Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

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Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by BlackLion » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:48 pm

It seems that with each new issue of Glory of Losers, the early-type Gundams are gaining more weapons and options parts, and I feel like it's at the point where they are outperforming and out-gunning their own upgrades. With Sandrock's new Armadillo armor, Heavyarms' insane full weapon loadout, Shenlong's broadsword and more menacing dragon fang, Deathscythe's new wings and buster shield, their upgraded forms look even more barebones than before.

Should Katoki redesign or maybe modify his original EW designs to actually look like UPgrades? Can their performance really be that much better that they don't need but one or two weapons?

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by Amadi Akintunde » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:29 pm

Only suit I'd like to see redesigned is the Wing Zero Custom. Those wings are ridiculous.

Otherwise, I don't see much reason to redesign the EW Gundams. They're all fine as is.

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by Arsarcana » Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:41 pm

How about we wait until the in-universe explanation for the upgrades? Unless they radically change the story, the Gundams are all still going to be upgraded because they need it. For example, Deathscythe could be justified as needing better stealth and the armor effect of the wings more than it needs high mobility. Presumably there's going to be similar justification for why less is more for the remaining three (not counting Wing of course), at least as far as secondary weapons go. Precisely how they'll explain the complete lack of effective ranged weapons on Sandrock and Altron is the issue but I've no doubt they'll try to do it.

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by domino » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:34 am

I think we should definitely expect changes to the EW Gundams ver Ka if only because he's changing the original Wing Gundam designs. The in-universe explanation is for the Gundams to be better equipped but we all know that the real reasons for these mid-upgrades is to sell toys and use that extra flair to drive reader's interest.

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by E08 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:35 am

Since those are just options parts and weapons, the customs may be able to use them without any modification or slight modification. They may even get improved version of these equipments.

As for Deathscythe's new wings, maybe the Deathscythe Hell Custom's performance renders them useless. For the buster shield, i cannot remember but in the series did Deathscythe Hell ever use it against MD? Shenlong ver Ka's dragon fang only good point is that it still retains the flamethrower. The custom's version has a ridiculously long range and is better at tearing MS in 2. I suppose they can explain Sandrock's custom lack of range weapon by saying the rife got destroyed during the war.

i also feels that WZC's wings are weird but the MG's explanation made it more acceptable.

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by Seraphic » Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:27 am

The EW Gundams are fine. Katoki designed them to streamline the essence of their original concept. It's not like you can show off all those extra features in a single movie, anyway, right?

Besides, you have to remember that most of the Gundams were being shipped off to be disposed of right as the movie started. All their extra weapons and equipment would have likely either been in storage or--mostly likely--disposed of or destroyed before sending the Gundams off.
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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:43 pm

I think the thing a lot of people are missing is that Katoki has nothing to do with GotL. If you look at the lineart for the new equipment, it's all drawn on top of the existing lineart in a much rougher, sketchier art style. Expecting him to change his designs just to suit someone else's work is pretty silly; it'd be like expecting Mamoru Nagano to go back and redo the Hyaku-Shiki to make it look more like the Delta Plus.
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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by Deacon Blues » Tue Dec 20, 2011 3:51 pm

On the final page Okawara, Katoki and Ishigaki are all listed as the mecha designers. No other in-between change up is listed.

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by domino » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:02 pm

Seraphic wrote:Besides, you have to remember that most of the Gundams were being shipped off to be disposed of right as the movie started. All their extra weapons and equipment would have likely either been in storage or--mostly likely--disposed of or destroyed before sending the Gundams off.
I like that explanation since it's open-ended enough to explain away GOTL giving the upgraded Gundams any number of enhancements or none at all. Come on guys, we all know that the enhancements are only for cool-factor and the Gundams will pwn all of their enemies no matter what.

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by BlackLion » Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:08 pm

Seraphic wrote:The EW Gundams are fine. Katoki designed them to streamline the essence of their original concept. It's not like you can show off all those extra features in a single movie, anyway, right?

Besides, you have to remember that most of the Gundams were being shipped off to be disposed of right as the movie started. All their extra weapons and equipment would have likely either been in storage or--mostly likely--disposed of or destroyed before sending the Gundams off.
I was just wondering if those extra features we didn't see in the movie were going to be shown in the manga and possibly made official. I remember seeing in a hobby magazine when EW came out models of Heavyarms Custom with dual knives on its back, and Sandrock Custom still holding a submachine gun and a shield. It wouldn't make any sense to do away with perfectly good weapons for no reason, so I'm hoping they take your explanantion for their absence in the movie and show them during the series.

And yeah, I was under the impression Katoki was helping out with the manga since he just recently designed the EW version of Epyon after it started. I don't see any other reason for him to do so, since Epyon isn't exactly a most popular suit.

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:38 pm

Deacon: I thought those were just the credits for the show, since Okawara's only contribution to the series was the original Gundams (which of course aren't in this manga).

Blacklion: Epyon's pretty popular, actually. I think it's more likely that Bandai had Katoki do Epyon EW for the Master Grade rather than GotL's author asking him to do it for the manga.

Also, the models you mentioned were in the Gundam Weapons issue for Wing Zero EW, which came out in 2005. The models in those books rarely reflect upon the actual material; in this case, the modeler just took the 1/100 Blue Frame Second L's Armor Schneider knives and stuck them on Heavyarms Kai EW. You'll note he also gave it the Serpent's bazooka. Sandrock Kai did always have a shield, but it wasn't used in the animation; instead it first turned up in the 1/144 High Grade model kit, while the one in Gundam Weapons looks to just be a repainted version of Sandrock EW's.
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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by BlackLion » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:12 pm

AmuroNT1 wrote:Deacon: I thought those were just the credits for the show, since Okawara's only contribution to the series was the original Gundams (which of course aren't in this manga).

Blacklion: Epyon's pretty popular, actually. I think it's more likely that Bandai had Katoki do Epyon EW for the Master Grade rather than GotL's author asking him to do it for the manga.

Also, the models you mentioned were in the Gundam Weapons issue for Wing Zero EW, which came out in 2005. The models in those books rarely reflect upon the actual material; in this case, the modeler just took the 1/100 Blue Frame Second L's Armor Schneider knives and stuck them on Heavyarms Kai EW. You'll note he also gave it the Serpent's bazooka. Sandrock Kai did always have a shield, but it wasn't used in the animation; instead it first turned up in the 1/144 High Grade model kit, while the one in Gundam Weapons looks to just be a repainted version of Sandrock EW's.
Thanks for clearing that up for me, the magazine scans looked older than that. I guess I figured there wouldn't be any more Wing-specific merch being made at the time. I know the models were just kitbashes, but they were in-line with the style of the suits and I hope that a similar change is made to the Kai versions in the manga to round-out their weapon loadouts.

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:39 pm

Yeah, the ones in that book are mostly modifications of the old 1997-era High Grades, tho IIRC there were versions of the main four plus Epyon that were made using the Master Grade Wing Zero's inner frame. Since then of course, GotL has inspired Master Grades of Katoki's versions of the Gundams. Personally I'm holding out hope for a Master Grade Leo or Taurus.
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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by BlackLion » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:54 pm

AmuroNT1 wrote:Yeah, the ones in that book are mostly modifications of the old 1997-era High Grades, tho IIRC there were versions of the main four plus Epyon that were made using the Master Grade Wing Zero's inner frame. Since then of course, GotL has inspired Master Grades of Katoki's versions of the Gundams. Personally I'm holding out hope for a Master Grade Leo or Taurus.
I'd be fine with just High Grade OZ suits, especially Leo and Aries. Such wasted potential for those amazing designs. If only we had a HGAU line... but that's for the merchandise section I suppose.

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by Dark Duel » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:09 am

Amadi Akintunde wrote:Only suit I'd like to see redesigned is the Wing Zero Custom. Those wings are ridiculous.

Otherwise, I don't see much reason to redesign the EW Gundams. They're all fine as is.
This. The only exception I would make is that Sandrock should still have the SMG and shield.
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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by Raiden » Thu Dec 22, 2011 7:59 pm

BlackLion wrote:
AmuroNT1 wrote:Yeah, the ones in that book are mostly modifications of the old 1997-era High Grades, tho IIRC there were versions of the main four plus Epyon that were made using the Master Grade Wing Zero's inner frame. Since then of course, GotL has inspired Master Grades of Katoki's versions of the Gundams. Personally I'm holding out hope for a Master Grade Leo or Taurus.
I'd be fine with just High Grade OZ suits, especially Leo and Aries. Such wasted potential for those amazing designs. If only we had a HGAU line... but that's for the merchandise section I suppose.
Well HGAU lines already exist (HGFC for G and HGAW for X), they just need to make a HGAC line down the road, but Bandai seems to be fine so far just MG them. Wouldn't mind a number of stuff from Wing to be MG, but i don't want them to take up the entire freaking year so that they can make stuff from the other shows too.

But as for upgrading the "2nd Generation" Gundams, i would say they would only need minor things (Deathsycthe Hell some projectiles, Sandrock Kai its SMG, Heavyarms Kai a knife or a beam saber) but Wing Zero Custom (ver Ka.) doesn't need anything since its over powered as is.
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Amadi Akintunde wrote:Only suit I'd like to see redesigned is the Wing Zero Custom. Those wings are ridiculous.

Otherwise, I don't see much reason to redesign the EW Gundams. They're all fine as is.
This. The only exception I would make is that Sandrock should still have the SMG and shield.
Sandrock Kai did have a shield, but was never shown in the OVA or Compilation Movie. Your guess is as good as mine why they never included it.

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by domino » Tue Dec 27, 2011 10:49 am

Having read the referenced chapters, I really don't see why the OP believed that these add-ons in any way compare to the upgraded Gundams except maybe for Sandrock which was always a silly design (a heavily armoured, slow, melee-oriented suit with limited range weapons? really?) Even then, Sandrock seems to be using the resources from the Maguanac Corps better and is simply utilizing some of their own equipment by attaching it to its frame.

Deathscythe's "wings" are really just Duo's attempt to copy Wing's boosters and add aerial mobility to his Gundam. Shenlong's new sword doesn't make it anywhere as dangerous as its upgrade (eventhough I always thought that the Wing TV upgraded Shenlong was way better than the simplified EW upgrade). Heavyarms really isn't any different but then again it also really wasn't upgraded in the Wing TV or EW series either......just got another double-barrel gatling gun. Suffice to say, they're all just using add-on equipment.

If anything, I'd like to see the EW versions using more of the equipment that they had in the Wing TV series. Especially Shenlong (beam gun/stinger) and Deathscythe (dual buster shields).

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by Aegis » Tue Dec 27, 2011 3:18 pm

So this is the stuff I miss after being out of the series for a while. :P I also find that little to nothing about these new equipment should require the upgraded Gundams to be, well, 'upgraded', especially since most of the equipment come off as add-ons. The things I would rather see would be a transformable WZC complete with shield and beam cannon for Altron given THAT upgrade was supposed to be based off the Vayeate. DSH buster shield I'm more undecided. The rest they can keep them or ditch them. Also liking the Tallgeese Shiron.

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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by AmuroNT1 » Tue Dec 27, 2011 6:12 pm

Tallgeese Shiron isn't actually an upgrade, it's an entirely different model. It's the result of Master O trying to replicate Tallgeese by himself using a Leo as a base, and was intended to go to Wu Fei to mark his status as guardian of the Long Clan. It was first described in the Endless Waltz novel but wasn't named or shown until GotL. It also replaces and retcons the Tallgeese from Episode Zero, resolving the minor plot hole of where that thing came from.
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Re: Should Katoki Redesign His EW Gundams?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Tue Dec 27, 2011 9:53 pm

so this makes sense the Shiron is an leo upgraded to match the tallgeese prototype unit specs if anything it may have inspired the virgo II mounting the tallgeese rocket pods to upgrade it's mobility.

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