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 Post Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:37 pm 
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Mecha Flunky

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Facts:
- during C.E. 73 ZAFT developed next generation of their previous very successful models (Freedom,Justice,Providence)
- Chaos,Gaya,Abyss,Proto Saviour,Strike Freedom,Infinite Justice/schematics maybe early prototype were stolen during that time
- S.F. was already operational in C.E. 73 (Test flight short time after the armory one event)
- I.J. was at least completely designed in C.E. 73
- Zaku Providence was also completed during that time
- no reliable power source was found for WoL System for any of the Impulse/Destiny Shilouete yet it was still used in Destiny, also in the MG kit materials it is specified that Destiny had a number of other issues
- Comparing the weapon system of the deutronium beam gen MS like Abyss,Chaos etc. Desitny's weapons seem like a step backwards maybe even out of place
- Destiny is the only MS that carries a standard shield (it might point to the fact that it was equipped with an less reliable version of beam shields, I.J. is equipped with an entire system build arround the shield)
- Compared with the amount of weapons the other 3 have it seems Destiny is a step backwards, also the heavy sword/cannon kind of defeat the purpose of light weight frame the MS is build arround
- the standard propulsion system seems to point at a MS from Freedom's (ZGMF X10-A) generation (leg and mai thrusters) rather then S.F.'s generation

Is Destiny just a test platform pushed into combat just to show ZAFT was not behind with their production capabilities due to their incompetence (to guard their top of the line standard and nuclear models) ?
(I know Destiny was created during gundam seed but lost to Freedom and was not included in the show I am only talking plot wise)


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:56 am 
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Destiny MSV seems to blame destiny impulse's frequent need for charging on the beam weapons and not due to WoL. In the chinese translation of the MS manual i have seen, the problems mention are production cost and maintenance issue due to the structural complexity needed to obtain the required performance. These seems to be a common issuses among specially created ace units

phy-sx wrote:
Comparing the weapon system of the deutronium beam gen MS like Abyss,Chaos etc. Desitny's weapons seem like a step backwards maybe even out of place


care to elaborate?

phy-sx wrote:
Destiny is the only MS that carries a standard shield (it might point to the fact that it was equipped with an less reliable version of beam shields, I.J. is equipped with an entire system build arround the shield)


The beam shield in seed have a weakness. They can be penetrated by weapons that are resistant to beam attacks, e.g. Blue Frame's 2nd L's anti beam coated armour schneider. Destiny does not have a solid shield like IJ's might be because such a shield size may affect the welding of anti-ship sword.

phy-sx wrote:
Compared with the amount of weapons the other 3 have it seems Destiny is a step backwards, also the heavy sword/cannon kind of defeat the purpose of light weight frame the MS is build arround


The amount of weaponry should not affect a MS's effectiveness/performance much. The main issuse is the pilot's skill, state of mind, will, etc. Where did you get that destiny has a light weight frame?


phy-sx wrote:
the standard propulsion system seems to point at a MS from Freedom's (ZGMF X10-A) generation (leg and mai thrusters) rather then S.F.'s generation


How did you came to that conclusion????

As far as i know, Destiny is not a test platform pushed into combat to maintain ZAFT MS production capabilities. It just a MS created upon the chairman's order and has all the lastest and finest technologies.

phy-sx wrote:
I know Destiny was created during gundam seed but lost to Freedom and was not included in the show I am only talking plot wise


where did you hear that?


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:58 am 
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I don't think that Destiny was a test-platform though I guess that's a good way to rationalize it. It's really a poorly designed Gundam and that's that. Plot-wise, Dullindal was said to have looked at Shinn's fighting style and designed a Gundam specifically for him to fight as best as possible. However, it really didn't make sense since Shinn never fought with 1 Anti-ship sword and he hardly ever used the Blast Impulse. If Dullindal really had designed the Destiny with Shinn in mind then he would've focused more on high-speed combat since Shinn used the Force Impulse the most. That said, the WoL was a good touch but ultimately useless since Destiny wasn't any faster than I. Justice or S. Freedom.

I think the reason that the Destiny had that shield was to overcome the weakness that E08 indicated as well as to provide Destiny with some defence even if it happened to run out of power.

E08, I think he is referring to the image that was shown on 4chan or something of a Strike Gundam with a combination of all of the Striker packs. That image was apparently leaked around the internet during the time of Gundam SEED and was rumoured to be the original design for Freedom Gundam however it lost to the Freedom Gundam that we now know and love.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:54 pm 
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E08 wrote:
phy-sx wrote:
Comparing the weapon system of the deutronium beam gen MS like Abyss,Chaos etc. Desitny's weapons seem like a step backwards maybe even out of place


care to elaborate?

ZAFT managd to reduce the structural size of plasma beam weapons to fit the inner frame of an ms(Abyss, Chaos, S.F.) yet Destiny was still using an old type plasma cannon like Strike's same for the volume of the AS sword, Impulse had a more elegant version on it yet destiny still uses an bulky version, you can see in the animation that the weight of the sword hinders destiny's mobility in contrast Excalibur is much more lightweighted and easily handled by the Impulse.


E08 wrote:
phy-sx wrote:
Compared with the amount of weapons the other 3 have it seems Destiny is a step backwards, also the heavy sword/cannon kind of defeat the purpose of light weight frame the MS is build arround


The amount of weaponry should not affect a MS's effectiveness/performance much. The main issuse is the pilot's skill, state of mind, will, etc. Where did you get that destiny has a light weight frame?

That is actually not true and you can see this concept proven in modern fighters jets. The broader the weapons range the more tactical options the pilot has to deal with an combat situation. Ex. dealing with a high number of mid tier units the effectiveness would be reduced for destiny since it does not have an multitargeting system or the weapons to fire at multiple targets during an attack (you may argue that it compensates with speed but it is not changing the fact that it will attack in sequential order so it is a loss of effectiveness). All standard second gen machines except Impulse have a wide array of weapons then destiny. For the weight thing it was inappropriate to call the frame lightweight, I wanted to point to the reduced volume and weight of the frame and the weapons that in contrast to that have a considerable volume yet other second gen machines like abyss,chaos ... had compact weapons incorporated.

E08 wrote:
phy-sx wrote:
the standard propulsion system seems to point at a MS from Freedom's (ZGMF X10-A) generation (leg and mai thrusters) rather then S.F.'s generation


How did you came to that conclusion????

I noticed this by comparing MG Freedom Frame with that of MG Destiny, I know it is not rigorous but still it is a point to consider that they have the same look.

I know Destiny has a bad design, I am just trying to find some logic behind it being claimed to be the most advanced combat unit fielded by ZAFT even if the facts point otherwise.

Mod Edit (Red): Please don't double post, use the edit button instead.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 10:20 pm 
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Well, let's see...

1) While Destiny's beam cannon is an external weapon, it's also explicitly stated to be a long-range weapon, while the Callidus used by Chaos, Abyss, and Strike Freedom isn't. So though it has to be hand-aimed, it's made to be lightweight and easy to wield while being able to strike targets from a greater distance.

2) I don't think it's at all fair to say that the Arondight is bulky or unwieldy, especially since it's shown to be smaller and lighter than the Excalibur, and Shinn wields it quite effectively. The only time it "under-performs" is when Kira does the infamous blade catch.

3) You're trying to apply real-world fighter plane design ethics to fictional robots. I think that sentence right there is pretty much all I need to say.

4) Citing the design of the Master Grade models makes absolutely no sense, because the models were made several years after the show and they often add or change details in order to make it work better in three dimensions. For instance, the HGUC Gyan answered the question of how it could shift in front of the fist by adding in a hinged "strap", something that was never shown in its appearance in First Gundam.

5) You make quite a few assumptions with absolutely no evidence to back them up. For example, claiming that Destiny has a solid shield because its beam shields are inferior models, despite the fact that it has the exact same model of shield as Strike Freedom and the DOM Trooper. And I'd really like to know where you're getting this stuff about Destiny being deployed during SEED but losing out to the Freedom.

The real problem here is the fact that you're taking an opinion - namely, your belief that the Destiny Gundam is a bad design - and trying to prove it as fact. You're not even being subtle about it, accusing ZAFT of being incompetent and rushing an incomplete model into combat in the late stages of the war to save face. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but trying to say "My opinion is right and that's that" is the point where the trouble starts, and you should fully expect that every piece of "proof" you post is going to have plenty of responses from people like me who can easily take it apart.

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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:30 am 
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Well you need to look at the development of the Destiny in order to get an idea of where it came from, and in order to do that you need to look at the impulse. The Impulse itself is designed using data from the ZGMF-X12A Testament Gundam, before it was stolen, and the Zaku Splendor. The Testament Gundam was never designed as a combat mobile suit, as it was used by ZAFT to gain data on the Strike Gundam's striker packs. This is made obvious since the Testament Gundam and its spare unit the Astray out Frame both have striker pack hard points. Its most likely that ZAFT salvaged the discarded packs the Strike left behind, and used those to reverse engineering the striker hard points. From that data ZAFT creates it Wizard and Silhouette packs. The Zaku Splendor is used to test out the concept for Impulse's combining system.

With that said the Impulse mostly shares a lineage with the Strike Gundam due to its pack system. The Destiny Impulse is used as a test bed for the weapons and systems to be used on the Destiny Gundam. Given the previous statement about the Impulse being related to the Strike. Then its safe to say that the Destiny is related to the Strike since its developed from the Destiny Impulse, and the Impulse has a relation with the strike.

As for weapons the Chaos and Abyss probably use data from the Aegis "Scylla" beam cannon to create the "Callidus" multi phase beam cannon and "Callidus Kai" multi phase beam cannon. Even then by the names alone it sounds like ZAFT created the Abyss "Callidus" multi phase beam cannon first, and then refined the design to make the "Callidus Kai" multi phase beam cannon used by the Chaos. On the other hand the Destiny's weapons are based off of the Impulses, which in turn were based off the Strike Gundams. To say that the Destiny weapons are a further refinement of the Strike pack weapons. It similiar how the Sumbullet Raigo Gundam's "Agni Kai" hyper impulse cannon is a further refinment of the Launcher Strike's "Agni" hyper Impulse cannon. I think the flaw with the Destiny Gundam is that its too multi purpose, but if you look at the suit when it uses its sudo voiture lumiere system the suit is a high mobility mobile suit. Now that I think of it its funny how the Impulse Gundam shares its name with the Launcher strikes Impulse Cannon.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:37 am 
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phy-sx wrote:
ZAFT managd to reduce the structural size of plasma beam weapons to fit the inner frame of an ms(Abyss, Chaos, S.F.) yet Destiny was still using an old type plasma cannon like Strike's same for the volume of the AS sword, Impulse had a more elegant version on it yet destiny still uses an bulky version, you can see in the animation that the weight of the sword hinders destiny's mobility in contrast Excalibur is much more lightweighted and easily handled by the Impulse.


Handheld weapons are far easier to aim and perhaps easier to maintain than integrated weapons. As for Destiny's AS sword, it just an improved, longer version of Impulse's and Destiny frame is designed to weld it effectively.

phy-sx wrote:
That is actually not true and you can see this concept proven in modern fighters jets. The broader the weapons range the more tactical options the pilot has to deal with an combat situation. Ex. dealing with a high number of mid tier units the effectiveness would be reduced for destiny since it does not have an multitargeting system or the weapons to fire at multiple targets during an attack (you may argue that it compensates with speed but it is not changing the fact that it will attack in sequential order so it is a loss of effectiveness). All standard second gen machines except Impulse have a wide array of weapons then destiny. For the weight thing it was inappropriate to call the frame lightweight, I wanted to point to the reduced volume and weight of the frame and the weapons that in contrast to that have a considerable volume yet other second gen machines like abyss,chaos ... had compact weapons incorporated.


Like it or not, comparing modern jet fighters to MS does not work due to the differences in circumstances.eg. radar being useless. No matter the amount of weaponry on the MS, they are useless if the pilots cannot use them properly. Remember how easily Shinn took out Abyss? And where did you get the reduced weight and volume of the frame from? Compact weapons do not determine the effectiveness and power of an MS.

E08 wrote:
phy-sx wrote:
the standard propulsion system seems to point at a MS from Freedom's (ZGMF X10-A) generation (leg and mai thrusters) rather then S.F.'s generation


How did you came to that conclusion????

phy-sx wrote:
I noticed this by comparing MG Freedom Frame with that of MG Destiny, I know it is not rigorous but still it is a point to consider that they have the same look.


Heard of 'dont judge the book by its cover'? So what if the outer look is similar to a older generation? As the long as the internals and the performance is up to date that should be enough.

phy-sx wrote:
I know Destiny has a bad design, I am just trying to find some logic behind it being claimed to be the most advanced combat unit fielded by ZAFT even if the facts point otherwise..


TBH, that is just your opinion. There are people out who disagree and blame the lacklustre performance on Shinn. As for the facts you say, they dont seem to be pointing either way.

Interestingly the MG Impulse manual did not say anything about Testament, perhaps it is too obivous. ZAFT did indeed salvage striker packs and seems to have use them on Testament during testing. As for Impulse lineage, it gets a weird but acceptable twist from the MG maunal. Impulse's body seperation system and the deuterion beam recharging system are actually further development/inspired by similar systems in Regenerate. Since Regenerate uses data from Aegis, Impulse is thus link to both Strike and Aegis.

domino wrote:
Plot-wise, Dullindal was said to have looked at Shinn's fighting style and designed a Gundam specifically for him to fight as best as possible. However, it really didn't make sense since Shinn never fought with 1 Anti-ship sword and he hardly ever used the Blast Impulse.


Is that from the episode? i am too lazy to go watch it but according to the review on MAHQ, he just tell Shin that Destiny Gundam is tuned for him using Impulse Gundam's combat data.The MG manual also just simply state that Dullindal ordered the developmen of new MS. It was the developers who decides to make a new MS by combining the different Silhouette packs. However later it did states that Destiny's developer designed the armor system to fit Shinn's fighting style. The system continues to be tunned after Destiny is given to Shinn.

Perhaps, the request to design Destiny for Shinn came in after the weapon system is completed and the developers leave it alone as they think Shinn has no problem adapting to them.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:42 am 
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E08 wrote:
domino wrote:
Plot-wise, Dullindal was said to have looked at Shinn's fighting style and designed a Gundam specifically for him to fight as best as possible. However, it really didn't make sense since Shinn never fought with 1 Anti-ship sword and he hardly ever used the Blast Impulse.


Is that from the episode? i am too lazy to go watch it but according to the review on MAHQ, he just tell Shin that Destiny Gundam is tuned for him using Impulse Gundam's combat data.The MG manual also just simply state that Dullindal ordered the developmen of new MS. It was the developers who decides to make a new MS by combining the different Silhouette packs. However later it did states that Destiny's developer designed the armor system to fit Shinn's fighting style. The system continues to be tunned after Destiny is given to Shinn.

Perhaps, the request to design Destiny for Shinn came in after the weapon system is completed and the developers leave it alone as they think Shinn has no problem adapting to them.


All said and done, I think you guys give the Destiny way more credit than it's due. Compared to the other ZAFT super-Gundams, all that the Destiny has is a large gun and a large sword. Even its "Wings of Light" don't give it a speed advantage compared to the other ZAFT super-Gundams. Note that Infinite Justice (which has no Wings of Light) was able to keep up with it just fine so they could've saved research money and given Destiny a super booster pack and call it a day.

That's really the point that the OP is hoping to get to. Why would ZAFT consider a Gundam with a big sword and big gun to be such a technological achievement? It lacked many of the advancements in MS technology made in CE 73 and besides the WoL (which I already made clear was ineffective and only for show - and afterimages which confused NO ONE), it did use technology from CE 71. Sure the gun is called 'long-range' but was it ever used long-range? The most impressive use of that gun was when Shinn used it to one-shot multiple battleships as they lay dormant in the hangar of the Moon base. That's something that the Blast Impulse could've easily imitated. Heck....Buster Gundam was doing that in CE 71.

It's very hard to even try to identify the Destiny Gundam, its design and technologies as anything other than a badly executed idea that culminated in utter crap. Add that to the fact that the writers no longer wanted Shinn to have any piloting skill and the Destiny looked even worse than it had to.

P.S. Has anyone even noticed that even the Legend was designed worse than the Providence?


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 12:27 pm 
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domino wrote:

All said and done, I think you guys give the Destiny way more credit than it's due. Compared to the other ZAFT super-Gundams, all that the Destiny has is a large gun and a large sword. Even its "Wings of Light" don't give it a speed advantage compared to the other ZAFT super-Gundams. Note that Infinite Justice (which has no Wings of Light) was able to keep up with it just fine so they could've saved research money and given Destiny a super booster pack and call it a day.

That's really the point that the OP is hoping to get to. Why would ZAFT consider a Gundam with a big sword and big gun to be such a technological achievement? It lacked many of the advancements in MS technology made in CE 73 and besides the WoL (which I already made clear was ineffective and only for show - and afterimages which confused NO ONE), it did use technology from CE 71. Sure the gun is called 'long-range' but was it ever used long-range? The most impressive use of that gun was when Shinn used it to one-shot multiple battleships as they lay dormant in the hangar of the Moon base. That's something that the Blast Impulse could've easily imitated. Heck....Buster Gundam was doing that in CE 71.

It's very hard to even try to identify the Destiny Gundam, its design and technologies as anything other than a badly executed idea that culminated in utter crap. Add that to the fact that the writers no longer wanted Shinn to have any piloting skill and the Destiny looked even worse than it had to.


I think that you, like phy-sx are trying way too hard voice your opinion that you don't like the Destiny Gundam from your own personal view from watching the show without backing up credited info on why it "sucks" and inferior to previous suits. No offense, but this sounds like stuff said on /m/. Remember, this thread is for talking about the science and tech from in-universe rather than ours.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 1:34 pm 
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I am being very opinionated but I'm also sticking to the facts. I'd be a robot if I didn't express the facts with some form of an opinion.

That said, the only science brought up thus far has been to explain how the Destiny does what it does and the possible lineage of its technology. However, none of the explanations refute why it is a decidedly CE 71 Gundam. Rather than debase my opinion by comparing it to "/m/", what science or facts can you provide us from the CE universe that refutes anything that I've said?


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:04 pm 
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domino wrote:
I am being very opinionated but I'm also sticking to the facts. I'd be a robot if I didn't express the facts with some form of an opinion.

That said, the only science brought up thus far has been to explain how the Destiny does what it does and the possible lineage of its technology. However, none of the explanations refute why it is a decidedly CE 71 Gundam. Rather than debase my opinion by comparing it to "/m/", what science or facts can you provide us from the CE universe that refutes anything that I've said?


You're looking at the exterior of the suit and not the actual technology behind the suit, but I'll play. Let's take a look at the technology then. Warning wall of text immanent, so get a cup of your favorite beverage.

The Destiny is described as a multi role assault mobile suit. To that extent its weapons platform is designed to give the pilot a variety of options. Considering its classified as an assault mobile suit it is safe to say it be the first suit sent into combat. To that extent its long range beam cannon can be used to take out early warning and perimeter defenses. If the perimeter defenses include battleships then the suit has its ant-ship sword, if the suit can get in close enough.

I'm unsure of the palm cannon's range, but the weapon might indicate close range heavy fire power, or meant to be used as a last ditch weapon, similar to what the red frame could do, but on a more lethal level. Its beam rifle is meant for medium range combat, between other mobile suits. The beam boomerangs are designed to get at a suit behind obstacles, or can be used as short range beam daggers.

For defenses the Destiny has its solid shield for enemies that are known to have anti-beam coated weapons. In case the suit lost its solid shield it had its back up beam shield generators. The suit is equipped with variable phase shift for active defense against solid munitions. It also has its wings of light as a defense as well.

The suit is equipped with a ultracompact hyper deuterion nuclear reactor. The reactor stores power in deuterion form and then recharges itself. deuterion energy wasn't introduced in the Cosmic Era until the deployment of the Impulse, Chaos, Abyss, Gaia and Saviour Gundams in CE 73. To that extent we know the reactor doesn't supply an infinite amount of energy, since it has to return to the minerva to be recharged after being in the field for who knows how long.

To that extent the suit is equipped with variable phase shift armor, which is a further refinement of trans-phase shift armor. This version is more energy efficient since the power out put can be adjusted to the actual suit. Its also a Technoloy we don't see until CE 73 as its installed on the Impulse, Gaia, Abyss, Chaos, Saviour, Destiny, Legend, among other suits that are not of Z.A.F.T design.

The wings of light are described as being created by a variant of the "Voiture Lumiere" propulsion system. The "Voiture Lumiere" propulsion system is created originally for the GSX-401FW Stargazer a suit that wasn't completed until sometime during the war by civilian organization known as the Deep Space Survey & Development Organization (DSSD). To this extent the system is vary energy draining to the extent the suit needs to be equipped with a nuclear reactor. The Turn Delta is another suit that uses the "Voiture Lumiere" propulsion system. The turn delta shows that there is a speed boost to the system when it is used on a combat mobile suit, but again the suit needed a nuclear reactor to use it.

The variant of the "Voiture Lumiere" propulsion system is either created by Z.A.F.T, or its referencing the system that Lowe Guele created for the Delta Astray in CE 73/74. The Delta Astray "Voiture Lumiere" propulsion system can be considered a variant, because its the turn delta's system adjusted to work with an ultra compact battery. Its unknown how much of a speed boost this variant system gives, or if its even noticeable. This also means that the Destiny couldn't use the wings of light for long durations, or it risk running out of power.

The system is also created to create after images through mirage colloid. These after images was what I was referring to when I described the wings of light as a defense. These after images are not design to confuse human pilots, but rather targeting computers and guidance systems. Due to these after images the weapons aim for the after image and not the actual suit, which makes it less likely the suit will get hit. Manuel aiming would be hard to do, since the Destiny is supposedly faster when using its wings of light.

Beam Shield technology isn't introduced until CE. 74 with the introduction of the Destiny and Legend. I'm unsure of the specifics on this technology, since its also used by the Strike Freedom, Infinite Justice and Dom Trooper. I'm suspecting that there would of been some energy drain issues with the shield though, and that's why the destiny is equipped with a solid shield, along with previous stated reasons.

In conclusion the Destiny Gundam isn't a perfect mobile suit. I doubt Z.A.F.T really fixed the energy draining problems of the Destiny Impulse, and tried to compensate by using the ultracompact hyper deuterion nuclear reactor to compensate for any power differences. This fix seems to have only extended its operation time, but never gave it the infinite operation time the system was supposed to deliver. The Destiny also lacks a quick close range weapon in the form of a beam saber, but that's me being picky. Other wise the Destiny anti-ship sword acts as a two handed great sword, versus a medium or short sword. Its meant to keep mobile suits at bay, but its useless versus an agile opponent with a shorter sword. Even then the beam boomerangs aren't a dedicated close range weapon, and aren't designed to be used as such.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:11 pm 
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Well, the fact that it uses VPS, has a different power source than any CE 71 suit, has beam shields which previously only appeared on Hyperion and which ZAFT didn't have access to... Oh, and the WoL system is also new. It doesn't really matter that it's a gimmick that doesn't serve much functional purpose, it's still new. It also presumably cuts down on the required reaction mass but I'm not sure any source actually confirms that. Bottom line, whatever else you might think of Destiny it's not a CE 71 suit trying to compete in a CE 73 environment.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:22 pm 
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Again domino, the problem is that like phy-sx you're taking an opinion and trying to turn it into irrefutable fact. By doing so you're provoking a fight with people who disagree and have the proof to counter your assertions.

For instance, the beam cannon. No, Shinn doesn't use it at long range all that often, but that doesn't mean it's a bad or deficient weapon. It's just that his style of combat is based more around fast melee. The beam cannon is a long range weapon whether or not it's used that way, just like how the palm beam cannons are ranged weapons despite the fact that we only ever see Shinn using them to do a Domon impression. To quote Carl Sagan (among others), "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

Also, I'm really confused by your insistence that Destiny isn't advanced simply because its primary weapons are "big gun and big sword". Weapons aren't the only part of an MS, you know. The idea is that Destiny has the ability to play all three of Impulse's primary roles (high-speed flight, powerful melee, powerful range) all by itself. It's an all-around excellent performer, and of course there's the Wings of Light (bearing in mind that the WoL were Destiny's unique trait until they decided to give it to Strike Freedom too in one of their countless retcons).

Besides, if you're going to play that card, let's talk about how Destiny's weapons are all the cutting-edge, latest versions of ZAFT's various weapon "families", while Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice mostly have either identical or even earlier versions of weapons wielded by the Second Stage Gundams and even CE71-era machines like Providence.

You don't like the Destiny Gundam? That's fine, go ahead and fly that flag. But just understand that all you're doing right now is preaching to the choir; you're not going to change anyone's minds or win any converts with the arguments you're making here.

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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Evex wrote:
Even then the beam boomerangs aren't a dedicated close range weapon, and aren't designed to be used as such.


Actually, the beam boomerangs have been said to be able to double as a beam saber. IIRC, there may have been an animated scene of Destiny doing just that but I might be daydreaming.
Why did you take all of that time to explain each technology on the Destiny (and repeat some of my conclusions re: the solid shield) when that isn't the point? In fact, Arsarcana's reply puts it best when he says:

Arsarcana wrote:
It doesn't really matter that it's a gimmick that doesn't serve much functional purpose, it's still new


And that exactly how the Destiny's design comes off as. One big gimmick-y Gundam. Sure Shinn can slice apart the Alliance and ORB grunts using the Destiny's large-ASS sword but he was doing that just fine in the Impulse which is by far the more versatile and USEFUL Gundam. I actually think Dullindal should've just upgraded Shinn's Impulse so that it could utilize the Destiny silhouette and switch as necessary. Compared to the Impulse, the Destiny is jack-of-all-trades and king-of-none ie sub-par at a lot of things but doesn't excel at anything. This isn't just about Shinn's lack of skill and comes down to a few things:
1. The WoL doesn't give Destiny a speed advantage over anyone except for grunts. Actually, I think it outclassed Akatsuki but that's a CE 71 mobile suit. The Strike Freedom & Infinite Justice may have been given upgraded thrusters but that's never been stated so it makes Destiny's WoL look pathetic.
2. Destiny's ranged weapons are limited to a SINGLE large cannon which can be easily targeted by enemies (strange that it wasn't)
3. The gimmicky after-effects didn't fool anyone and Shinn had to resort to the beam shield very, very, very often
4. The Destiny's hand beam cannon is a dubious weapon at best considering that it already has a large melee weapon and two smaller melee weapons which all need to be hand-carried. Due to their short-range nature (if they can fire at all....it MIGHT have been shown in the animation in a BRIEF scene), they certainly don't help Destiny's ranged problems. In fact, when Kira took away Shinn's melee weapon, what was he gonna do to fight back? Boomerang him to death? Oops....the boomerangs were already destroyed. Oh and Kira could dodge and block the long-range beam cannon. Hmmm....

Compared to the Freedom (and Strike Freedom) and even the Lightning Striker, the Destiny SIMPLIFIES and REDUCES the capabilities of its parent Gundam (in this case, the Gundam) rather than including them on a Gundam so that they work harmoniously. The Destiny Gundam should've been more along the lines of the Lightning Striker or Freedom in my opinion.

You're all free to disagree with me but except for pilot skill, I don't see how the Destiny is any better than the Freedom or Lightning Striker. Forget about the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice because we all saw how that went.

EDIT: What's this nonsense about me provoking a fight? I have a strong opinion and I'm free to have that. We're talking about an anime here people. If anyone believes that they're in a "fight" with me then you're sadly mistaken about how to deal with opinions which differ from your own.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:45 pm 
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Oh boy, my (common) senses are telling me that domino is going to get warned and this thread going to be locked like many other threads pertaining to C.E.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 3:55 pm 
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This is the part where I remind everyone that their "strong feelings" are about a fictional giant robot from a poorly-written giant robot cartoon from Japan.

Take it down a notch. That goes for you too, domino.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:06 pm 
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No problem, Shadowcell. Like I said, it's not a fight. I wasn't trying to convince anyone either and I remain firm on my opinion for reasons above.

Anyway, referring to the OP topic, after further thought on my previous assessments and in comparison to other high-tier ZAFT Gundams then I do now understand why Destiny can be considered a test platform.....not saying that it was but the limited versatility certainly reflects a test platform.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:15 pm 
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I went over everything to try and explain the science of the C.E. universe and how each technology works. Well you can look at it this way, if you want. The destiny is prototype mobile suit, which makes it a test platform. This is said because most prototype mobile suits are built as proof of concept designs. It’s basically to test out whether certain technologies are usable in the next generation of mobile suits. Granted the Destiny does use technologies from previous mobile suits, but it does test out the variant "Votiure Lumiere" propulsion system, ultracompact hyper deuterion nuclear reactor and the beam shield generators.

You could counter argument it’s not a test platform because the Infinite Justice, Strike Freedom and Legend all used the same reactor. All those suits plus the Dom Trooper also had beam shields, and even the Strike Freedom had a variant "Voiture Lumiere" propulsion system. The thing is all those suits are test beds in themselves, since the technologies are used differently. The Infinite Justice beam shield is located on its shield, while the strike freedom and Dom trooper shield is located on the forearm. The legend and destiny beam shield are located on the back of their hands. Just because there are multiple suits using the same technology doesn't make it any less of a test bed.


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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 10:34 pm 
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Well if we take in to account the fact that the Destiny started out as an early freedom lineart plan. Destiny is basically zaft's version of the iwsp striker pack the first attempt was the Destiny Silhouette where it was discovered that it was an major power drain leading zaft to build an dedicated unit to mount the pack on.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:21 am 
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I'd have to agree on the Wings of Light being more of a defensive measure more than any sort of "speed boost". If anything, the "speed boost" seems more like an illusion BECAUSE of the after-images.

After all, that's what "mirage" means; an illusion that, in your mind, seems very real (at least until you're close enough or something to know otherwise). So a regular pilot/gunner trying to track the Destiny Gundam while it's utilizing its after-images generated by the Mirage Colloid particles would probably have a hard time "keeping up" because they'll probably be catching glimpses of the after-images left behind that disappear after just a second or two, thus promoting the illusion that the Destiny Gundam is moving at super-high speeds. The person's mind is simply tricked like that.

Because of such a thing, this would give the Destiny Gundam an opening to either shoot down the opponent(s) with its cannon, slice them apart with its beam boomerangs or Anti-Ship Sword, or get in closer and blow them away with its palm cannon. By the time they realize it, it's too late.

F91 first demonstrated such a thing with its armor-shedding against Iron Mask and the Rafflesia and Iron Mask constantly getting caught targeting one of the after-images, never able to actually hit the F91 itself, thus fooling even (neo)psycommu system weaponry because those are all based on the pilot's mind and brainwaves, which were fooled by the after-images.


But, in terms of the OP, as mentioned, even if several prototype MS use similar tech, HOW they use them, where it's used, and so on make them unique themselves, so with several MS using the same tech in different ways, one of them is bound to result in further development and possibly a mass production version that utilizes that result as it was seen as the most effective.

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