Axis Technology Provided to the AEUG?

[Gelgoog Jager]

I wanted to ask if there's any indication of the Argama and Rick Dias possibly being weapons designed, or even built by Axis, and provided to Quattro/Char, for his activities against the Titans?

Let's begin with the Rick Dias:

As I understand, the Rick Dias was built by Zeon engineers that work at Anaheim while the Gaza series was developed at Axis, namely the Gaza C and Gaza E.

However both MS have some rather unique traits not seen in other MS of the same generation:

-A fixed mono-eye sensor (can't move around unlike traiditional mono-eyes)
-Cockpit in the head.
-A main handheld weapon and two secondary beam weapons.

There's also the use of Gundarium Gamma alloy, which didn't became widespread among the AEUG forces as evidenced by the Nemo's Gundarium Alpha alloy.

Then we have the Argama:

I think this ship has more traits in common with the ships used by Axis/Neo Zeon, than with other AEUG/Federation ships:

-Single-barrel main gun turrets (most Federation ships have main double-turret main guns, and secondary single-barrel guns).
-Yellow hatches (first seen on the Pegasus class, but discontinued afterwards by the Federation. However they were seen again on the Gwanban, whose design was probably available since the end of the OYW, and unlike the Pegasus class it's still seen by 0087).
-Capability to attach and deploy a ballute.
-Minovsky Craft System (not seen on Federation ships since 0083, but known to be used by the Endra and Sadalahn class on 0088, and it's until 0096 that the Ra Calium begins testing a new MCS for Federation ships).

Also, unlike the Nahel Argama and Pegasus II, the Argama is notably missing the characteristic bridge antennas of the Pegasus class ships.

The Argama could very well be a middle step between the Gwanban class and the Endra class.

Could Axis have provided both of these to Char and the AEUG, who later used Axis technology to build other MS (Marasai, Nemo, Hyaku Shiki, etc.) and ships (Irish)?

[balofo]

Old Gundam mystery: the 0088 Neo Zeon ships are supposed to have Mega Particle Cannons inside those yellow circular hatches. In G Gen F the animations shows dual Argama ones in those hatches. But the Queen Mantha is shows launching from one of the in the anime...

[Xenosynth]

Besides it just being an animation error, theoretically, maybe the Neo Zeon ships didn't actually have any hangars or launchers to support a full size mobile armor, and they converted it into one for the Quin Mansa.

As for the Neo Zeon AEuG connection, since I don't know too much backstory, I thought the first time they actually cooperated was later on during Zeta Gundam. Not to mention, Haman herself, I don't know if she would actually provide weapons and whatnot to Char, at least not for free. It seems a bit odd. However, you do note some very good connections, Especially on the Argama, so maybe Char had some pull left with non-Haman Zeons or something. I dunno for sure though, as I don't know too much about the history of the Neo Zeons during the Z/ZZ era.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I don't know if it was stored in the same section, but in 0083 the Gwanzan seems to be the ship that was carrying the massive Neue Ziel.

Regarding Char's return to the Earth Sphere, although I don't know all the details, it would seem that he do was sent by Axis. After all, we do know that at the very least the AEUG negotiated with Axis in order to obtain Gundarium Gamma alloy.

[JEFFPIATT]

Axis sent char with an team to spy on the EFSF before there planed return to the earth sphere. it seem that part of the mission was to set up an underground supply chain and hand over tech to zeon supporters at AE. it just so happened that the EFSF was splitting in to two factions at the time and char with some of the axis advanced team joined the AEUG side and the rick dais was the first project built with axis tech and was given to the aeug side.

[toysdream]

I'll confess that I'm reflexively skeptical of this idea - I've never seen anything in the Japanese sources to suggest that the Rick Dias or Argama use any Axis technology, aside from Gundarium Gamma, and the Gundam GP02A has now provided us with a direct ancestor to the Dias. That old factoid about the Nemo using Gundarium Alpha alloy, meanwhile, hasn't been mentioned in the Japanese sources for many years now.

As for the Argama, I feel like a lot of these similarities have mundane production-side explanations. The Argama, Endra, and Gwanban were all designed by Mamoru Nagano. The use of Minovsky craft systems by the Argama and Endra, meanwhile, was apparently a last-minute decision to simplify the plotting of Gundam ZZ by bringing all the ships down to Earth, so it basically just affected the ships that were appearing in the series at that point.

According to the publications, the technology swap between Axis and Anaheim mainly concerned the linear seat and Gundarium Gamma alloy. From Entertainment Bible 2:

More or less in parallel with the prototype Mark II, Anaheim Electronics was developing its own more innovative mobile suit. During the war, this company had reaped huge profits by developing and producing mobile suits for the Principality forces, and thanks to backroom dealings with the Federation government it had escaped being seized by the military. After the war, it became an arms maker for the Federation Forces, while also agreeing to supply new mobile suits to the anti-Federation organization AEUG. Meanwhile, it also received technological support from the Zeon remnant force known as Axis who had fled to the asteroid belt. In exchange for the movable frame (in prototype form) and the linear seat system, Axis provided the technology to refine Gundarium Gamma.

On the other hand, Anaheim and the AEUG did know about the Gaza series. Also from EB2:

Knowing of the existence of the Gaza, Anaheim and the AEUG decided to introduce this transformable mobile suit concept into the so-called Zeta Project, a program to develop a high-performance mobile suit which would serve as a symbol of both organization.

It occurs to me that that structure and transformation process of the Methuss is actually a lot like the Gaza C. Since Anaheim ran into major setbacks during the course of the Zeta Project, forcing it to fall back to the simpler mechanisms of the Methuss, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they might have turned to the proven Gaza design at that point.

-- Mark

[saneman]

Would Char been a conduit, he must have known about the Gaza A,B and possibly C-types. Assuming he came to Earth early enough.

When did Char infiltrate the Earth anyway, 85, 86?

[Gelgoog Jager]

Regarding the Rick Dias, I didn't know about its relation to the GP02A, though I must admit there do seem to be some similarities. Leaving the head aside, I though that maybe the Rick Dias was built as a heavy version of the Galbaldy Beta.

I understand how the RL context would have pushed the need of MCS for the ships involved, and also how having a common designer could result in the physical similarities. The Argama doesn't seem capable of flying within the atmosphere during the Gryps war, so the MCS could have been a later addition.

As for the Gaza C, do we know when was its design completed? Even if the Rick Dias, isn't an Axis design, it still shares some very particular traits with the Gaza C and if Anaheim also based the Methuss transformation system on the Gaza C's, then we do have some grounds to believe that data of the Gaza C do was obtained before Axis' return to the Earth Sphere.

It occurs to me that maybe in exchange for the data on the Gaza C, Anaheim could have provided data on the Argama, which does have 2 features absent in the Gwanban, the MCS (if actually included in the Argam's design from the beginning) and the ballute system, which Axis would seek in order to eventually invade Earth.

So, even if not to the extent I originally imagined, I think there do are some aspects that do suggest that at very least the Axis designs, most likely provided by Char, do were taken into consideration at least for the Rick Dias. After all, I am under the impression that Haman did expect Char to join her upon returning to the Earth Sphere, and probably bring the AEUG to her side.

Finally, is there any background information on the Argama's development?

[Tangerine]

I heard bout Gp02 link to Rick Dias too but aside from design-wise, both machine has totally different purposes that I doubt aside from sharing some mechanical AE branded intestine, they have strong lineage connection at all.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I'm having a hard time finding similarities between the Rick Dias (or its prototype) and the Physalis, beyond both of them being heavy type MS. Even when comparing lineart of both MS drawn by Hajime Katoki (from the mahq profile of the GP02A MLRS and the MG kit manual of the Rick Dias), there's nothing beyond some general forms that could be used to try to relate them.

I suppose their relation could be in their internal mechanisms, rather than their exterior.

In either case, Harmony of Gundam would have been a good opportunity to make a GP02A variation that actually showed some common traits with the Rick Dias.

[toysdream]

I don't think the Japanese publications have been all that specific about what the Rick Dias takes from the GP02A; the MG kit manuals just say that "the basic frame, etc, were borrowed from Federation Forces ones," and it's only more recently that we've seen people pointing the finger specifically at the GP02A.

That said, we could probably identify a few similarities aside from the "heavy mobile suit" concept and the vague resemblance in silhouette (pointy head, chest shape, overall form of lower legs and feet). Both machines are inspired by the Dom series; both of them use the backpack for weapons storage, with the main thrusters located elsewhere. (Nagano's original design for the Rick Dias indicated that its boosters could also be mounted on the shoulders.) And according to the MG kit manual, the GP02A was originally intended as an assault type that would rush into enemy territory and use heavy weapons:

It could be said that the earliest design plan for the RX-78GP02 was a heavy mobile suit of the so-called Dom series. In other words, it was a traditional "assault/attack type" mobile suit, which used its strong armor and great firepower to penetrate deep into the enemy lines and attack their bases. Its ability to hover under gravity could be considered a vestige of this. Then, during the design process, functional armament variations were considered. These proposals included everything from armor-piercing and explosive shells, to multiple warhead shells that fired beam-diffusing scattershot or plasma leaders. In the course of such an investigation, it was in a sense only natural that the possibility of nuclear armament would be considered. After all, even the Zaku bazooka was capable of firing nuclear warheads.

So its eventual use as a nuke-delivery mechanism was just an outgrowth of a tactical role that was originally very similar to the Rick Dias.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

I just realized I had forgotten the one example that do could indicate a relationship with the GP02A: the Schuzrum Dias.

Much like the RX-78GP02A MLRS Type, the RMS-099B has back mounted weapons which do seem appropiate for an assault role.

I also find more easy to accept that both machines are externally inspired in the Dom, which basically introduced the heavy MS concept, while the Rick Dias's role is inspired in the Physalis.

[saneman]

What about Rick Dias and Dreissen? Has there been any connections between these two machines?

[AmuroNT1]

And according to the MG kit manual, the GP02A was originally intended as an assault type that would rush into enemy territory and use heavy weapons:

Aha, so that's where the idea for the MLRS Type came from.

Also, that blurb provides an amusing but logical explanation to why the GP02 has plasma leaders in Super Robot Wars 3.

[HalfDemonInuyasha]

It occurs to me that that structure and transformation process of the Methuss is actually a lot like the Gaza C. Since Anaheim ran into major setbacks during the course of the Zeta Project, forcing it to fall back to the simpler mechanisms of the Methuss, it doesn't seem unreasonable that they might have turned to the proven Gaza design at that point.

-- Mark

It does sort of make sense when you consider just how weak and clunky the frame of the Methuss was. I mean, the Gaza-C's transformation was very simplistic, but also pretty fragile in that it became useless after 100 transformations, IIRC.

[Wingnut]

100? I thought it was more like a half dozen.

[AmuroNT1]

What about Rick Dias and Dreissen? Has there been any connections between these two machines?

I think it's been established that the Dreissen's ancestor is the Rick Dom II.