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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:10 am 
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Japan wiki claims that the ones used in the attack on Belfast were early types and then later all the models were switched to the later type(S Type) during the assault on Jaburo.

I would just like to know the source of this claim.

There is also a little confusion with the early and later types of the Zaku Marine Type conveyed in the Zaku Mariner manual, as the former two uses the same name as the RMS-192M. (Scan available at 1999.co.jp)


Last edited by Calubin_175 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:20 pm 
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From what i have read the Z'gok s type was the commanders model fitting with all other Zeon ms having an Commanders model with higher specs than the normal unit unlike the other S type ms the Z'gok lacks an head antenna. We do not see the s type until after belfast where char operates an red unit in the jabaro attacks.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 2:09 pm 
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From the MSV series onwards, the Japanese sources have always claimed that Z'Gok production eventually shifts to the improved S type, which is often identified as the "later production type". It seems like the shift happens in November or thereabouts, before the Jaburo attack, but I don't think I've ever seen it stated that the S type had completely replaced the earlier version by that point. I'd say the wiki claim is a bit fishy. :-)

As for the MS-06M Zaku Marine Type - which the Zaku Mariner kit manual insists on calling "Zaku Mariner" - the kit manual describes two prototype versions, the M-1 and M-2. The M-1 was developed first, and had better underwater cruising speed but lower pressure resistance. The M-2 had waterproof seals on its joints, and a large monitor shield was added to protect its mono-eye. After the war, both types were deployed by the Federation Forces, with the M-1 type stationed at the Dakar base and the M-2 type stationed at New Guinea. The M-1 type, of course, is the "Zaku Mariner" seen in Gundam ZZ; by this explanation, it's based on the first prototype version of the MS-06M.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:22 am 
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I know that some of the advantages of the MSM-07S over the original model include:
-A more powerful generator
-Higher propulsion
-Optional "hands" with 4 iron nails instead of 3 (this is a feature of the MG kit).

Are there any other significant differences?

Regarding the MS-06M, so was the M-1 the prototype which was eventually modified into the RMS-192M? And if so, would that mean that the M-2 is the MS-06M/MSM-01 that we are so familiar with?


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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 5:06 am 
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Mahq lists the MSM-07S with higher reactor output and thrust, but I couldn't locate a source reflecting those stats. On Gundam wikia, even the latest illustration of the MSM-07S from the Okawara art book is listed with the same stats as the MSM-07, unless the commonly MSM-07 stats (2480kw) already refers to the later type.

Oddly enough, the MSV Handbook lists the vanilla Z'Gok or its entire line on that page as MSM-07S, not sure whether it is a typo.


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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 1:26 pm 
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According to the old MSV books:

Quote:
The S type, the later production model of the Z'Gok, was designed for higher reactor output, improved maneuverability, and lighter, stronger armor materials. Thus its performance was further increased, and depending on the pilot, it could produce better combat results than the Zaku class.


Which is restated as follows in the MSV Collection File:

Quote:
The functional evaluations performed by the test corps prior to mass production had indicated the need for greater efficiency in the fusion reactor and power systems, an accompanying extension of the operating time, and changes to the armor materials to increase survivability.


As for Gelgoog Jager's questions about the MS-06M: Yes, that's the upshot of the old kit manual.

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 6:05 pm 
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I think Entertainment Bible 1 confirms that the Zaku Marine Type M-1 is the RMS-192M due to their choice of line art.


Last edited by Calubin_175 on Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2011 7:14 pm 
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Calubin_175 wrote:
I think Entertainment Bible 1 confirms that the Zaku Marine Type M-1 is the RMS-154 due to their choice of line art.


Wait, does that mean that the M-1 is visually identical to the RMS-192M? I didn't quite expect that, mainly because I thought that much of its weapons were probably added by the Federation later on.

Could the fact that both the Galbaldy Beta and the Zaku Mariner were not deployed in combat by Zeon be the reason they do receive Federation model numbers unlike most of the other captured Zeon designs?


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 1:17 pm 
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Calubin_175 wrote:
I think Entertainment Bible 1 confirms that the Zaku Marine Type M-1 is the RMS-192M due to their choice of line art.

Only in the color catalog; everywhere else in the book, the MS-06M is depicted with the classic MSV design, and there's no reference to the Zaku Mariner anywhere else. So we can't rule out the possibility that this is a simple error.

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Wait, does that mean that the M-1 is visually identical to the RMS-192M? I didn't quite expect that, mainly because I thought that much of its weapons were probably added by the Federation later on.

That's what it says in the kit manual, but to be fair, the ZZ kit manuals make a lot of interesting claims that aren't echoed anywhere else.

Quote:
Could the fact that both the Galbaldy Beta and the Zaku Mariner were not deployed in combat by Zeon be the reason they do receive Federation model numbers unlike most of the other captured Zeon designs?

Maaaaybe, but it's not clear why the Zaku Mariner wouldn't have been deployed when the Zaku Marine Type was. For that matter, the Zaku Marine Type gets redubbed "Marine Hizack," which implies a lot more re-engineering. I'm inclined to just ignore the kit manual and assume that the Zaku Mariner has a Federation model number because it's a Federation design.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:50 pm 
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There seems to this issue with all the ZZ "new" models. a lot of new oyo models appear that look like from the line art to be Federation conversions of the Hi-zack The MS-06D models we see are supposedly the same vintage as the MSV model but physically look to be contemporary models based on the old Zaku D type. Unicorn decided to stick with ZZ's story that these are oyo built machines with some upgrades. My guess is that the Zaku Mariner name is what the invading Axis solders renamed the suit when the captured them. The same with the MSM-01 units we see in zeta had to be the test models for the RMS-192M my guess is that the focus of the RMS-192 line was to produce modernized versions of the MS-06 sub models based on the RMS-106 frame. I was kind of hoping that they would fold the Desert Zaku in to that line as the RMS-192. the real trick would be producing more since the production site was nuked in zeta.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:06 pm 
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Well given that the Z'gok is a leader-type MS anyway, wouldn't make sense to upgrade across the board to the more powerful S model? It would be a needful wartime modification, not too much a stretch. Or are we to believe that the basic Z'gok never changed, and was supposed to be supplanted by the Type E?

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:14 pm 
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Zeonista wrote:
Well given that the Z'gok is a leader-type MS anyway, wouldn't make sense to upgrade across the board to the more powerful S model? It would be a needful wartime modification, not too much a stretch.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of the Z'goks seen after the Battle of Jaburo are actually S-types. Who knows, maybe even the unit that will appear in Unicorn ep. 4 is actually an S-type, despite it's profile simply indicating it to be a regular MSM-07.

Zeonista wrote:
Or are we to believe that the basic Z'gok never changed, and was supposed to be supplanted by the Type E?

Regarding the MSM-07E replacing the MSM-07/MSM-07S, the answer actually seems to be yes (although it was indeed introduced too late in the war for that to happen):

toysdream wrote:
The MSM-07E Z'Gok E succeeded in enhancing the performance, and drastically reducing the cost, of the previous Z'Gok. Thanks to its standardized parts, and a redesign based on data obtained from the early production type, it had a very different appearance from the previous version. Its joints had an enhanced range of motion like those of the Gogg, thus expanding its attack radius, and the arms could be retracted to increase its underwater cruising speed. It was also equipped with one of the more efficient generators introduced in the later stages of the war, giving it much greater output. (Or rather, the previous early production type had a low ratio of output to volume.)

Check this thread for more information.


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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:34 pm 
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I have read the linked thread on the 0080 info, and it answered many questions. About the possibility of a given Z'gok being an S-type instead of the earlier type, I will agree that one could be as good as another. The externals are the same, it's the internals that would make the difference, and be hard to recognize. So a Feddy pilot wouldn't necessarily know if he was facing a first-production run or the improved S model. Maybe it's the S model, maybe the aqua-zeek knows his machine, maybe both are applicable, ne?

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:12 am 
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RMS-192M... As far as it is concerned, according to materials on the Unicorn series, the story is that the left over Zaku mariner series are taken over by the good old EFSF, when is upgraded and modified for their own use. Since the subsequent wars are expacted to be space only, ther are few developments on marine MS afterwards.

The second part of the story comes into place when Nex Zeon/Axis takes over these upgraded Zaku marine types for their own use, further upgrading their system and ability. So basically the RMS-192M series are just old school MS-06M with numerous replacements and upgrades. BUT judging from the stuff they can do with some of the refurnished MS, It may have been totally replaced with different mterial and power supply and what not, so the output should be much better than the original. It is still crap by the age of Gundam Unicorn, but there are few crap better than them... hack! EFSF is still using some Aqua GM!


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:45 pm 
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Enileph wrote:
The second part of the story comes into place when Neo Zeon/Axis takes over these upgraded Zaku marine types for their own use, further upgrading their system and ability. So basically the RMS-192M series are just old school MS-06M with numerous replacements and upgrades. BUT judging from the stuff they can do with some of the refurnished MS, It may have been totally replaced with different material and power supply and what not, so the output should be much better than the original.


The Zaku Mariner and its refurbished comrades are more akin to the usual reality of the UC mecha battalions. The hot prototypes and top-of-the-line models are for the elite forces and the units posted at the danger points. Everybody else gets the rebuilds and former hot properties. Still, upgrades to add utility without having to purchase an entire new system receive the blessings of High Command, ne? ;) Plus, the Zaku Mariner and Desert Zaku are Zakusafter all, made to handle a variety of roles without difficulty. So they soldier on...

As for the Aqua GM, well, nothing gets thrown away until it is quite obsolete beyond all hope of usefulness. That goes double for roles where something is better than nothing and a vital need for improvement has yet to be demonstrated to the people who authorize new equipment purchase. Having worked for Big Government (and Little Government) before and been required to use equipment older than some of the forum members here, I will firmly attest to this organizational principle! I know there are some of you out there who can also bear witness. :D I'd say the Aqua GMs soldier on as special-purpose machines for tasks only they can do. The EFF probably doesn't feel the need to develop marine MS when only 10 hostile U-Cruisers held out after 0079. From their macro view, it's easier to try to squash any Remnants' amphibious forces close to or on the shore, rather than expend resources trawling the seas for elusive targets.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:29 pm 
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Well there was a lack of reasons to build newer models the latest being the rms-192m. the EFN must of decided to just modernize the remaining aqua GM units to the GM II part spec and not build an aqua GM II.

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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:39 am 
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The question also lies in whether the Harmony of Gundam Aqua GM is treated as the same model as the M-MSV one. Most likely the former one will just be deemed as a minor tune up later type similar to how many of the alternate visual adaptations have been treated.

The ultimate amphibious MS is actually the M-MSV Hyakushiki Land Combat Type, at least in the Gihren's Ambition game.


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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:51 pm 
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I had forgotten that the Hyakushiki Land Combat Type was capable of underwater combat, but while in Gihren's Greed this unit may be the best Amphibious unit, this is probably just a game mechanic as Calubin pointed out, to make up for the lack of Federation Amphibious MS, especially by U.C. 0088.

Its profile only mentions the implementation of underwater seals and not any underwater combat gear, but more importantly, its unstreamlined form would probably lead it to have similiar underwater mobility problems like the ones that the Zaku Marine Type faced. Fortunately for it, as an AEUG/Karaba model, its main competence would be the Titans' Marine Hizack which suffers the same problems.

Anyone knows if there's any indication of the Federation or the Titans actually deploying some Zaku Mariners before Neo Zeon took back the design?


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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:14 pm 
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if anything it's like the RX-79[G] and MS-06Jc it was equipped with waterproof seals and can function in limited underwater combat but not for long periods. Post grypts the EFN seems to not develop "single man submarine" ms and just stick to deploying the stock RGM model with underwater seals for shore defense. we never see anyone build an aquatic MS until Zanscare invades earth and builds new ones. it seems that normally gundam only gives the bad guys the aquatic toys.

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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:39 am 
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The Capule remains to be the last amphibious MS with a aquatic use dedicated frame before UC0100. The profile states even though it was extremely high performance due to its streamline frame, since it was developed in Axis, it wasn't well trusted by Zeons left on Earth whom would prefer the Zaku Mariner instead.

Episode 24 of Gundam ZZ was where this mobile suit debuted and it was later lent to a mercenary youth from a Zeon pilot. I am not sure whether this Zeon pilot was from Axis or one whom remained on Earth, and he said he would be more familiar with the Zaku.


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