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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:44 pm 
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AEUG Slapping Boy

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Cmdr Harabec wrote:
Ceiling_Squid wrote:
The question I have then...does this mean that a VSBR can penetrate a more conventional I-field barrier, like what we see on the Big Zam and other mobile armors? If the I-field is the key to a beam shield's function here, I figure it would operate that way.


I can't recall any scene showing an I-Field stopping a VSBR in any media off the top of my head, but it's pretty well implied it would. We see that beam shields aren't limited to being broken by VSBRs in F91 - battleship fire tears through the beam shields with repeated hits. I-Fields have been known to stop such fire (and even more powerful weapons, as is the case with the X-3 mostly stropping the Divinidad's enormous built in head cannon) with little issues. The containment I-Field of beam shields and beam sabres etc are much weaker than the full power I-Field barrier systems, and thus more easily broken. Such is the trade off for requiring less power to utilize.

There is one instance I can recall of an I-Field barrier ever being "broken," and that's in Crossbone Steel Seven. The Patchwork X-1 puts up its I-Field directly in front of the Cornix's headmounted VSBR/beam cannon/whatever (shield piercing weapon, though, as seen in the first chapter when it pierces a Flint's beam shield) and the beam is sort of deflected, but it's so close it still hits part of the arm and melts it away. It's not really breaking it, but more it seems that the hand was so close to the barrier the beam could only be deflected so much. This is a little at odds with how we've seen the X-3's I-fields emit before, but perhaps it could have been forming and expanding or something. Who knows? At any rate, that's the only example I can think of.


Interesting. I haven't read Steel 7 myself, only the original Crossbone. I figure that era would be the only real source where we see VSBRs and I-fields interact. I'm curious as to whether the Cornix's headmounted weapon you mentioned was outright stated to be a VSBR or was simply powerful enough to overcome beam shields (such as the aforementioned battleship beams in F91)? Probably no clear answer on that matter, though, as vague as it sounds when you mentioned "whatever" there.

As someone who's interested in possibly running a Gundam game with Mekton Z tabletop that'll go into the late UC era, I suppose I'll have to just fudge it, not having any actual reference. I imagine that a VSBR set to max-penetration might be able to slip through an I-field with enough particle speed, but unfortunately the canon and semi-canon sources seem to be pretty silent on this. Maybe in-game I'll leave it to a percentile roll or something.


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 Post Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Well, keep in mind that all beam weapons are regulated by I-fields in UC-a beam shield is just an I-field filled with super-heated plasma. So if a VSBR can pierce the I-field of a beam shield, it can probably pierce a conventional I-field as well.

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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 6:04 am 
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prince_of_zeon wrote:
Well, keep in mind that all beam weapons are regulated by I-fields in UC-a beam shield is just an I-field filled with super-heated plasma. So if a VSBR can pierce the I-field of a beam shield, it can probably pierce a conventional I-field as well.


Well, the thing is there's a massive power discrepancy between a beam shield and an I-Field Barrier. The I-Field of a beam shield definitely isn't as strong as I-Field Barriers, that much is obvious. Were they then they'd require a much more significant energy drain.

As mentioned, it's not just VSBRs that penetrate them. Sufficiently powerful weapons - in animation battleship weapons in particular amongst a few other things - rip them to shreds. We've seen I-Fields tanking battleship weapons no problem throughout many productions.

Unless it was a very underpowered I-Field barrier (Unicorn's shield comes to mind) I don't think it'd have a problem stopping any run of the mill VSBR or high powered beam weaponry whatsoever. There might be something said for, I don't know, the high power V era stuff - Zanneck, Gottrlatan, V2AB - but I'd think anything rocking an I-Field Barrier with their same power capabilities would be able to stop an equivalently powered weapon. I-Field Barriers, aside from the one case in Steel Seven, have been shown to be virtually impenetrable walls. It's important to note that beam shields and sabres are just using relatively weak containment I-Fields in comparison, from what we know.

Also, no - the Cornix's cannon, as far as I know, isn't ever referred to as a VSBR. It just does pierce beam shields, is all.

EDIT: I am pretty certain Rafflesia stopped F91's VSBRs.


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:09 am 
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Retconned MSV Ace

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I don't think the F91 used the VSBRs against it. All I can recall is using its beam launcher.

In terms of the whole I-Field bit, it's most likely like the ones that are used to contain the Minovsky Particles of reactors where it's an inverted I-Field (as in facing inwards) to keep the mega particles of the beam shield/beam saber from simply dispersing out, so it wouldn't even be the I-Field itself that's deflecting beams, but the wall of mega particles hitting eachother. So when a much greater wall or much more focused line of them end up making contact, they either overwhelm the ones of the beam shield or just slip right through.

Otherwise, they simply "splash" against the beam shield/beam saber.

If the I-Field were to be facing outwards, like all defense-based ones do, they wouldn't even touch the mega particles otherwise, so it doesn't seem like a VSBR should be able to penetrate a straight out I-Field barrier.

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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:20 am 
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Cmdr Harabec wrote:
Well, the thing is there's a massive power discrepancy between a beam shield and an I-Field Barrier. The I-Field of a beam shield definitely isn't as strong as I-Field Barriers, that much is obvious.

Not necessarily. I-field barriers cover a much larger volume of space, a much further distance from their emitters, than beam shields do. While i-field emitters certainly take much more power than beam shields, it may be that beam shields are actually stronger barriers than i-fields over the smaller area that they cover.

As an example with made-up numbers: say an i-field barrier takes 100 kilowatts to power and covers an area of 1,000 square meters. That's 100 watts per square meter. If a beam shield takes 10 kW of power to cover 10 square meters, then that's 1 kw/m^2 -- ten times as powerful as the i-field over the area it covers.

Of course, we have no real idea if this is actually true or not. There's no evidence to support it either way, as far as I know. But I'm just saying that it isn't necessarily true that i-fields are more powerful.

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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:28 pm 
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VSBR vs I-field was previously discussed here: http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... w=previous

In summary: from knowing how VSBRs work and how I-field barriers work, the VSBR can pierce the barrier in theory, but we do not know the power requirements for that, and there exists no precedent in animation or manga.

HDI, there are some errors in your theory. "Inverted" I-field barriers don't exist because the force that repels Mega particles from minovsky particles is not polarized. It always repels, so even if you "flip the i-field barrier backwards" it will still repel.

A lot of your assessment is true, though. The i-field barrier basically behaves as a wall: For MS shielding, the wall keeps beam shots out; in reactors, it holds plasma in. There is no need to "invert" the field.

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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:29 pm 
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Ah, okay then.

I'd guess that the VSBR would need to be quite powerful in its focus at the very least to penetrate a "standard" defensive I-Field like we see on MAs.

But yeah, the problem is we never see the 2 directly interact in canon. F91 never depicted it that I recall and the VSBR of the Victory 2 Assault was only used ONCE (1 minute 28 seconds or so into episode 50 or so, IIRC, lol) and only took off the head of a MS and fired like a standard beam gun.

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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:10 am 
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Seraphic wrote:
VSBR vs I-field was previously discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12257&view=previous

In summary: from knowing how VSBRs work and how I-field barriers work, the VSBR can pierce the barrier in theory, but we do not know the power requirements for that, and there exists no precedent in animation or manga.


I suppose this makes some sense here, and was sort of the result I expected. It's a shame no obscure source has ever made the two interact.

As far as I-fields taking big hits from battleship weapons, that makes good sense if you compare such weapons to the "heavy damage" setting of a VSBR, with the slower-moving, deadly mass of particles. The thinner, faster particle stream of the "high penetration" VSBR setting might make it through. Only wish I had a definitive answer.

I suppose that will have to quench my curiousity for now, there being no forthcoming answer. I was mainly asking the question because I wasn't sure if the I-field of a beam shield and an I-field barrier were in any way different in how they interacted with incoming beams, and if the VSBR was a direct intended counter to that aspect of a beam shield. Thanks for clearing that up.

I think this wil be enough of an idea to take away to my tabletop game. I'll probably make it much harder for a VSBR to penetrate I-field barrier, given their proven strength against battleship beams that would overwhelm a beam shield. They've already got full 360 degree coverage and high power requirements, and beam shields have the benefit of dealing with solid projectiles and being compact and energy efficient (at the cost of less coverage and limited to no protection against overwhelming battleship particle beams and VSBRs.) Seems relatively balanced to me, I'll just have to fiddle with the system costs.


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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:58 pm 
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Ceiling_Squid wrote:
I'll probably make it much harder for a VSBR to penetrate I-field barrier, given their proven strength against battleship beams that would overwhelm a beam shield.

That's probably more a function of how much power is being shoved through it than any fundamental difference between the two. Recall that I-fields are almost exclusively mounted on mobile armors, which have much more power at their disposal -- I bet that if you put that much power into a beam shield, it could block battleship-class weaponry as well. In fact, isn't there somewhere where we see beam shields mounted on battleships? I imagine those aren't intended to be used against mobile suit weapons. Of course, I can't recall if we ever see a VSBR used against them...

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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:16 pm 
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Yeah Victory Gundam had battleships on both sides with beam shields mounted on their front. The Reinforce even uses it as a giant ramming beam spike in their final kamikaze run, so it was really more for defense against other ships and not MS outside of their initial frontal firing runs maybe.

The Totuga in Crossbone Gundam had a beam shield with enough power to block battleship beam cannons too.

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 Post Posted: Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:25 pm 
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HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
Yeah Victory Gundam had battleships on both sides with beam shields mounted on their front. The Reinforce even uses it as a giant ramming beam spike in their final kamikaze run, so it was really more for defense against other ships and not MS outside of their initial frontal firing runs maybe.

The Totuga in Crossbone Gundam had a beam shield with enough power to block battleship beam cannons too.


Ah, good catch, I'd forgotten about those! That makes things significantly more difficult here, because I don't recall VSBRs being used against those big, let's call them "battleship-grade" beam shields, either.


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