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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:58 am 
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Ok, so I was wondering this recently during a re-watch of an episode or 2 of Wing for the heck of it.
Obviously we know Wing Gundam Zero's Zero system stands for.
Zero Emmotional Range Omission/Omitted

But in the case of Epyon it can obviously do the same thing as Wing Zero in terms of predicting probabilities and outcomes on the battlefield.

So did Epyon have a copy of the Zero system or was it another system with the same abilities?, what ever it was called?

Appreciate any answers guys.


Last edited by Mu La Flaga on Tue Sep 04, 2012 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:28 am 
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There are several theories about it, but I don't think there is a definitive answer. The Epyon's system has to at least be based on Gundam data, given the development timelines.

I remember parts of the dialogue where Heero and Zechs refer to both systems as "ZERO system" when they meet in battle after exchanging MS. Or was it just "the system"? It was something like:

Zechs (in Epyon): I see you've mastered the system.
Heero (in Zero): As have you.

In any case, they refer to it as the same, and technically, all that really matters is that the pilots perceive them to be exactly the same.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:06 am 
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Yeah, Heero specifically says Epyon's system is the same as the one in Wing Zero when he first encounters it and later on when Dorothy is controlling White Fang's MD units I'm pretty certain they said it was the Zero System she was using.

As for where Epyon's system came from, one can assume that Treize got the data he needed from OZ's attempts to study Wing Zero after they got their hands on it. Glory of the Defeated shows that Treize started to plan out the design of Epyon during the events of Episode 5. Since it threw that extra bit in there, the manga might provide more details about its construction and the system as the story goes on. We'll just have to wait and see.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:47 am 
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Arsarcana wrote:
Yeah, Heero specifically says Epyon's system is the same as the one in Wing Zero when he first encounters it and later on when Dorothy is controlling White Fang's MD units I'm pretty certain they said it was the Zero System she was using.

As for where Epyon's system came from, one can assume that Treize got the data he needed from OZ's attempts to study Wing Zero after they got their hands on it. Glory of the Defeated shows that Treize started to plan out the design of Epyon during the events of Episode 5. Since it threw that extra bit in there, the manga might provide more details about its construction and the system as the story goes on. We'll just have to wait and see.

I suspect that Treize had the idea for his ideal Gundam for some time (that shipment of gundanium that Heero shot down early in the series might have been for Epyon in fact) and the Zero system was a late addition to the mix once the data came in from the lunar base.

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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:56 pm 
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The Epyon wasn't the only OZ MS to feature the Zero System the Gundam Lucifer and the Wing Gundam Seraphim had the Zero System version 2.0 and Zero System version 2.5 and the Lemming Gundam had a feature based off the Zero System technology designed to send anyone near the MS into a berserk state.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:28 pm 
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Roche wrote:
The Epyon wasn't the only OZ MS to feature the Zero System the Gundam Lucifer and the Wing Gundam Seraphim had the Zero System version 2.0 and Zero System version 2.5 and the Lemming Gundam had a feature based off the Zero System technology designed to send anyone near the MS into a berserk state.

This coming from the most non-canon of the non-canon mangas. Sorry, I can't take that even with the whole salt shaker.

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:42 am 
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Wingnut wrote:
This coming from the most non-canon of the non-canon mangas. Sorry, I can't take that even with the whole salt shaker.


Well I can understand Tiel's Impulse has always been a problematic story in terms of fitting in cannon wise the only reason is because Gundams in it are the only other ones confirmed to have a Zero system.
What about Snow White Heero's Gundam in Frozen Teardrop did it get Zero system equiped to it I'm sure the Epyon Pai did since it's on;y change was the paint scheme.


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:02 am 
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Uhh, no, it's more the 'Doesn't have anyone from the original writing staff' issue that leads everyone to ignore it. Well, that and the fact that it was the Frame Astrays of its day. The same goes for the novel the Lemming comes from. Basically, they're potentially interesting but ultimately little more than officially sanctioned doujinshi. Although with that said, I think these MSV are the true 'Can we please forget these ever existed?' entries in the AC universe.


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:28 pm 
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Heero does also imply that Trieze might've fiddled with the system in his own way due to his own ideals with the whole, "I don't understand how that guy thinks" comment when he just traded it away to Zechs so easily. Also, Heero did seem to be in "conflict" with Epyon when using it too, yet Zechs takes to it quite easily as Heero does with Wing Gundam Zero (though he did have experience with ZERO first).

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:56 am 
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HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
Heero does also imply that Trieze might've fiddled with the system in his own way due to his own ideals with the whole, "I don't understand how that guy thinks" comment when he just traded it away to Zechs so easily. Also, Heero did seem to be in "conflict" with Epyon when using it too, yet Zechs takes to it quite easily as Heero does with Wing Gundam Zero (though he did have experience with ZERO first).

I got the impression that Heero was just talking about Treize directly, or as I call him sometimes, Professor Chivalry. Epyon was supposed to be Treize's embodiment of chivalry and "being a loser" which was probably what didn't sit well with Heero. Heero doesn't seem to be one to mind under-handed tactics (if he's the one doing them) and doesn't seem to need the people's sympathy to do whatever he is doing. But yeah, I'm sure all that flowery, frilly stuff appeals to Zechs just fine, so that's why they felt Epyon was more for him. (Though I always thought Epyon was more awesome in Heero's capable hands.)

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:50 am 
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Treize got the ZERO System data roughly around episode 26. After Trowa's apparent death, Quatre and Heero get captured by OZ, only to be rescued by the Treize Faction; this is where we get the scenes of them testing the System under the supervision of the Gundam Engineers. The Treize Faction soldiers then sent the data (and presumably a copy of the System) along to Treize.

Tiel's Impulse I'd consider shaky canon, even if we didn't get into all the debate over what Japan uses in place of canon. It's just filler material for a plamo customization book, and parts of it make no sense or contradict what we know to have happened (DS Guilty and Sandleon end up with parts from Hydra and Aesculapius, when OZ would have had no way of doing so, least of all in the tight one-month timeframe between G-Unit's ending and TI's start).

Also, if what I've found in all my random digging-around is correct, the Duo sidestory novel with the Lemming is just the author doing a riff on an episode of Ultraman (and yes, a specific one rather than just "This is what an Ultraman plot would be like in Gundam", which puts it even further into question.

And yeah, the variants are pretty silly. It gets even weirder when you notice things like a Deathscythe with funnels or a Shenlong with nukes...

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 3:52 pm 
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AmuroNT1 wrote:
Treize got the ZERO System data roughly around episode 26. After Trowa's apparent death, Quatre and Heero get captured by OZ, only to be rescued by the Treize Faction; this is where we get the scenes of them testing the System under the supervision of the Gundam Engineers. The Treize Faction soldiers then sent the data (and presumably a copy of the System) along to Treize.

Yeah I always assumed they copied the system for Epyon and then modified the A.I. so that it was more along Treize line of thinking.

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Tiel's Impulse I'd consider shaky canon, even if we didn't get into all the debate over what Japan uses in place of canon. It's just filler material for a plamo customization book, and parts of it make no sense or contradict what we know to have happened (DS Guilty and Sandleon end up with parts from Hydra and Aesculapius, when OZ would have had no way of doing so, least of all in the tight one-month timeframe between G-Unit's ending and TI's start).


The parts from Gundams in G-Unit being used to upgrade those Gundams TI's was the first thing that me think it really didn't fit well.
And even though it isn't canon there was a 3rd gundam using a Zero system in Tiel's Impulse the T'ien-Lung Gundam which was based off of Altron Gundam had one which it used to control the Capricorn MD.

Quote:
Also, if what I've found in all my random digging-around is correct, the Duo sidestory novel with the Lemming is just the author doing a riff on an episode of Ultraman (and yes, a specific one rather than just "This is what an Ultraman plot would be like in Gundam", which puts it even further into question.

And yeah, the variants are pretty silly. It gets even weirder when you notice things like a Deathscythe with funnels or a Shenlong with nukes...


Well that's interesting about the sidestory involving the Lemming and the GW variants are down right crazy although the Deathscythe with funnels also had a Zero System I'm guessing it would need it to control them.
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w-msv/xxxg-01db.htm


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:47 pm 
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It's never been confirmed that there's any AI component to the ZERO System, or really anything in After Colony aside from the Mobile Dolls. (I don't count the reference to ALICE since it's just an Easter Egg.)

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Not really, technically speaking any computer system capable of making a choice based on given information is using AI. Every single Gundam Universe -requires- some degree of AI (AMBAC, systems to translate control input into intuitive actions, adapting to terrain variance, picking out a target visually)

The ZERO System is very specifically stated to "predict enemy action" and "suggest battle tactics" both functions that require fairly advanced AI. It isn't at all far-fetched that Trieze could have altered the decision making heuristics to line up with his way of thinking. Of course because Gundam Wing is Soft Sci-Fi they don't go into details so we can't know if the systems are the -exactly- same or slightly different.

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 6:39 pm 
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Sume Gai wrote:
Not really, technically speaking any computer system capable of making a choice based on given information is using AI. Every single Gundam Universe -requires- some degree of AI (AMBAC, systems to translate control input into intuitive actions, adapting to terrain variance, picking out a target visually)

The ZERO System is very specifically stated to "predict enemy action" and "suggest battle tactics" both functions that require fairly advanced AI. It isn't at all far-fetched that Trieze could have altered the decision making heuristics to line up with his way of thinking. Of course because Gundam Wing is Soft Sci-Fi they don't go into details so we can't know if the systems are the -exactly- same or slightly different.


Well that was my general thought, that in order for the Zero system to do combat analysis and tactical suggestions it's going to have posses an AI to do decision making and that program could be altered. From what we have seen I would guess the Zero system has more in common with real world AI then what people typicially think of as AI thanks to Sci-Fi they usually think of Data from ST:TNG or HAL from 2001: A Space Odyssey.


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