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 Post subject: Slash hariken jumping
 Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:35 pm 
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Good evening, sirs and madams. I had a rewatch of Code Geass season 1 recently, and a little something piqued my interest. (Look, I actually spelled the word "piqued" correctly. I'm making the internets a better place.)

Sometimes, a KMF would evade an attack or jump high into the air by firing one of its slash harikens into the ground. The KMF seems to be launched/pushed upward by the hariken's cable. While it looks really cool and makes slash harikens really useful, it doesn't actually seem possible to do considering how cable wenches work and...well, basic physics.

Should this be workable, and if not, how can it be made workable? Thoughts?

=o

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:45 pm 
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Just one of those It Looks Cool things. There's a couple slash harken tricks in the show that don't really make sense when you stop to think about them.


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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:14 pm 
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short answer, no it isn't workable

in fact the entire concept of the slash harken isn't workable. full stop.

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 Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:51 pm 
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yeah, its plain rule of cool. but since it did look cool, i am fine with it. 8)

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:43 am 
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blind_dead_mcjones wrote:
in fact the entire concept of the slash harken isn't workable. full stop.


Try telling that to Gasaraki, which came out eight years before Code Geass and actually depicted in realistic fashion the practical uses of robot-mounted winches.


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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:30 pm 
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Is it possible that the cable of a slash hariken behaves as a solid rod when it is deployed but flexes when drawn in? (You know, kinda like the metal band of measuring tape.) That's the only way a KMF should be able to hoist itself up with it. It can also explain how the cable portions are often used to strike with, such as with the Shen-Hu.

It's hard to say because whenever a cable is cut in the animation the KMF automatically reels it back in, so we can't see if the cable goes limp like a wire of if it stays solid like a rod. Does anybody remember an example of a hariken cable curving or bending mid-air?

Still, even if the cables can launch the KMF into the air, that means the winch motor that shoots the cable out has the most insane amount of torque you could ever imagine, spinning hard enough to launch a giant mech into the air at great speeds. That's something a KMF can barely do with its leg motors, and those have to be huge compared to the winch motor!

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 Post Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:13 pm 
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The Lancelot's slash harikens often curved their wires during flight as they could change direction thanks to rocket motors on them.

Ignoring the impossible power requirements of the winch motors, slash hariken jumping might be possible if the normally limp wire could be instantly made to be rigid on command. Carbon nanotubes mixed with some sort of ferromagnetic metal could align and lock with one another when a current is passed through them, and that would probably have the strength to lift a KF. But yeah, the winches would have to be insane (especially for their size) to launch a KF with the accel depicted in the series.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:12 am 
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Izayuukan wrote:
blind_dead_mcjones wrote:
in fact the entire concept of the slash harken isn't workable. full stop.


Try telling that to Gasaraki, which came out eight years before Code Geass and actually depicted in realistic fashion the practical uses of robot-mounted winches.


except for the whole rocket propelled and high speed retreval of said winch lines which is where the entire concept becomes unfeasible (that and the robots using muscles from 1000 year old daemons to move about)

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:23 am 
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Putting rockets on spikes is an awesome idea. Not all that difficult to do either; the key trick is to control the timing of when they turn downwards at the end of their flight. Course, you'd only get one or two uses before the fuel runs out, but hey, it isn't like the show overused them, so it isn't an issue. High speed retrieval of the line is even easier, my new Dyson-ripoff vacuum cleaner is a ninja pro at this. As for the TAs, when they kick off and upwards from the side the building they're scaling, the lines have slack that can be reeled in with ease. You my friend are grasping at straws.

And the muscles have nothing to do with the winches by the way. But even they - the muscles - are not unrealistic. You never see TAs doing Gundam-style acrobatics for example, and given that their muscles only have to move a machine which probably weighs less than three tons full laden, they don't have to be as proportionately strong as whatever is supposed to support an eighteen-metre tall, eighty-ton MS.

Like I said, you're grasping at straws. Trying to accuse Ryosuke Takahashi of not sticking to realism is a foolish endeavour. Except of course if you're talking about Blue Gender, in which case go right ahead. Hated that show.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:55 am 
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You just compared the retrieval of a vacuum hose to the retrieval of a giant metal spike, that is likely hundreds of Kg, mounted on a tightly woven metal cable. Grasping at straws huh?

Not to mention you think a TA weighs about 3 tons, just a little over two Honda Civics. Right.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:50 am 
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You obviously haven't seen Gasaraki, or you would know that the TAs are four to five metres tall. They weigh three tons, five with mission equipment. Guess they're a bit heavier than I thought but still nothing compared to a Gundam.

The spikes are less than a metre long, when the TAs hold them they act as oversized knives. You really want to assert that they would each weigh "hundreds of Kg"? Oh YOU. Thanks for the laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pi_qp-Wz2U


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Izayuukan wrote:
You obviously haven't seen Gasaraki, or you would know that the TAs are four to five metres tall. They weigh three tons, five with mission equipment. Guess they're a bit heavier than I thought but still nothing compared to a Gundam.

The spikes are less than a metre long, when the TAs hold them they act as oversized knives. You really want to assert that they would each weigh "hundreds of Kg"? Oh YOU. Thanks for the laugh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Pi_qp-Wz2U


No, unless you have stats those things are clearly 8m+ tall. Those tanks are likely 2.5-3m tall and the TAs stand well over them, maybe up to 3x their height. Even if they were 5m tall 5tons is just another unrealistic anime weight. Even lightweight tanks weight in at 50+tons and you expect people to believe a TA of comparable volume weights just 1/10? Anime fantasy as usual.

Hundreds of Kg. A 1mx1mx1m block of titanium (a lighter metal) weights over 4500Kg (almost 5 tons). That metal spike is by no means small, and the woven metal wire it clearly uses isn't short either. Get a grasp of reality.


Hmm, it somehow went to PM.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:54 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyPcApMj ... re=related

Look at 0:21, 0:33, 0:44, those shots have human-to-machine comparison shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0Me_wdY ... re=related

Go to about 1:36 in, you'll see the guy playing with the model. A 1 in 35 scale model by the way, as opposed to Gundam's 1/100 or 1/144. If his hands are the same size as mine, that model is about thirteen centimetres tall, which gives a scaled height of 4.55 metres.

http://www.animesou.com/?p=473

Ah, the money shot. These are the technical details for the competing TA, not the ones I've shown thus far, but the size is about the same. After all, both unit types are built on the same frame of artificial muscles.



The cube law tells us that an object 2.5 times taller than an average man will weigh 15.625 times as much, so if the man is 80kg then the TA would be 1,250kg. Even with metal being a lot denser than flesh and bone, 3,000kg is not impossible, since that does not include mission equipment like weapons, and the TA does have a large hollow space for the pilot.

TAs do not have the armour of a tank, plus they do not have large diesel or turbine engines. Five tons is not too far off. In a fit of hypocrisy you are complaining about a TA when you are quite happy to accept MS weighing in at anorexic figures. Eight tons for a MS in Wing? 34 tons for a MS in UC? Scaled up a MS should be over 125 tons, or two freaking M1A1 Abrams.

Gasaraki is one of the least egregious shows out there with mecha physics. The only one that's arguably superior is FLAG, made by the same freaking guy.

The whole spike + rocket assembly is only a metre long, you can tell when they're launched how big they are compared to the TA.

Your example with the titanium block is completely disingenuous. What makes you think that a cubic metre of anything has well, anything to do with a thin narrow spike??? Look at the pen on your desk. Fifteen centimetres long, one centimetre in diameter, give or take. Its volume is NOT 3,375cm3, but rather 11.78cm3. Therefore, extrapolating that out to your example of the cubic metre of titanium, a spike of pure titanium 1 metre long by 6.666cm wide (same proportions as the pen, just for example's sake) would weigh 15.7kg.

Tell me, how does 15.7kg come anywhere close to "hundreds of Kg" ?????????????????????



I've spent enough time proving you completely and utterly wrong, any more is unnecessary. I've actually supplied evidence and proper mathematics, and used logic. You've just brought bizarre arguments, logical fallacies, and your insistence on the 'facts' despite not having watched the freaking show in question.

Now, if you are going to actually respond in a rational and intelligent manner then that's great. As I sincerely doubt that you will, I will not be holding my breath.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:25 pm 
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oh for christ's sake

Calm down, both of you, or you both get the boot.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:27 pm 
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Izayuukan wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyPcApMjd04&feature=related

Look at 0:21, 0:33, 0:44, those shots have human-to-machine comparison shots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0Me_wdY ... re=related

Go to about 1:36 in, you'll see the guy playing with the model. A 1 in 35 scale model by the way, as opposed to Gundam's 1/100 or 1/144. If his hands are the same size as mine, that model is about thirteen centimetres tall, which gives a scaled height of 4.55 metres.

http://www.animesou.com/?p=473

Ah, the money shot. These are the technical details for the competing TA, not the ones I've shown thus far, but the size is about the same. After all, both unit types are built on the same frame of artificial muscles.



The cube law tells us that an object 2.5 times taller than an average man will weigh 15.625 times as much, so if the man is 80kg then the TA would be 1,250kg. Even with metal being a lot denser than flesh and bone, 3,000kg is not impossible, since that does not include mission equipment like weapons, and the TA does have a large hollow space for the pilot.

TAs do not have the armour of a tank, plus they do not have large diesel or turbine engines. Five tons is not too far off. In a fit of hypocrisy you are complaining about a TA when you are quite happy to accept MS weighing in at anorexic figures. Eight tons for a MS in Wing? 34 tons for a MS in UC? Scaled up a MS should be over 125 tons, or two freaking M1A1 Abrams.

Gasaraki is one of the least egregious shows out there with mecha physics. The only one that's arguably superior is FLAG, made by the same freaking guy.

The whole spike + rocket assembly is only a metre long, you can tell when they're launched how big they are compared to the TA.

Your example with the titanium block is completely disingenuous. What makes you think that a cubic metre of anything has well, anything to do with a thin narrow spike??? Look at the pen on your desk. Fifteen centimetres long, one centimetre in diameter, give or take. Its volume is NOT 3,375cm3, but rather 11.78cm3. Therefore, extrapolating that out to your example of the cubic metre of titanium, a spike of pure titanium 1 metre long by 6.666cm wide (same proportions as the pen, just for example's sake) would weigh 15.7kg.

Tell me, how does 15.7kg come anywhere close to "hundreds of Kg" ?????????????????????



I've spent enough time proving you completely and utterly wrong, any more is unnecessary. I've actually supplied evidence and proper mathematics, and used logic. You've just brought bizarre arguments, logical fallacies, and your insistence on the 'facts' despite not having watched the freaking show in question.

Now, if you are going to actually respond in a rational and intelligent manner then that's great. As I sincerely doubt that you will, I will not be holding my breath.


I'll give you the height since models confirm it, but everything else is bullcrap. First, you're scaling height and weight directly from a human being. The densest commonly found material in the human body is bone at around 1500kg/m^3 (an average). That is just short of 1/3 of the density of a light-weight metal like titanium. Even with a metal "a lot denser"? Try several times as dense as anything found en masse in the human body. Much less compared to water which is 2/9 the density of titanium. Metal and flesh and blood aren't comparable in ANY manner. As for armoring, the TAs clearly are armored no question about it. They may not have extra ceramic but the plating is built right in. Not that ceramic is even close to the bulk of a tank's weight.

Who said I was happy about the lawlphysics of gundam. We had a topic discussing the materials used in the construction of Gundams and I came to a conclusion that the material would have to be somewhere between 30-50% sparser than water. That was for Gundanium, used in Gundam Wing's gundams. With generous estimates for cockpit space and excess storage. The point is it's fantasy physics and Gasaraki is no different.

As for the spike and winch. You think they're 6.67cm (rounded)? We clearly see they have more than enough volume to expand into several claws and retain a central spike. You're saying the radius is just over 1in which is ridiculous in itself. No matter. I'd like to see the math you did to get 16kg from a spike 1m long, with a diameter of 0.0667m


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:55 pm 
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Okay, be calm. Got it.

The model also confirms weight of the entire machine.

I was assuming that the spike had the same proportions as the pen on my desk. Obviously it doesn't, but then also obviously the spike does not weigh one hundred kg let alone several hundred.

Therefore as above:
One hundred centimetres divided by fifteen gives 6.666cm diameter. Half that, 3.333cm. Square that, times the result by pi. Makes a cross section of 34.9cm2. Times by 100 centimetres, gives a volume of 3,490-odd cm3. Translate that from cubic centimetres into milligrams, assuming density of water; 3,490g. Times 4.5, which is how much denser titanium is than water; gives us 15,708g. Convert to kg by dividing by 1,000, gives an answer of 15.7kg. That is for a cylinder of titanium, not the sharp spikes that get used in the show.

I fully accept that the whole assembly is a lot thicker in proportion than my pen is, so the weight will be more. However, the point of the example was to prove that you are not even in the right neighbourhood in terms of weight. Given the 50kg weight of a hellfire missile - which is a lot bigger than the spike+rockets the TAs use - the weight is not going to be more than that, even accounting for all that titanium (which as I've proven does not weigh that much).

Human torsos are not hollow. Just thought I'd point that out for oh, the third time.

TAs are armoured, but not as heavily as a tank. I have already said that in the post you quoted. And again, this is where watching the show actually helps. They suffer damage that a MBT would have been able to shrug off.

Metal is indeed heavier than water, but who said the entire TA was made out of metal? Carbon fibre is less than 2g/cm3 (I've seen figures of 1.78 and 1.75). This is significantly less than the 2.7g/cm3 of aluminium and massively less than the 4.51g/cm3 of titanium.

Why do you lambast Gasaraki when it is so much more realistic than any Gundam show you care to name (including 08th MS Team)?


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:32 pm 
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Izayuukan wrote:
Okay, be calm. Got it.

The model also confirms weight of the entire machine.

I was assuming that the spike had the same proportions as the pen on my desk. Obviously it doesn't, but then also obviously the spike does not weigh one hundred kg let alone several hundred.

Therefore as above:
One hundred centimetres divided by fifteen gives 6.666cm diameter. Half that, 3.333cm. Square that, times the result by pi. Makes a cross section of 34.9cm2. Times by 100 centimetres, gives a volume of 3,490-odd cm3. Translate that from cubic centimetres into milligrams, assuming density of water; 3,490g. Times 4.5, which is how much denser titanium is than water; gives us 15,708g. Convert to kg by dividing by 1,000, gives an answer of 15.7kg. That is for a cylinder of titanium, not the sharp spikes that get used in the show.

I fully accept that the whole assembly is a lot thicker in proportion than my pen is, so the weight will be more. However, the point of the example was to prove that you are not even in the right neighbourhood in terms of weight. Given the 50kg weight of a hellfire missile - which is a lot bigger than the spike+rockets the TAs use - the weight is not going to be more than that, even accounting for all that titanium (which as I've proven does not weight much at all).

Human torsos are not hollow. Just thought I'd point that out for oh, the third time.

TAs are armoured, but not as heavily as a tank. I have already said that in the post you quoted. And again, this is where watching the show actually helps. They suffer damage that a MBT would have been able to shrug off.

Metal is indeed heavier than water, but who said the entire TA was made out of metal? Carbon fibre is less than 2g/cm3 (I've seen figures of 1.78 and 1.75).

Why do you lambast Gasaraki when it is so much more realistic than any Gundam show you care to name (including 08th MS Team)?


I'll give you the conversion rate based on .0666m diameter but I still don't agree with the actual diameter you're using.

A hellfire rocket isn't a metal spike. It's constructed atop a basic metal frame and is largely empty. The claws on the other hand clearly appear to be little more than metal spikes with other mechanical parts (which are also probably made of metal).

The TA's torsos aren't completely hollow either. There's just enough space to accommodate a single human being and apart from that it's filled with whatever electronics they could fit in. Also, using the model as an example since we know its weight, the TA has other parts that add mass. Like the head and backpack for example. Not to mention its torso and hips are much wider than an average man. At any rate the human scalar example isn't working out for anyone.

Must be helluva carbon fiber construct, because the few times you see carbon fiber being used in "sturdy" machines might be cars, but that's because cars have no reason to be armored and completely rigid unlike a bipedal war machine.

The problem is you're taking this too personally. I'm criticizing Gasaraki because it's relevant right now. Besides, I've already discussed the construction materials of Gundams in the past and I have no qualms about saying it's pure fantasy. As for 08th MS team being realistic: the show is designed like a bad drama, I don't think it's realistic at all.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:18 pm 
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Some of my threads have a tendency to go like this. Just relax. We're all friends with the same interests, right? :(

Geoxile wrote:
I'll give you the height since models confirm it, but everything else is bullcrap. First, you're scaling height and weight directly from a human being. The densest commonly found material in the human body is bone at around 1500kg/m^3 (an average). That is just short of 1/3 of the density of a light-weight metal like titanium. Even with a metal "a lot denser"? Try several times as dense as anything found en masse in the human body. Much less compared to water which is 2/9 the density of titanium. Metal and flesh and blood aren't comparable in ANY manner. As for armoring, the TAs clearly are armored no question about it. They may not have extra ceramic but the plating is built right in. Not that ceramic is even close to the bulk of a tank's weight.

Well....http://www.gizmag.com/petan-robot-video-released/20333/

This is an example of a real-world working robot that is fully articulate, yet weighs exactly the same as a human male of similar height. Given, it has no hands, head, or armor at this point, but clearly a robot can be built to be lighter than one would assume, and the scaling that Iza did earlier seems somewhat plausible, given a bare-bones robot. This is proof that says: being a robot does not equal being extremely dense and heavy compared to organic life, purely due to materials.

On the other hand, you can't just make up figures for things on a whim. The show gives in-universe stats for their mech, so that's what we have to base our conclusions on. Personally, we can argue whether or not those figures are realistic to us, but that still has no bearing on the facts for the show in-universe. We have to go by ~5m height and ~5 tons weight.

***

I have never seen Gasaraki, and I was very impressed by the "realistic physics and movement" of the video. (Though the fight was extremely boring and one-sided, just like any real-world mission with competent militaries, lol.) I give that the winch looks workable when it is lifting the TA up slowly, but I'm still hesitant on it being realistic for these reasons:

viewtopic.php?p=272262#p272262

In this earlier thread, one of the posters in this same thread about harikens repeated his argument against how cables and winches are portrayed, but in more detail. I think this is what we have to take into account.

Firing a cable: this is what I find the most problematic. These cables look like they are fired out with gunpowder, much like a harpoon gun. However, while harpoons are also projectiles with cables attached, the line is not rolled up in the winch while the gun is fired. The line has to be carefully laid out un-winched in a manner so the cable can extend while the harpoon is in flight. Firing the harpoon while giving it slack by un-winching the line would put too much tension on the line, and I think the harpoon either would not fly or it would break the cable. I do not believe KMF and TA have a mechanism for laying out their cables neatly before firing their spikes/hariken, but have to un-winch them.

Lifting the mech: this is plausible when done slowly (it can be demonstrated with a simple force diagram) but the problem is lifting quickly, and also how much does the mech weigh. You have to take into account the tension that the cable is put under while doing this, and even though TAs only weight 5 tons, I think we have to do research to see if this is plausible. I guess the easiest place to look is to study modern-day cranes to see how much they can lift and how quickly.

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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:43 pm 
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What you wrote about unwinching is interesting. I still don't think its a problem, because the lines are not shown to be under a great deal of tension (if any at all) when fired. But it was good of you to bring it up.

Seraphic wrote:
Though the fight was extremely boring and one-sided, just like any real-world mission with competent militaries, lol.


It was just a training exercise, and the tank battalion did not seem to have a command structure to facilitate tactics like the TAs did. Also, from what I remember, the guys in the tanks were not told what sort of enemy they would be facing, hence their reactions to seeing actual robots.

Seraphic wrote:
http://mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?p=272262#p272262


Whoops, I actually meant to say the Lancelot's harkens aren't practical in real life. firing them at the ground like that and being pushed up at a rate of knots is nothing like real-life. If you look closely at the line after that one (last line of the post), you can sort of tell what I actually meant. But yeah, that 'yes' is supposed to be a 'no'.

If it were possible, then it would be very useful in combat situations (as the TAs showed so well). But they sure as hell aren't practical to implement.


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 Post Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:11 am 
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Seraphic wrote:
Some of my threads have a tendency to go like this. Just relax. We're all friends with the same interests, right? :(


Well....http://www.gizmag.com/petan-robot-video-released/20333/

This is an example of a real-world working robot that is fully articulate, yet weighs exactly the same as a human male of similar height. Given, it has no hands, head, or armor at this point, but clearly a robot can be built to be lighter than one would assume, and the scaling that Iza did earlier seems somewhat plausible, given a bare-bones robot. This is proof that says: being a robot does not equal being extremely dense and heavy compared to organic life, purely due to materials.

On the other hand, you can't just make up figures for things on a whim. The show gives in-universe stats for their mech, so that's what we have to base our conclusions on. Personally, we can argue whether or not those figures are realistic to us, but that still has no bearing on the facts for the show in-universe. We have to go by ~5m height and ~5 tons weight.





The PETMAN is an example of a machine built within a reasonable scale. Strength of a material doesn't simply scale proportionately with increased mass. Plus the PETMAN so far isn't designed for any intensive movement, only basic movement mechanics. As with a scaled human example the PETMAN isn't a proper comparison. What you say the PETMAN proves isn't really relevant here. For that matter, no one said EVERY robot had to be made of extremely dense materials. I compared the constructs of a car which has completely different functions (like the PETMAN) from a several meter tall war machine.

As for figures...The only way to even discuss the topic is by estimating dimensions. If you mean the density figures those aren't made up.


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