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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:26 am 
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The arms issue isn't that much of a concern since both arms are protected by beam shields and Destiny SHOULD have been able to even catch a beam saber due to the palm beam weapons (however Athrun had plot-powered sabers)

I think that despite my criticisms of the Destiny's design, the beam shields are definitely not weak. IIRC, Shinn used one of the Destiny's beam shields to block a FULL BURST attack from a Destroy Gundam! Now, as for why the same beam shield could take that blast and couldn't take a shot from Strike Freedom well.............we know the answer to that already........


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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:03 am 
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Blazer-X wrote:
Of course, you could always say that the Destiny Impulse is inferior due to its battery life and high maintenance cost, but I personally find that kind of moot. Destiny is also known for a relative high maintenance cost. The case of Hyperion upgrading its battery to nuclear in X Astray seems to hint that it is not all that difficult to simply switch to nuclear on the Destiny Impulse.

Even if they had to redesign the Gundam from grounds up due to frame issues and what not, there's little reason why they should not have decided to try and incorporate the core flyer technology. One of Shinn's most amazing feat of destroying the Freedom relied ENTIRELY on him being able to separate and replace parts in the midst of battle.


On average, destiny impulse needs to be recharged 3 times per sortie and to make it worse its frame cannot withstand too many recharge. Furthermore, the amount of weaponry on the body is an extra burden for an MS that has many precision components in addition to the core splendor system. These are some of the reasons that the developers started all over from scratch.

As for adding a nuclear engine, well we have never seen its size so we are not really sure if it can fit into core splendor or any other body area besides the abdomen, which seems to be where the nuclear engine is located.


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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:22 pm 
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domino wrote:
Destiny SHOULD have been able to even catch a beam saber due to the palm beam weapons (however Athrun had plot-powered sabers)

You see, this is your problem. You make these statements and the inevitable response is going to be: Based on what? These aren't Minovsky weapons so we can't say that the palm cannons and sabers produce particles that naturally repel one another and we don't have enough (or any) evidence to say that the volume and/or quality of energy alone could physically deflect or stop the sabers in the absence of a tech explanation. I'll give Shinn all the credit in the world for an innovative attempt (it's one of the few genuinely good things the writers did with him during the last few episodes) but it clearly failed. They slowed the sabers a bit but didn't stop them, end of story. Let's not start talking about what Destiny can and can't do when it's flatly contradicted by the events happening onscreen.


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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:24 pm 
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E08 wrote:
On average, destiny impulse needs to be recharged 3 times per sortie and to make it worse its frame cannot withstand too many recharge. Furthermore, the amount of weaponry on the body is an extra burden for an MS that has many precision components in addition to the core splendor system. These are some of the reasons that the developers started all over from scratch.


Question...where did this idea that Destiny Impulse had to be recharged 3 times/sortie come from?

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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Arsarcana wrote:
You make these statements and the inevitable response is going to be: Based on what? These aren't Minovsky weapons so we can't say that the palm cannons and sabers produce particles that naturally repel one another and we don't have enough (or any) evidence to say that the volume and/or quality of energy alone could physically deflect or stop the sabers in the absence of a tech explanation.......(edited for brevity)........They slowed the sabers a bit but didn't stop them, end of story. Let's not start talking about what Destiny can and can't do when it's flatly contradicted by the events happening onscreen.


Like I said, Athrun had plot-powered beam sabers. What evidence do I have of that? Simple really..........

1. Every time that CE beam sabers clash they always repel or "lock horns" like UC beam sabers do. Might not be Minovsky particles involved but that's enough of a similarity there to expect Shinn's palm beam weapons (which can act as range or melee) should repel Athrun's own.

2. Shinn used the SAME palm beam weapon to blast a huge gaping hole in a Destroy Gundam. That's layers upon layers upon layers of Phase Shift armour he destroyed in a second and guess what? The weapon's energy wasn't even used up since it still emitted a steady stream of beam energy on the exit side of the attack. That more than means that those palm beam weapons are extremely strong and might rival battleship-class weapons. Unless you're going to say that I.Justice has beam sabers that outclass even THAT then....I dunno but if that is true then it's definitely plot-power in those beam sabers.

But I digress, the writers saw fit to plot-power Kira's METEOR so that it could cut up a freaking meteroite-sized battleship all in one strike.....so why not plot-power Athrun's beam sabers too? Makes perfect sense to me.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:31 am 
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I dunno, in all honesty I think when you start accepting "It happened because the plot said so", a technical discussion is pretty well out the window. I know that what we do at times is kind of absurd (we're debating the technical specs and performance of cartoon robots, for Heaven's sake), but at the very least for the purposes of debate we look past that and treat things semi-seriously. If we lose that, then discussion and debate is just about pointless.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:37 am 
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domino wrote:
1. Every time that CE beam sabers clash they always repel or "lock horns" like UC beam sabers do. Might not be Minovsky particles involved but that's enough of a similarity there to expect Shinn's palm beam weapons (which can act as range or melee) should repel Athrun's own.

Except that we have no idea what makes half the beam weapons in CE tick so we can't say that just because it's a beam weapon, it should be able to do X, Y or Z. Also, they're cannons, it's right there in the name. The fact that Shinn (almost?) exclusively uses them for melee attacks doesn't make them have any of the same properties as a beam saber without official words to that effect.

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2. Shinn used the SAME palm beam weapon to blast a huge gaping hole in a Destroy Gundam. That's layers upon layers upon layers of Phase Shift armour he destroyed in a second

And? So? Therefore? We've seen time and time again that PS, VPS and TP armor does bugger all against beam weapons. Now, the armor being incredibly thick is another matter but trying to use a Destroy as a yardstick for anything is a difficult proposition since the first one was a nightmare and the rest were little more than giant mooks. Even setting that aside, let me use your own argument against you to point out how weak it is: Freedom's beam sabers also had no trouble causing catastrophic damage to the Destroy. IJ's sabers are supposed to be upgraded versions of those sabers so you've got two weapons capable of tearing chunks out of a Destroy's armor clashing. Still want to argue that one should beat the other just because?


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:31 am 
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1. Kira has repeatedly blocked beam attacks (even from DRAGOONS) with his beam saber. So, I think that goes further to indicate similar physics as Minovsky particle weapons. It's not inconclusive but we don't have any evidence to the opposite (ie beams passing through each other or only being slowed)......well, except for Shinn's misfortune.

2. The GENESIS' armour disagrees with you. Also, Freedom's beam saber hit a charging beam cannon, causing it to explode on itself. It was the Impulse who slashed open the cockpit to reveal Stella. Even that was at a point where the armour would be thinnest (otherwise, how does it open?) However, Destiny blasted a gaping hole (not on one side but end-to-end) through the same Destroy in less than a second.

I agree that it's easier and more practical to simply accept what happened in the anime. Unfortunately, that occurrence contradicts (almost?) every other occurrence where a beam strikes another beam which usually results in deflection of the energy. That is why I contest it so much and why I don't believe that Shinn was being stupid and crazy when he tried that move. As for trying to kick a Gundam with beam sabers all over its body well..............I can't stand up for that one, lol

PS. Stella in the Destroy wasn't really that nightmare-ish as evidenced by how easily Shinn slashed the cockpit and Kira took her down. They didn't have much trouble with her besides the emotional conflict it caused Shinn


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:33 am 
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azrael wrote:
E08 wrote:
On average, destiny impulse needs to be recharged 3 times per sortie and to make it worse its frame cannot withstand too many recharge. Furthermore, the amount of weaponry on the body is an extra burden for an MS that has many precision components in addition to the core splendor system. These are some of the reasons that the developers started all over from scratch.


Question...where did this idea that Destiny Impulse had to be recharged 3 times/sortie come from?


That is from a chinese translation of the Destiny MSV. The japanese wiki article on Destiny impulse also has a similar claim.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:35 am 
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domino wrote:
The GENESIS' armour disagrees with you.


Fun fact, GENESIS is WAY larger, better armored and supplied with much more power than Destroy :mrgreen: .

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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:17 am 
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Funnier fact, the Destroy Gundam has a nuclear reactor (or does it?) and while its PS armour might not be able to tank a positron blast (multiple ones in the case of the GENESIS), it certainly should be able to take way more damage than a normal beam attack can dish out. The nuclear reactor isn't even that much of a factor but the heavy armour is. Any attack that can destroy several layers of thick PS armour is not one to be trifled with.

Eitherways, GENESIS was just an example that PS can withstand beams but only if it has enough power flowing into it and if it's thick enough


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:57 am 
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Nope, there is no official words on Destroy's power source. But it never has NJC in any media, not even in G Generation series. And nope, you just can't assume that its TP (most likely case, and at least G Generation Wars gp with this) can withstand beam shot because GENESIS can withstand Positron Blast, their scale are just too different. Basic math (and I did worst during highschool) even if A > B and A > C , it doesn't mean B > C .

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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:59 pm 
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Ok, I'm trying not to be cynical anymore but forget basic math...what about basic English? My point wasn't that Destroy Gundam's armour can withstand beam blasts. (We'll never know because Stella was way too good at using the beam shields and the other pilots were bombarded with melee..not sure how the manga encounter went) My point was that the Destiny's palm beam weapon has to be very strong to do what it did to a Destroy Gundam.

In the end, I really can't see how Shinn could've known that the palm beam weapons wouldn't have worked to stop Athrun's sabers since all conventional knowledge (and anime evidence) is that CE beams block CE beams even if it's a beam saber in question. Of course, I really wonder why Shinn didn't just use his beam shield which is on the OTHER side of his hand but hey...........


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 4:48 am 
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This is the move I'm sure every one is debating.

Destiny attempted beam saber block

The simple answer is that Athrun's beam saber's blocked the cannon's from firing. Just take a look at the palm cannons themselves.

MMI-X340 "Palma Fiocina" palm beam cannon

You see the small circle in the center of the palm that is where the beam energy is coming out from. Its small enough that a beam saber could block the blast if timed right. The resulting beam glow we see from the hands is the beam energy trying to escape. In this scenario the energy can't escape and back fires, which is why the destiny loses its arms from the elbow down.

The palm beam cannon to the Destroy Gundam was to the cockpit of the mobile suit. The cockpit is typically the least armored portion of the mobile suit, you would think it be the opposite. The Destiny also all ready has its hands through a layer or two, before it fires the palm beam cannon.

Destiny palm cannoning destroy gundam


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:58 am 
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When it comes to the Destroy Gundam and its massive bulk, "least armoured" is relative but I do get where you're coming from. Nice to consider the palm beam cannon as "charging" when it's glowing and preparing to fire. I like that idea eventhough it'd mean that Shinn hardly ever finished charging it.

Interesting thoughts on why Shinn's move didn't work but the anime clearly shows that it's not just the palm beam cannons backfiring since Destiny also loses its wings. It is indeed possible and definitely is something I'm more likely to accept however I think the writers were trying to show that I. Justice's beam sabers overpowered Destiny's palm beam cannons and still had enough energy to slice through both hands and the Destiny's wings even as they maintained the WingsOfLight.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:53 pm 
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Arsarcana wrote:
'll give Shinn all the credit in the world for an innovative attempt (it's one of the few genuinely good things the writers did with him during the last few episodes) but it clearly failed.


There are beam shields on the back of Destiny's hands. Shinn should have went with those instead of blowing up his hands.

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The GENESIS' armour disagrees with you.


That scene where GENESIS tanked a positron cannon(and what Andrew said about PS not being invincible) was removed in the Special Editions IIRC.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:10 am 
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Mobile suits have these crazy "arm" things that affect the force a melee weapon is swung with. There's a reason Infinite Justice makes such big swings.

When Freedom swings its saber at beam shots they aren't shown bouncing off or anything (which wouldn't necessarily make any sense) but rather splitting and dispersing around it, so basically cutting through beam projectiles is...a thing. Typically small beam gun shots aren't portrayed as having a lot of inertia, so a mobile suit arm is liable to apply more force than one. If that wasn't the case then MS wouldn't be able to hold their shields up against them. So yes, it's within expectations for a full power swing to push through Destiny's palm cannon fire. I can't imagine why this would seem intuitively wrong.

Blocking would just leave Destiny with an Infinite Justice all the way up in its face, which is not going to end well. Hoping to shoot it down if you have a plausible opening isn't that bad of an idea.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 11:55 am 
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This is a bit off topic, but it actually has some relevant information on where Z.A.F.T developed the variant of the "Voiture Lumiere" system for the destiny.

Gundam Official Definition on GENISIS

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Gamma Emission by Nuclear Explosion Stimulate Inducing System (GENESIS):

A giant gamma-ray laser cannon which serves as ZAFT's ultimate weapon. GENESIS is powered by nuclear explosions, which are made possible by N-Jammer Canceler technology. The burst of gamma radiation created by the explosion is directed towards an external alignment mirror, then reflected back onto the weapon's main section, where a secondary mirror turns it into a coherent laser beam. The alignment mirror block, which lies in the beam's path, is reduced to radioactive scrap and must be replaced before the weapon can be fired again. The entire system is protected by Phase Shift Armor, and Mirage Colloid technology is used to conceal its presence until ZAFT is ready to unveil it.

Despite its immense destructive power, GENESIS wasn't originally meant to be used as a weapon. Its original purpose was to deliver energy to the solar sails of interstellar spacecraft, making possible the exploration of other solar systems. When the system was redesigned for military use, it was adapted to emit gamma rays, a form of high-frequency electromagnetic radiation which can permeate solid matter and break down molecular structures. Although gamma rays themselves are invisible to the naked eye, the interplanetary gas which lies along GENESIS's firing path emits light as its atoms are excited by the intense radiation.


Considering the original purpose of GENISIS Z.A.F.T was doing research into the use of Solar Sails, before the system was turned into a weapon. I think I'm starting to understand the development of the Destiny Gundam a little better now. The fact is there is another mobile suit probably involved with the Destiny's development. The suit I'm talking about is the ZGMF-X11A Regenerate Gundam. The Regenerate Gundam is equipped with lightwave pulse thrusters, which can absorb gamma-rays from GENISIS Alpha gamma-ray laser cannon. This allows the Gundam to travel at high speeds.

I'm under the assumption that's the missing link to the Destiny Gundams variant "Voiture Lumiere" Propulsion System. The problem with the Regenerate Gundam is that is was big being stated as the tallest mobile suit until the Arrival of the Destroy Gundam. Z.A.F.T probably had issues with downsizing the lightwave pulse thrusters to mobile suit size.

In practice they changed the way the Voiture Lumiere propulsion system works. Instead of firing a laser into the system, Z.A.F.T designed the variant "Voiture Lumiere" of the Destiny to absorb Gamma-rays from systems like GENISIS and Neo-GENISIS. That means the Destiny Gundam was intended or planned to be used as Defense mobile suit for Messiah. It also gives a reason why the Destiny is never seen with any sort of speed boost the system claims to give the Destiny. Previously stated that the ultracompact hyper deuterion nuclear reactor wasn't perfect, and it didn't supply an unlimited form of power. This system is probably very power consuming, so even if the Destiny was to use it the suit power supply couldn't handle using the system for long periods of time. Though this is all just speculation on my part.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 3:50 pm 
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Lightwave pulse thrusters are used on the GINN High Maneuver Type though. Also METEORs, but they are rather large. There's no indication they can use an external projection system for a boost however. DSSD's Astrays special propulsion system heavily resembles (and is somewhat described like) lightwave pulse thrusters, so it's definitely the logical technological predecessor, and there really should not be a big surprise that Stargazer, Destiny, and Strike Freedom should all have Voiture Lumiere in some form considering their builders all had access to something like them.

Regenerate is usually brought up in regards to Impulse for being able to swap out parts and the deuterion beam system and its main weapon is the closest thing to Destiny's cannon ZAFT has otherwise made though, so it's definitely significant.


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