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 Post subject: Gundam SEED-ZAFT Gundams
 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:34 am 
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Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend

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1. Did ZAFT copy the general appearance of the EA Gundams for the Freedom, Justice and Providence as an intimidation tactic (i.e. we can make Gundams too) or was there another reason why their Gundams look like EA Gundams?

2. Given that the Abyss, Gaia and Chaos are all transformable Gundams then wouldn't it have made sense for the Impulse to also be a transformable Gundam rather than a ZAFT-version of the Strike? The name "Impulse" alone makes me feel like it should be some form of assault Gundam and not general-purpose/mission-adaptable.

3. Kira stole the Freedom Gundam but who was the original pilot? Justice was obviously for Athrun and Providence was definitely for Rau but what about Freedom?

4. It seemed that ZAFT did excessive testing of prototypes for Chaos, Gaia and Destiny but what about any prototypes for Strike Freedom? Also, is there any info on the pilot of a S. Freedom prototype, if it existed?


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:36 am 
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Out of order:

The Impulse was before the Abyss, Gaia and Chaos. It was decided that the specialist sea/land/space backpacks would instead be made into actual MS instead. This information is of course only found in the manga.

ZAFT may have initially copied the EA/Orb designs simply because it was faster than designing a complete new unit from scratch. They already had the general specs of four of the original Gundams, and they probably didn't mess with a lot of the interior design just because it was faster to leave it alone. Interesting that the GuAIZ came out at the same time or after the Freedom and Justice; sort of proves my point. There was the DEEP Arms or some such MS, which was like prototype of the Justice and Freedom, but that was likely just a weapons test-platform based on the GINN rather than a whole new MS.

No idea about the original pilot of the Freedom, I'm sure some manga somewhere has mentioned the person.

Chaos had Proto-chaos, Saviour had Proto-Saviour, but I don't think Abyss and Gaia got their own prototypes. And the whole business about Strike Freedom, well I've never properly understood where it came from. Was the unit stolen by Terminal or was it simply the design that was stolen, and then Terminal built it? I have no idea. It is quite possible that the Strike Freedom never had a ZAFT-nominated pilot, especially if ZAFT never took it beyond the design stage.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:59 am 
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2. Impulse is in a way transformable you know... Not to mention that the MG maunal links it to Regenerate, which can be linked to Aegis. Personally, i see Impulse as the combination of Testament and Regenerate.

3.Freedom MG manual speculate that Yzak is a likely candidate.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:05 am 
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1. If you look at them closely, only the head and color scheme of those ZGMF-X units that similar to EA Gundams. Their body design are actually closer to ZAFT MS. Just look at Justice's legs, very much the same feel with DINN or CGUE. So no, their overall design (including the frames) are unmistakably ZAFT original design with stolen technology applied. And Gundam-type head, for some reason. We know out-of-universe reasoning for that, but I never heard any in-universe explanation.

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:16 am 
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reeoyuy wrote:
1. If you look at them closely, only the head and color scheme of those ZGMF-X units that similar to EA Gundams. Their body design are actually closer to ZAFT MS. Just look at Justice's legs, very much the same feel with DINN or CGUE. So no, their overall design (including the frames) are unmistakably ZAFT original design with stolen technology applied. And Gundam-type head, for some reason. We know out-of-universe reasoning for that, but I never heard any in-universe explanation.


I see what you mean by Justice's legs but you've defeated your own point by mentioning the Gundam-type heads (which are definitely EA design) and the fact that the Freedom's legs are also definitely copied from EA design. One might argue that the wide shoulders were ZAFT design but the Druggie Gundams also featured such design elements. Even colours-wise (Freedom & Providence) and the shift from the atypical smooth arms to the blocky arms of the EA also disassemble your point. Sorry.

I'm kinda thinking that since the Providence was made specifically to take advantage of Rau's newtype abilities then he was closely involved with the design and development of the said Gundams. Maybe he suggested the use of EA design as a kind of f$ck you to the EA and that's why even his Gundam has colours similar to the Strike


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:26 am 
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domino wrote:
I see what you mean by Justice's legs but you've defeated your own point by mentioning the Gundam-type heads (which are definitely EA design) and the fact that the Freedom's legs are also definitely copied from EA design. One might argue that the wide shoulders were ZAFT design but the Druggie Gundams also featured such design elements. Even colours-wise (Freedom & Providence) and the shift from the atypical smooth arms to the blocky arms of the EA also disassemble your point. Sorry.

When I said "So no, their...", I was actually rejecting Izayuukan's claim that ZAFT copied interior design of EA Gundams (forgot to quote him). I won't deny that their head and color scheme are atypical of ZAFT MS.

I disagree with some of your opinion however. For the legs, you sure that Freedom legs copied from EA design? Yes, unlike Justice it has flat, non-pointy feet but so does GINN. And look at Strike's legs, they have part of inner frames jutting out and most importantly, the lower legs are straight. Freedom however, has its lower legs curved to the front like CGUE. The arms too, Strike is definitely blocky but not Freedom. Compare Freedom's arms with DINN. Similar slim and curvy shape; Freedom is less curvy but nowhere near as bulky and angular Strike. Still all those details got unnoticeable because those ZAFT Gundams sport EA Gundam-style head and paintjob. And thus we conclude ZAFT copied everything.

And let's not bring up the Druggies because the one that stolen by ZAFT are initial GAT-Xs. Druggies MSs have nothing to contribute to ZAFT MS development, or there's even a possibility that Druggies MSs might took some design elements from captured ZAFT MS.

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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 11:53 am 
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I don't see your points, reeoyuy. You've nitpicked the designs and looked for the smallest similarities (ignoring that Strike's legs also "curve" forward) in order to say ZAFT didn't copy what LOOKS like copies? Ok....

Aegis also has huge shoulders and that's from the GAT-X line. Really, I can't begin to see your point. It's obvious that the ZAFT Gundams were copied. How much? Well....let's not debate that by nitpicking if you don't mind.

I'd like to know everyone's opinions on why and maybe even an official explanation.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:02 pm 
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domino wrote:
what about any prototypes for Strike Freedom? Also, is there any info on the pilot of a S. Freedom prototype, if it existed?

According to the MG SF manual, it did exist and it was test-flown by ZAFT around the time of the Armory One raid.
No information as to who its original test pilot was exists, and it was stolen by the Clyne Faction and tuned for Kira's use soon afterwards.

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 Post Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:16 am 
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domino wrote:
I don't see your points, reeoyuy. You've nitpicked the designs and looked for the smallest similarities (ignoring that Strike's legs also "curve" forward) in order to say ZAFT didn't copy what LOOKS like copies? Ok....

Aegis also has huge shoulders and that's from the GAT-X line. Really, I can't begin to see your point. It's obvious that the ZAFT Gundams were copied. How much? Well....let's not debate that by nitpicking if you don't mind.

I'd like to know everyone's opinions on why and maybe even an official explanation.

I should have worded myself better. First of all, I wasn't trying to answer your question (sorry for that). I just want to point out that other than head and paint scheme, ZGMF-Xs are very ZAFT-ish in design. Someone claimed that those Gundams are copied from EA down to its interior designs, I just want to straighten out that it's not the case. See, like I said I was NOT responding to you. But then you seems to share the same misconception about the limbs and other parts other than the head, so I have to point out that to you too.

EDIT: I bold the important part that I actually mentioned before in my first post and you seem to miss or misinterpret that post as "everything including the head is ZAFT original design, so no, you're wrong". That's where our misunderstanding began, when I never really said that nor deny that they are copied.

See, I admit they're copied. It's very obvious; they look like ZAFT MS but with Gundam head and some other elements copied from EA Gundams. How much exactly? I don't know. Makes sense for ZAFT to make them like that? Logically, not. Then why? I don't know. Sorry for not contributing to your thread, but at least I can shoot down "they're like that because ZAFT copied everything from EA Gundams including all their interior and not just the head" argument.

Two things for final nitpick (I just want to), this is what I mean with "legs curved forward". And regarding shoulder armor, it's a matter of functionality not design style. It's big if there are something to stuck there, like thrusters in case of Freedom, Providence, Raider, and Calamity. As for Aegis, that shoulder armor is designed to match knee armor look in MA mode when the arms turned to similar shape as the legs. I don't understand why you brought up shoulder armor because I don't see any distinct style from both factions.

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:45 am 
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Its most likely due to treaty reasons that the Impulse is more of a variable mobile suit then a specialized one. Its actually explained in Astray Destiny that the original test pilot for the Abyss became its designated pilot, much like how shin was the designated/test pilot of the Impulse. The problem is that the person dies when armory one is attacked by phantom pain. He's literally in the hangar when they perform there gundam jacking. I believe he's the guy who hits the alarm, before he dies.

Due to the units being mentioned I'll give a brief rundown of ZAFTs MS development. After four out of the five original GAT X units are stolen ZAFT develops the CQUE DEEP Arms in order to begin development of there own beam weapons. The Guiaz is actually produced before the Freedom, Providence, and Justice. A modified Guiaz called the Guiaz Experimental Firearms Type is used to test the Freedom and Justice weapons. At the same time the Dreadnaught Gundam is used to test the Neutron Jammer canceler and ZAFTs Dragoon system. You'll notice there is sort of a gap in ZAFTs mobile suit roster, when it comes to MS Development.

This actually factors into the Impulse Gundam and the Zaku Warriors/Phantoms. The suit I'm referring to is the ZGMF-X12A (RGX-00) Testament Gundam and ZGMF-X12 Gundam Astray Out Frame. The outframe was originally used for spare parts for the Testament Gundam. The Testament Gundam was designed by ZAFT so that they could better understand how the strike worked, or more specifically how its packs worked. Before the suit was stolen by Phantom pain, or some branch of the Earth Alliance. The Data from the test with the Testament Gundam would be used to create ZAFTs Silhouette and Wizard pack technology. The impulses transformation system was testing by using the ZAKU Splendor, which means that both the Zaku Warrior, Zaku Phantom and wizard pack technology was all ready in use by ZAFT during the Impulse Gundams development.

As for the Freedom and Justice being copies of Earth Alliance technology I would say they aren't. The EA prototypes use a 90 degree cockpit system, from what I can tell both from animation and pictures of the cockpit, the Freedom and Justice both use a 180 degree style cockpit. Both suits are also equipped with ZAFTs Neutron Jammer Cancelers and nuclear fission reactors. The Freedom's HIMAT wings seems to be an extension on the Dinns backpack, while the Fatum-00 used by the Justice seems based on the guul ZAFT uses. At this point ZAFT has all ready developed its own beam rifles with the Guiaz being the first unit fielded with them. The beam saber technology is more or less probably a refined version of what the Bucue and Lagowe used. The meteor units both suits use are also ZAFT original tech.


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:22 pm 
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Quote:
Its actually explained in Astray Destiny that the original test pilot for the Abyss became its designated pilot, much like how shin was the designated/test pilot of the Impulse. The problem is that the person dies when armory one is attacked by phantom pain. He's literally in the hangar when they perform there gundam jacking. I believe he's the guy who hits the alarm, before he dies.

Although Wikipedia is horribly inaacurate, it says this about the Abyss's test pilot:
Quote:
Mare Strode [GSDA]
Coordinator; test pilot for the ZGMF-X31S Abyss, and becomes jealous of Shinn Asuka; hates the Naturals; after the test he was chosen as the Abyss's formal pilot, but during the Armory One incident he is severely injured by Stella Loussier. Around the time of the Junius Seven drop, he pilots a Destiny Impulse unit.


So it's possible he didn't die after all.

But it is a good question why ZAFT didn't, for example, change the Gundam head by Destiny into something that fits their monoeye-theme better. There doesn't seem to be an in-universe explanation for this, but rather we have to look for it outside: Gundam looks like Gundam, the end.

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:40 pm 
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He didn't die? He even piloted a Destiny Impulse later?

Is that in Destiny Astray?


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:18 am 
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As far as I know the Destiny Impulse is only in the Seed Destiny MSV. This is a portion of the Destiny Impulse history from Gundam Wiki. Apparently mare strode didn't die in the armory one attack.

Quote:
Due to the high power consumption of the pack, it was never used in battle by the standard Impulse. However, during the course of the Second Bloody Valentine War, three additional units of the Impulse were built, each being equipped with a more advanced version of the Destiny Silhouette. Unit 1 was purple, white, and pink, Unit 2 red, white, and purple, and Unit 3 blue, white, and grey. The first (Unit 01) was eventually piloted by test pilot Mare Strode. Equipped with the Destiny Silhouette, the Silhouette was instead captured by the ZGMF-X12D Astray Out Frame D during a chance encounter with the Junk Guild. Mare's unit was then forced to retreat. Another unit (Unit 03) was piloted by Courtney Heironimus during the final battle near Mobile Space Fortress Messiah, also equipped with a Destiny Silhouette. The fate of the pilot and Unit 2 is so far unknown.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:00 am 
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Yap, Mare Strode survived the attack and his piloting of destiny impulse take place in Destiny Astray photo-novel. Thanks to the MG manuals, there is also a destiny impulse Unit 4. All 4 units are put into combat. Never heard anything about the destiny pack being improved though.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:33 pm 
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Ah the ye old photo novels. That explains why I didn't know anything about the Destiny Impulses appearance. I was looking over ZAFTs Gundam development and these are the units that I've found, or at least connected to the development. I'm calling ZAFTs first set of Gundams First Stage units, since they call the next generation second stage.

First Stage

YFX-600R GuAIZ Experimental Firearms Type
YMF-X000A Dreadnought Gundam
ZGMF-X09A Justice Gundam
ZGMF-X10A Freedom Gundam
ZGMF-X11A Regenerate Gundam
ZGMF-X12A (RGX-00) Testament Gundam
ZGMF-X12 Gundam Astray Out Frame
ZGMF-X13A Providence Gundam

Second Stage

ZGMF-X3000Q Providence ZAKU
ZGMF-X101S ZAKU Splendor
XMF-P192P Proto Chaos
ZGMF-X56S Impulse Gundam
ZGMF-X56S/α Force Impulse Gundam
ZGMF-X56S/β Sword Impulse Gundam
ZGMF-X56S/γ Blast Impulse Gundam
ZGMF-X56S/δ Chaos Impulse
ZGMF-X56S/ζ Gaia Impulse
ZGMF-X56S/ε Abyss Impulse
ZGMF-X56S/θ Destiny Impulse
ZGMF-X88S Gaia Gundam
ZGMF-X31S (RGX-02) Abyss Gundam
ZGMF-X24S (RGX-01) Chaos Gundam
ZGMF-YX21R (RGX-04) Proto-Saviour
ZGMF-X23S Saviour Gundam
ZGMF-X42S Destiny Gundam
ZGMF-X666S Legend Gundam

Unsure if Related

ZGMF-X19A ∞ Justice Gundam
ZGMF-X20A Strike Freedom Gundam

From what I can figure out it seems the ZGMF-X11A Regenerate Gundam might be the beginning steps of the Destiny Gundams variant of the "Voiture Lumiere". I say this because the Regenerate Gundam is equipped with lightwave pulse thrusters. Basically by absorbing energy from Genesis Alpha's gamma-ray laser cannon the suit could increase its own speed. Based on this I'm guessing ZAFTs variant "Voiture Lumiere" works by absorbing solar winds possibly solar rays when active, which allows for the increase in speed when the system is active.


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 Post Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:13 pm 
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I should point out that strictly speaking, Astray Out Frame is a Junk Guild mobile suit built from spare parts of the Testament, not a separate ZAFT mobile suit.

There is some ambiguity regarding the last two, but both MG kit manuals describe them as ZAFT designs that were stolen and refined by Terminal. In the case of the Strike Freedom, they stole the prototype and tuned it for Kira's use; in the other case they stole the base design data, altered it and built it on their own.

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 10:10 am 
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Regarding chaos, gaia and abyss impulse, the more i think about how they are portrayed in the manga and photonovel, the more i feel they are just 'what if' units based on Courtney's interpretation of how impulse will developed.

As for strike freedom and infinite justice, even though they maybe based on ZAFT designs, the description in the MG/PG manuals give me the impression that the final product is very different from the original designs and should be considered Terminal designed units.

How ZAFT acquired the "Voiture Lumiere" system is indeed a mystery... The MG manual seems to suggest that ZAFT obtained the basic technology from somewhere(not from DSSD though, they refuse to share the data with ZAFT) and developed it into the system used in Destiny independantly. Phantom pain report indicates that the basic technology has been around for some time and was developed by DSSD's precursor. Perhaps that's where ZAFT obtained the basic data from?

The lightwave pulse propulsion system is credited as the inspiration for the deuterion energy transfer system. Anyone know where the claim that there are 3 Destiny impulse units came from?


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:09 pm 
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It might have been implied in Delta Astray that Durandal got the technology from the Martians.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:06 pm 
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Looking over this thread, I also wonder why ZAFT didn't give the Strike Freedom higher priority? I mean, with a new Gundam development program, it makes sense to create an improved Freedom (Strike Freedom), an improved Justice and an improved Providence (Legend) however ZAFT wasted time also developing the Impulse which was almost definitely a step backwards.

Why did they do that? Was it explained and could it have had anything to do with the Treaty and not wanting to show their full force too early?


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:01 pm 
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It's explained in Destiny Astray: The basis for the Impulse is the idea that due to the Junius Treaty, ZAFT would have a limit on how many Mobile suits it could field and how many weapons each could have (so would the Earth Alliance)

So, to get around that as much as possible while still appearing to comply, they intended for Every Mobile suit to be an Impulse Gundam. By equipping special weapons packs and being supported by Dragoon flyers to swap packs on the fly, they could always have the optimum weapons and equipment for any terrain.

Example. ZAFT have 1000 mobile suits. EA has 2000 suits available.

ZAFT field 1000 Abyss impulses in an amphibious assult. EA only has 500 of their Mobile suits as Forbidden variants.

Net result, despite their smaller limit, ZAFT outnumbers 2 to 1 against.

Of course, this only applies to stuff that's to be publicly seen: behind the scenes the Treaty don't mean diddly, but in public, machines using Nuclear power, Mirage Colloid and some other things like too many/powerful weapons were restricted by the treaty, and both sides wanted to be seen to abide by the treaty.

So, improved Freedom, Justice And Providence versions couldn't be openly researched without tripping a treaty violation (behind closed doors is another matter) because of their nuclear power (and without nuclear power they'd not have a useful combat duration; The GuAIZ EFT could only operate for five minutes on battery power).

Of course, once the treaty went out the window, thing's changed.


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