranged shot from the Palma Fiocina; it's depicted there as, you guessed it, a blue-white beam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ecwCaGjzRU#t=8m48s

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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 1:54 am 
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If you look at the Heaven's Base battle, after pulling off the "Destiny Finger", the beam actually pieces and goes through the Destroy Gundam so it could be a "practical" range weapon. Same thing also happens in the G Generation games although I can't remember it happening in SRW as the DS games graphics really aren't that great and Z uses a weird angle I think so I can't be sure about that either, Z2 part 1 the attack was missing as its finisher "Full Weapon Combination" was also taken out.

Although what's amusing is that both SRW and G Generation (Generation of C.E counts as G Gen game) have the Full Weapon Combination attack option. Although Generation of C.E is the only game that even portrays the Destiny using the Palma Fochina as a mid range weapon.


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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:52 am 
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Dark Duel wrote:
Except that the point is, that's your opinion, and it is not only not supported by official material, it's contradicted entirely.
Officially, it's precisely the opposite; the Destiny Siilhouette was a "proof of concept" experimental equipment for the Impulse, which was adapted into the Destiny Gundam from the series.


Ah yes. I am aware that officially, its the other way around, especially with Destiny Impulse's lack of nuclear power and recycling Impulse's weapons and what not. Sorry if I sounded like I was trying to make my opinions sound like fact (although I did mention "I felt"). But I am personally not comfortable seeing Destiny Gundam as the final developmental conclusion from the Destiny Impulse.

Quote:
Bearing that in mind, I do agree that the Destiny Impulse's armament set seemed more logical and better fitting Shinn's style overall - reusing the Excalibur swords of the Sword Silhouette and incorporating two beam cannons.


I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels this way. I guess technically, given their order of introduction in the real world, my real gripe is that the Destiny Impulse, which is created to explain the Destiny's development, actually ends up potentially more appropriate and versatile than the final product. It is given a battery weakness that seemed easy to fix if they had really wanted to. Partially why, like you, I sorta envision a more perfect Gundam for Shinn to be based off of the Destiny Impulse more so than the original Destiny.


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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:05 am 
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Blazer-X wrote:
Dark Duel wrote:
Except that the point is, that's your opinion, and it is not only not supported by official material, it's contradicted entirely.
Officially, it's precisely the opposite; the Destiny Siilhouette was a "proof of concept" experimental equipment for the Impulse, which was adapted into the Destiny Gundam from the series.


Ah yes. I am aware that officially, its the other way around, especially with Destiny Impulse's lack of nuclear power and recycling Impulse's weapons and what not. Sorry if I sounded like I was trying to make my opinions sound like fact (although I did mention "I felt"). But I am personally not comfortable seeing Destiny Gundam as the final developmental conclusion from the Destiny Impulse.

Quote:
Bearing that in mind, I do agree that the Destiny Impulse's armament set seemed more logical and better fitting Shinn's style overall - reusing the Excalibur swords of the Sword Silhouette and incorporating two beam cannons.


I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who feels this way. I guess technically, given their order of introduction in the real world, my real gripe is that the Destiny Impulse, which is created to explain the Destiny's development, actually ends up potentially more appropriate and versatile than the final product. It is given a battery weakness that seemed easy to fix if they had really wanted to. Partially why, like you, I sorta envision a more perfect Gundam for Shinn to be based off of the Destiny Impulse more so than the original Destiny.

Number of weapons does not equate to quality of weapons though.


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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:02 am 
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AmuroNT1 wrote:
FWIW, in the video game Generation of CE Destiny's Burst Attack is a combination of all its weapons which includes a ranged shot from the Palma Fiocina; it's depicted there as, you guessed it, a blue-white beam:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ecwCaGjzRU#t=8m48s


Actually, Palma Fiocina only has range shot in that game. It's mid range weapon in place of beam rifle.

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